What are Matt's excuses this week?

[Second Deck]

I guess I am about the only one on this board that would like to see Matt get another shot once Kurt is finished. I still remember him having some good games when he was the starter. Hell Kurt has had some awful games also Carolina for instance. Sayin that I would certainly try and draft a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round.

 

[john h]

Two terrible throws and ints. Only saved on one due to a hold. He blows. You know he got a lot of reps this week too.

We should all be very concerned about Matt. Kurt could retire at any time including the end of this year. So far Matt seems to have zero progress and certainly does not appear to be the QB of the future. You would think he could read a defense a bit better after a couple of years of watching and playing an occasional game. I was shocked to hear that St Pierre had not played any more than he has in the past 4 years. I have this sinking feeling we are going to end up with some older QB in a year or two and start all over again in drafting a QB. It is unlikely we will get a good one in the draft as we are drafting to high. I just do not know where we are headed at the QB position and without a good QB forget about the playoffs. Maybe we will be lucky and find one in the lower part of the draft like #3 or #4. I know the coaches saw Matt just like we did, It was scary to say the least. I saw a guy playing a bit scared of making a mistake and not seeing the defensive backs. The #3 QB looked to me better than the other two but he did not play long enough to get a worthwhile appraisal.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

All the players you mention have shown the ability to score many many points from day one. Manning has scored three times as much for comparison early on. That's the difference between a HOF potential player and a backup. Ability to read the game and their accuracy is what allowed these players you mention to do that. Leinart has not shown that. That's the reason he can't score despite having much better weapons. All of these players have shown major improvement in limiting big mistakes already from second year in the league. Again, ML has not shown that, even in his backup role he seems to be performing worse and worse when given the chance. He seems to make more and more mistakes.

I don't see the slightest analogy here. He isn't even a shadow of these great players and yet you have made a comaprison to them. That's fantastic.

As for the excuse on letting it over to other players and saying they are failures for ML looking that bad consistently.. I don't buy that one either. He has had enough of games as a pro and has proved he can't light up the offense and score. Even when KW is in each and every sunday you have one or two guys not performing like they use to do. Either it's a tackle or a WR or whatever. He gets the job done and adjusts. It's regular to have some underperforming a given day. You have to live with that. Yesterday ML had relatively good time to make his throws. KW looks like MVP under harder conditions than that. Saying it's a pro bowler's fault (Woodson), I don't buy that either. Great QB's face these kind of players every week, they know when to stay away from throwing their way and when they can. And if they go their way they make accurate passes. It's especially against these type of players you get punished for inaccuracy.

There is absolutely nothing good in ML's game. Besides his draft status, being a first rounder, there is nothing on gameday to be excited about. Contrary, he is a liability being a backup on this team. Look up what HC's say about backups when they get the chance. Even if they have a horrible game you will always hear something positive being brought up anyway, simply to keep their confidence up. That's very common. Until recently people have made good excuses for Russell as well, people from within the organization. Without nothing good on tapes, they still found a way to keep the optimism up. "Works hard" , "progressing" etc etc. It's empty talk as we all know.

He has been nothing short of horrible as backup this year and could have costed us a playoff spot easy. You see these good backups arround the league that are doing so well, winning gameson their own like starting QB's, scoring TD's , and I just wish we had something like that too. We don't and that's why i think we will get a QB this offseason.

a couple things. What back-up QB has won games on their own this year? How could ML have cost us a playoff spot this year? Also, how has he had "enough games as a pro" to make any judgement. Is it those 6 games in the last 48 he started,1 in the last 32? I never heard anywhere where people gave Russel credit for working hard. In fact, it was the opposite.

I decided to look it up and see what league you've been watching where the backup QB's have stepped right in and lit it up. You may be a bit surprised that playing backup QB isn't as easy as many of you would like to us to believe. Here are the QB ratings for every backup QB's first game as a starter this year:The results may be offensive to some.

