What McD is looking for in player

[JCSunsfan]

Well, we are seeing a pattern.

1. Efficiency. This seems to be his #1 requirement. In fact, he looks for this more than overall production, size, even athleticism. Every player he has brought to this team is highly efficient offensively. He seems to determine this by advanced stats (PER ratings etc) not just the eye-ball test.

2. Reasonable contract. He seems absolutely unwilling to sign a bad contract, even if it twists a player or agents shorts. He isn't cheap, but seems to want to have contracts that can be traded at any time.

3. Loyalty seems to be there, but only within limits. It didn't matter that Frye had a heart issue, that he had resurrected his career here, that this is his home town etc. All those things are good and recognizable, but it doesn't justify over paying a player (in McD's mind).

4. Will pay for a star player. His pursuit of LeBron and Bosh makes that clear.

I like it. I know Sarver must like it. McD won't waste his money. It does seem to be a formula for success long term.

 

[Errntknght]

Anthony Tolliver doesn't fit that bill... his per is 11.01 which is way below average. His only real efficiency is 3 pt shooting (.413 last year) but his scoring rate is down in the dirt - 10.9 pts per 36 minutes. I think McD must have watched him playing, videos if nothing else, and decided he'd fare much better than that in the Suns style.

To me there was a serious red flag with Tolliver - his rebounding rate (per 36) has been steadily and rapidly dropping for five seasons: 8.1, 7.8, 6.2, 5.8, 4.7. Rebounding isn't only effort but effort plays a major role and those numbers tell me that Tolliver is simply not playing hard. Now it might be that McD also decided that Tolliver would spring back to life in a Suns uni but I'm very dubious.

 

[Mainstreet]

Anthony Tolliver doesn't fit that bill... his per is 11.01 which is way below average. His only real efficiency is 3 pt shooting (.413 last year) but his scoring rate is down in the dirt - 10.9 pts per 36 minutes. I think McD must have watched him playing, videos if nothing else, and decided he'd fare much better than that in the Suns style.

To me there was a serious red flag with Tolliver - his rebounding rate (per 36) has been steadily and rapidly dropping for five seasons: 8.1, 7.8, 6.2, 5.8, 4.7. Rebounding isn't only effort but effort plays a major role and those numbers tell me that Tolliver is simply not playing hard. Now it might be that McD also decided that Tolliver would spring back to life in a Suns uni but I'm very dubious.

I think Anthony Tolliver falls under the category of reasonable contract more than efficiency. He can shoot the 3 as a stretch 4 which helps the Suns spread the court. IMO, McDonough will be using the combination of the Morris twins and Tolliver to replace Frye.

 

[elindholm]

The Tolliver signing reminds me of Hakim Warrick. Warrick wasn't a three-point shooter, but otherwise they play similar roles.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Tolliver signing reminds me of Hakim Warrick. Warrick wasn't a three-point shooter, but otherwise they play similar roles.

I don't see the Warrick comparison other than they are both PFs. Tolliver job will be to shoot the 3 and be a hustle player.

 

[Errntknght]

The Tolliver signing reminds me of Hakim Warrick. Warrick wasn't a three-point shooter, but otherwise they play similar roles.

As a generality I can see the parallel and if Tolliver doesn't change quite radically I can see about the same end result...

 

[Mainstreet]

As a generality I can see the parallel and if Tolliver doesn't change quite radically I can see about the same end result...

Maybe I'm missing something. Warrick could not spread the floor, Tolliver can. If you are talking about an absence of defense, then I can see the comparison.

 

[Superbone]

Totally different players (literally and figuratively).

 

[95pro]

can't compare those two...

 

[AzStevenCal]

Has Tolliver changed that much? The last time I remember watching him play he was a pretty good defender? I wonder what happened?

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

The reason I said I could see Eric's comparison as a generality is that both were signed to provide some offense while having liabilites on the the defensive end. Their offensive contributions were/are quite different and so are their failings on D - Warrick couldn't defend at all but his defensive rebounding was okay. In Tolliver's case he defends fairly well but can't rebound worth a dam. A further parallel IMO is that Warrick didn't seem to care that he was useless defending and Tolliver doesn't seem to care much about gathering rebounds - what else would account for such a dramatic decline?

 

[elindholm]

The reason I said I could see Eric's comparison as a generality is that both were signed to provide some offense while having liabilites on the the defensive end. Their offensive contributions were/are quite different and so are their failings on D - Warrick couldn't defend at all but his defensive rebounding was okay. In Tolliver's case he defends fairly well but can't rebound worth a dam. A further parallel IMO is that Warrick didn't seem to care that he was useless defending and Tolliver doesn't seem to care much about gathering rebounds - what else would account for such a dramatic decline?

The other similarity is that both are undersized combo forwards, in the similar stages of their careers when the Suns picked them up, with very erratic track records, and an apparent strange hope within the organization that we'll be getting their best versions of themselves, even though no one else really wanted them.

 

[Phrazbit]

The Tolliver signing reminds me of Hakim Warrick. Warrick wasn't a three-point shooter, but otherwise they play similar roles.