Vince Young- 114.1(didn't they want to run him out of town too.)
MATT LEINART-88.1
Josh Freeman-86.1
Daunte Culpepper- 83.4 he had a second stint after a layoff and was 33.3
Ryan Fitzpatrick-82.2
Seneca Wallace-75.8
Alex Smith-74.7
Bruce Gradkowski-73.5
Kevin Kolb-73.2
Matt Moore-73.1
Derek Anderson-68.8
Josh Johnson-67.6
Kellen Clemens-65.7
Dennis Dixon-60.6
Chris Redmond-56.5
Chris Simms-56.2
Kyle Boller-48.6
Mark Brunnell-45.5
Chad Henne-44.2
Brian Brohm-43.2
Kevin Null-38.7
Charlie Frye-38.4
Drew Stanton-31.9
Brady Quinn-23.5


so, you're right the Cards are in terrible shape. Those other backups are doing so well in comparison.But don't let the stats/facts get in the way of your argument.

 

[john h]

Shane, just like I posted below before he came in. This is a great opportunity to evaluate what he has. Playing with the first string in a regular season home game; no excuses.

The few remaining Leinart supporters will point to the fact that he didn't get enough reps with the starters during the week. But you and I both know that this is complete garbage; Leinart has had year after year of reps with this high powered offense and still cant place the ball where it belongs.

We should be in a position to draft Tony Pike. I say take him

Some of quoted stats in support of ML in comparison with other your QBs. Stats are just part of the equation and perhaps not even the most important part. Is the guy a leader in the huddle and does he show that characteristic in the locker room. Can he read a defense. Can he look off defenders? Is he progressing on a weekly basis? How many interceptions per throw is he making? How do his fellow players look at him. We do not see the interface between ML and the other players. They may not hang together and he may even be treated like a pariahs. I can see that Kurt spends time with him on the field. I do not see many other players hanging with him on the field. Anyone with a sense of knowledge of football can get a feeling about a QB as he is out front on every offensive play. Do you feel comfortable when Matt comes in? I can truthfully say I do not. I thought we had struck gold when we drafted Matt and could not have been happier. Clearly he dropped down for a reason. Other coaches saw something they did not like. As I have posted he came from a program where he was surrounded by future NFL players. Even other 1st round choices like two RB's. His OL at USC gave him all day and his running game all combined to make Matt look like a future all pro. I thought so. Alas it is not to be. The speed of the game and not being on a team that could dominate nearly all its opponents made Matt look better than he really was IMHO. I think the coaches and GM will start looking this off season. If Kurt retires they are likely to sign an older experienced guy who at least has been able to play at the NFL level with some success. Down deep I have really wanted Matt to be our future because if he is not we are in trouble for some years to come as I do not see any QB on this team that is NFL qualified as a starter.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Paging AZ finest among the other Leinart Apologists...like everyone else, was really hoping we had our QBOTF, but after yesterday, I'm even more convinced we don't. Matt has just not progressed at all, and he had the entire starting cast in yesterday and still looked awful. I was hoping at worst Matt could be a game manager as we turned our focus to the run game with Beanie, but at this point that looks too optimistic.

I predict that many here will be very sad when Kurt leaves, without a great QB, there is little chance of winning in the NFL, and Kurt's time is short.

 

[Zeno]

so, you're right the Cards are in terrible shape. Those other backups are doing so well in comparison.But don't let the stats/facts get in the way of your argument.

C'Mon CBus don't let facts ruin a good argument.

 

[Early]

a couple things. What back-up QB has won games on their own this year? How could ML have cost us a playoff spot this year? Also, how has he had "enough games as a pro" to make any judgement. Is it those 6 games in the last 48 he started,1 in the last 32? I never heard anywhere where people gave Russel credit for working hard. In fact, it was the opposite.

I decided to look it up and see what league you've been watching where the backup QB's have stepped right in and lit it up. You may be a bit surprised that playing backup QB isn't as easy as many of you would like to us to believe. Here are the QB ratings for every backup QB's first game as a starter this year:The results may be offensive to some.

Vince Young- 114.1(didn't they want to run him out of town too.)
MATT LEINART-88.1
Josh Freeman-86.1
Daunte Culpepper- 83.4 he had a second stint after a layoff and was 33.3
Ryan Fitzpatrick-82.2
Seneca Wallace-75.8
Alex Smith-74.7
Bruce Gradkowski-73.5
Kevin Kolb-73.2
Matt Moore-73.1
Derek Anderson-68.8
Josh Johnson-67.6
Kellen Clemens-65.7
Dennis Dixon-60.6
Chris Redmond-56.5
Chris Simms-56.2
Kyle Boller-48.6
Mark Brunnell-45.5
Chad Henne-44.2
Brian Brohm-43.2
Kevin Null-38.7
Charlie Frye-38.4
Drew Stanton-31.9
Brady Quinn-23.5


so, you're right the Cards are in terrible shape. Those other backups are doing so well in comparison.But don't let the stats/facts get in the way of your argument.

Eventough i don't like using this rating to measure how the QB has played, Matt Leainart's QB rating is 66 this year which puts him behind alot of these guys mentioned. Why would you use only one game as measure? He still doesn't have a TD this year despite 77 attempts. You can't win games in that way, playing afraid, trying to avoid picks. That's the feeling i get watching him play, he plays not to win and to rip of the defense, he just plays to avoid the pick, simply because he can't read the game and make the difficult throws. He can't light the offense up, as starter or a backup = fact. His rating yesterday after being as good as a starter with so many time out there is 33...

Matt Moore has double of the amount of attempts.. He has 8 TD's already.... His rate is 100 now... and he has 2 INT's.. Already a positive TD/INT ratio, something Leinart hasn't been able to do despite much more chances, time on the field, much better targets. Yes Matt Moore has won some games for them this year, contributed to the win ,rather than just managing the victory home. Now that's what QB's do, score to win the games.

Yes there is a reason that so many backups have low ratings, it's because most of them can't grasp the game. Some teams out there have few capable backups that can score, and that makes them more complete teams but also with better future.

 

[stewdog1]

Vince Young- 114.1(didn't they want to run him out of town too.)
MATT LEINART-88.1
Josh Freeman-86.1
Daunte Culpepper- 83.4 he had a second stint after a layoff and was 33.3
Ryan Fitzpatrick-82.2
Seneca Wallace-75.8
Alex Smith-74.7
Bruce Gradkowski-73.5
Kevin Kolb-73.2
Matt Moore-73.1
Derek Anderson-68.8
Josh Johnson-67.6
Kellen Clemens-65.7
Dennis Dixon-60.6
Chris Redmond-56.5
Chris Simms-56.2
Kyle Boller-48.6
Mark Brunnell-45.5
Chad Henne-44.2
Brian Brohm-43.2
Kevin Null-38.7
Charlie Frye-38.4
Drew Stanton-31.9
Brady Quinn-23.5


so, you're right the Cards are in terrible shape. Those other backups are doing so well in comparison.But don't let the stats/facts get in the way of your argument.

But how many of those are supposed "Franchise QBs of the future"?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Eventough i don't like using this rating to measure how the QB has played, Matt Leainart's QB rating is 66 this year which puts him behind alot of these guys mentioned. Why would you use only one game as measure? He still doesn't have a TD this year despite 77 attempts. You can't win games in that way, playing afraid, trying to avoid picks. That's the feeling i get watching him play, he plays not to win and to rip of the defense, he just plays to avoid the pick, simply because he can't read the game and make the difficult throws. He can't light the offense up, as starter or a backup = fact. His rating yesterday after being as good as a starter with so many time out there is 33...

Matt Moore has double of the amount of attempts.. He has 8 TD's already.... His rate is 100 now... and he has 2 INT's.. Already a positive TD/INT ratio, something Leinart hasn't been able to do despite much more chances, time on the field, much better targets. Yes Matt Moore has won some games for them this year, contributed to the win ,rather than just managing the victory home. Now that's what QB's do, score to win the games.

Yes there is a reason that so many backups have low ratings, it's because most of them can't grasp the game. Some teams out there have few capable backups that can score, and that makes them more complete teams but also with better future.

are you trying to make my point for me? If so, thanks. You just said how Matt Moore has improved on his first game as a starter. Yet you think ML can't. The reason i used that 1 game is because IT WAS THEIR 1ST GAME AS A STARTER coming from off the bench like Leinart did.I think it's a pretty fair comparison because they were all in the exact same situation. In fact Leinart was probably in a worse situation because he didn't know he was getting the nod until game day. The other guys had all week to prepare. They all struggled and then got better.The fact that ML's first game was better than all of them but one gives me some hope.Obviously you think differently. My whole point has been guys get better with more playing time. That was why i used guys like Manning, Favre,and Aikman. They all got better the more they played after struggling. Unless you think Leinart is the only QB that has played in the NFL that won't improve with more playing time i don't see how you cannot see this.