I was thinking the same thing but with another paralell. Warrick was brought in as Amare's replacement, a player with (theoretically) a similar skill-set, only much much worse. Tolliver is here to be a lesser version of the stretch 4 that Frye was.

I've liked a lot of what we've done this off season but I think the Tolliver signing was too much of an effort to fit a specific void. He might fit the void but he is so bad at everything else I doubt he will see the court much. At least its a short term deal.

 

[Mainstreet]

The other similarity is that both are undersized combo forwards, in the similar stages of their careers when the Suns picked them up, with very erratic track records, and an apparent strange hope within the organization that we'll be getting their best versions of themselves, even though no one else really wanted them.

I think the Suns believe Tolliver can return to the form he played with GS as they play similar styles. The question mark for me, can he keep up his 3 point shooting percentage.

 

[elindholm]

and an apparent strange hope within the organization that we'll be getting their best versions of themselves

I think the Suns believe Tolliver can return to the form he played with GS as they play similar styles.

Right, that's pretty much what I meant.

 

[hcsilla]

I really don't see how can we describe Tolliver as a bad signing.

If things go wrong, he is simply an expiring contract.

 

[Covert Rain]

The title of this thread almost sounded like a dating thread. I half expected to see a list like this:

1. Faithfulness
2. Dependability
3. Kindness
4. Moral Integrity
5. Fatherliness

At least McD could say he has the warm and fuzzy about our players.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Deleted

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The reason I said I could see Eric's comparison as a generality is that both were signed to provide some offense while having liabilites on the the defensive end. Their offensive contributions were/are quite different and so are their failings on D - Warrick couldn't defend at all but his defensive rebounding was okay. In Tolliver's case he defends fairly well but can't rebound worth a dam. A further parallel IMO is that Warrick didn't seem to care that he was useless defending and Tolliver doesn't seem to care much about gathering rebounds - what else would account for such a dramatic decline?

I think the fact that he has played a lot of SF the last few years and that he hangs out mostly on the perimeter on offense doesn't help. His rebounding rates weren't bad earlier in his career when he was playing mostly the 4 spot, but has dipped the last few years while playing a lot at the 3 spot.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Tolliver did a pretty good job marketing himself as a very efficient scorer off the bench. His focus was this last year and improvements he has made. One news report said that he and his agent sent a 30 page booklet to all the GM's with advance stats touting just this. It is true that his eFg% was 58.6 last year.

http://www.82games.com/1314/13CHA13.HTM

He was 12th in the league in this category and 4th among non-centers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=efg_pct#stats::none

 

[KloD]

One of the things I like about Tolliver when looking over his stats, he doesn't drop off when playing on the road. In fact he seems to be a little more efficient on the road than at home. He's consistent. You pretty much know what you are going to get out of him night to night. He's not going to play big minutes or have a big role off the bench, but he does his job and seems to be a good guy and is likely a good mature focused vet to have in the locker room and coming off the bench.

 

[Joe Mama]

The other similarity is that both are undersized combo forwards, in the similar stages of their careers when the Suns picked them up, with very erratic track records, and an apparent strange hope within the organization that we'll be getting their best versions of themselves, even though no one else really wanted them.

you keep repeating this, but it isn't true. Just because the guy is 6'8" tall doesn't mean he is undersized for power forward. His standing reach at the time he was drafted was 8'11.5", and he weighed 242 pounds. I'd be shocked if that isn't well above the league average for power forwards. His natural position is power forward, and my guess is that his rebounding numbers will go up as he gets back to that position.

In no way am I saying he's going to replace Channing Frye and we won't miss a beat. Kind of slow, average at best defender… yes, I'm right there with you. He just isn't an undersized power forward.

Joe

 

[Errntknght]

Looking over Charlotte's +/- I can see that Tolliver played mostly at SF which makes his rebounding numbers less ghastly. If I thought he was going to play SF for us I'd be less worried but I have little doubt he's going to play mostly at PF because we will want him to pull an opponent's big out of the paint. Marcus and PJ do a decent job of pulling the SF's out already. (Also competing with Warren, PJ and Marcus he'd almost never get on the floor.)

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I think some people don't like the Tolliver signing because they see "2 Yr. / 6 million" .... But because only 400K is guaranteed in the 2nd yr., it is basically a 3.4 million 1 year contract w/ a team option for the 2nd year if he plays amazing .... Since we have so much cap room (so not like he's taking money away from a potential FA), it would be really hard to argue this is a bad signing

Assuming he comes off the bench, it'll be interesting to see him w/ Len. I have confidence in Len's inside game and playing w/ a stretch 4 he will be forced to use it, as opposed to shooting jumpers like he did in the SL game when paired w/ Plumlee

 

[elindholm]

I think some people don't like the Tolliver signing because they see "2 Yr. / 6 million" .... But because only 400K is guaranteed in the 2nd yr., it is basically a 3.4 million 1 year contract w/ a team option for the 2nd year if he plays amazing .... Since we have so much cap room (so not like he's taking money away from a potential FA), it would be really hard to argue this is a bad signing

I don't have a problem with the salary. I just think it's unlikely that Tolliver is going to bring anything of real value to the roster.