I'm done here. I've made my point ad nauseum. Leinart may be good or he may be bad we won't know until he plays more. You don't agree and think he's the worst QB to hit the league in years and can never improve. That's your opinion, fine with me.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Well I was waiting for this thread. And you got me. I can't for the life of me get while he airmails EVERY THROW. I got no excuses for that showing yesterday. He needed to play better.

Gotta draft a QB in the 2nd or 3rd next year and let him fight it out with Matty in TC.

 

[Pariah]

But how many of those are supposed "Franchise QBs of the future"?

8-10

 

[Shane]

are you trying to make my point for me? If so, thanks. You just said how Matt Moore has improved on his first game as a starter. Yet you think ML can't. The reason i used that 1 game is because IT WAS THEIR 1ST GAME AS A STARTER coming from off the bench like Leinart did.I think it's a pretty fair comparison because they were all in the exact same situation. In fact Leinart was probably in a worse situation because he didn't know he was getting the nod until game day. The other guys had all week to prepare. They all struggled and then got better.The fact that ML's first game was better than all of them but one gives me some hope.Obviously you think differently. My whole point has been guys get better with more playing time. That was why i used guys like Manning, Favre,and Aikman. They all got better the more they played after struggling. Unless you think Leinart is the only QB that has played in the NFL that won't improve with more playing time i don't see how you cannot see this.

I'm done here. I've made my point ad nauseum. Leinart may be good or he may be bad we won't know until he plays more. You don't agree and think he's the worst QB to hit the league in years and can never improve. That's your opinion, fine with me.

I know you said you are done. But your list of B level players really isnt supporting your case. Almost all of those players on that list weren't considered the next coming of Joe Montana coming out of college or the most complete NFL ready QB to come out in 15 years. Many are just lucky to be on an NFL roster.

Yes timing is an issue. But you guys use it and throw it out there entirely to much as a crutch. Matt has been in this exact system for 3 years. He knows the playbook and knows where those WR's are supposed to be. Matt even as the # 2 does get reps with the starters every week of the NFL season and quite a few during training camp.

It is not to much to ask for Matt to come in here and play turnover free football and be accurate with his throws. Rather than looking like a deer caught in headlights who is scared and takes his check downs far to often. He just isnt calm or comfortable out there. It plainly obvious. He after being taught by a HOFer in THIS SYSTEM for 3 seasons should be comfortable with what he is doing. He isn't. There really is no excuse for that.

Liken it to Aaron Rodgers who sat behind a HOF QB for 3 years learning a system. When he got his first chance in the Cowboys game in Texas stadium that Favre got hurt in he shined and played really well and was completely comfortable with what he was doing. He knew the plays and he learned from watching Favre. Then when he started and had his first full TC as the starter he took that bull by the horns and was impressive. Never looked back. Matt has had the same opportunities. He looks bad. He looks uneasy. He looks uncomfortable. Thats just not right IMO.

 

[Shane]

8-10

I count 3. Smith, Boller and Quinn.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Liken it to Aaron Rodgers who sat behind a HOF QB for 3 years learning a system. When he got his first chance in the Cowboys game in Texas stadium that Favre got hurt in he shined and played really well and was completely comfortable with what he was doing. He knew the plays and he learned from watching Favre. Then when he started and had his first full TC as the starter he took that bull by the horns and was impressive. Never looked back. Matt has had the same opportunities. He looks bad. He looks uneasy. He looks uncomfortable. Thats just not right IMO.

This.

I have always compared Matt to Aaron in that they were sitting behind HOF QB's and waiting for their opportuntiy.

Sadly Matt is no where near Aaron's level and I would'nt have thought that coming out of college.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Liken it to Aaron Rodgers who sat behind a HOF QB for 3 years learning a system. When he got his first chance in the Cowboys game in Texas stadium that Favre got hurt in he shined and played really well and was completely comfortable with what he was doing. He knew the plays and he learned from watching Favre. Then when he started and had his first full TC as the starter he took that bull by the horns and was impressive. Never looked back. Matt has had the same opportunities. He looks bad. He looks uneasy. He looks uncomfortable. Thats just not right IMO.

This.

I have always compared Matt to Aaron in that they were sitting behind HOF QB's and waiting for their opportuntiy.

Sadly Matt is no where near Aaron's level and I would'nt have thought that coming out of college. And I LOVED Aaron Rodgers coming out of Cal.

 

[Pariah]

I count 3. Smith, Boller and Quinn.

Here's where I got my range:

Vince Young- 114.1
MATT LEINART-88.1
Josh Freeman-86.1
Alex Smith-74.7
Kevin Kolb-73.2
Matt Moore-73.1
Kellen Clemens-65.7
Kyle Boller-48.6
Chad Henne-44.2
Brady Quinn-23.5

 

[stewdog1]

I count 3. Smith, Boller and Quinn.

Maybe 5 when you throw in Leinart and Freeman. But the point is that most of those will be career backups.

Except for Chad Henne, I'm not sure if I would be relying on any of those guys to be my starter.

 

[Shane]

Here's where I got my range:

Vince Young- 114.1
MATT LEINART-88.1
Josh Freeman-86.1
Alex Smith-74.7
Kevin Kolb-73.2
Matt Moore-73.1
Kellen Clemens-65.7
Kyle Boller-48.6
Chad Henne-44.2
Brady Quinn-23.5

I didn't count VY because he isnt a BU anymore. But you are right. Also didn't count Leinart because he is what the whole topic is about that was a given. I was referring to those other than Matt.

I say freeman, kolb, moore, clemens, and henne not so much. JMO.

 

[earthsci]

I say freeman, kolb, moore, clemens, and henne not so much. JMO.

Freeman was a first rounder. Kolb was the 4th pick in the second and Philly's first pick that year. That pretty much puts you in the QBOF range.

 

[Shane]

Freeman was a first rounder. Kolb was the 4th pick in the second and Philly's first pick that year. That pretty much puts you in the QBOF range.

Possibly. I can see your line of thinking absolutely. But many teams grab QB's in the later 1st round and 2nd etc.. as a project with the skills they hope they can turn into a franchise QB. They still arent considered the surefire top 10-15 picks who are supposedly locks to be your QBOF. IE the Manning's, Leaf's Youngs, Staffords of the world.

 

[conraddobler]

No he wasn't.

LOL.

I would of worn them if I was him.

Seriously looks like we're on the hunt for a Kurt replacement when he retires, that's tough to replace btw.

He's clustered now, for whatever reason he's just sinking into a pit.

 

[Pariah]

I recognize there's room for debate on some of those, but Henne is most certainly the QBoF in Miami. In fact, he's probably even bypassed that to become the QB of Now for them.

Same with Freeman in Tampa.

But, like I said, it's subjective...I just think those guys were/are supposed to be "it" in a couple of years if not sooner.

My comment on the overall thread: No, Leinart did not look good yesterday; not at all. Is it reason for concern? Yes. Is it reason to give up on him? I don't think so. Should the Cards be thnking about someone who can possibly step in if he continues to look bad next year? Yes, probably a vet or a mid-rounder if the value is there.

JMHO

 

[Buckybird]

Anyone think Leinart is still a little gunshy about taking a hit because of the injuries? After thinking about it I think this could be part of the problem because he just doesn't seem to be the same confident kid that was drafted here. How can a guy go from being a solid rookie to sometimes looking totally lost?

 

[Mitch]

It starting to look like the game is passing him by. When many other young QBs have come in and established themselves as starters, Leinart has elected to wallow in the backup role to Kurt Warner. I said this at the time and I will say it again, any young QB worth his weight in salt, would not have quietly accepted the backup role for another two years when Warner re-signed with the Cardinals. Leinart should have made overtures about getting traded because the market was thin and high for QBs this off-season and because he's wasting away years that could have helped in his real development, which means starting and playing. Whether he was trade or not, it would say a lot if he took a stand, rather than being passive-resistive.

Leinart had a certain mystique coming out of USC...but he's lost that mystique and lost it entirely. He looked great on a national stage in the Bears game and looked like he had a real future as a starter in the NFL...but after that game he went into a funk, and quite honestly, he has never come out of it.

These cameo appearances for the Cardinals obviously have not helped him or his stock. Those who argue, hey, he was behind a HOFer in Warner, and that's understandable, no longer have this an excuse. Leinart has been in Whiz's system for three years now. For him to come into games and essentially throw the ball up for grabs with one of the better WR units in the league is disconcerting. The disparity in Leinart's play versus Warner's is alarming.

Character issues will always plague him until he proves himself to be tough-minded and gritty and all business on the football field. His doubters have all the leverege right now.

 

[Buckybird]

The concerns about Leinart are legit.