What most of the mad people are really mad about? Vent here!

[1tinsoldier]

if "the market settles the value of players." no GM ever under or overvalued a player in history

you can't assume Jones effectively negotiated the best possible deal with 29 other teams. it's far more likely, and apparent, that he got out-played by a few of them (prematurely sacrificing #32 as one example)

 

[Mainstreet]

Uh I think it’s been somewhat established that jones cooked the value of TJ by leading with an offer of 32 when Indiana wasn’t expecting such. That wasn’t the market setting the value.

And really my quibble with JJ and TJ isn’t that jones didn’t get value at the time, but rather that he rode the assets to their lowest value and then sold low.

Still there were 28 other teams besides that could have bid on Warren besides Indiana.

The point James Jones could have disposed of Warren and Jackson earlier is valid. It's hard to know ahead of time on some of these things though.

 

[Phrazbit]

To answer your question:

https://www.nbadraft.net/2019-nba-draft-combine-athleticism-testing

His jump numbers are pretty much the lowest at the combine, and his speed numbers are more comparable to power forwards and centers than to point guards.

You are consistent. Even moves that you claim to like you crap all over.

I bet you're a peach at a restaurant; "Sir, how were your eggs cooked as you like?"... "Yes, exactly over-easy... I hated them."

 

[1Sun]

odd. this time last year i don't recall anyone saying it was a bad off-season
Ayton, Bridges, Okobo, Crawford, got rid of Chriss and Knight... even the Ariza signing was mostly applauded by analysts and fans

The biggest problem was the ridiculous overload on wings (including trading away the Miami pick to draft one and then signing another as the only major free agent signing) while leaving gaping holes at point guard and power forward. Last year's offseason was atrocious for this reason and for the questionable hire of Igor Kokoskov, and I have argued that Ryan McDonough should have been fired as soon as the season was over, rather than being trusted with last year's offseason despite his very poor track record.

That being said, while this year's offseason was better in some respects (namely filling the hole at point guard with someone halfway decent), it was worse in others (namely management of assets and draft capital, management of the cap, targeted players overall and contract negotiations).

 

[Chaplin]

Still there were 28 other teams besides that could have bid on Warren besides Indiana.

The point James Jones could have disposed of Warren and Jackson earlier is valid. It's hard to know ahead of time on some of these things though.

Jumping to the conclusion that James Jones is an idiot is quite a leap IMO.

 

[Phrazbit]

Still there were 28 other teams besides that could have bid on Warren besides Indiana.

The point James Jones could have disposed of Warren and Jackson earlier is valid. It's hard to know ahead of time on some of these things though.

I think it's easier to argue he could have disposed of him later. Within 24 hours of free agency starting there were a ton of teams who whiffed on their targets and had tons of space, I cannot fathom how Warren wouldn't have been a real asset in that market and it was a situation that was obviously going to happen. Trading him during the draft made very little sense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I large agree with most of this. On an individual basis. I might disagree with magnitude you’ve assigned to some of the elements, but you’ve captured my perspective looking at assets as business assets.

Where I might depart from your analysis is when I take 10 giant steps back and view everything in the aggregate. We went from no real pg to an absolutely viable starting pg. we went from no pf to an absolutely viable starting pf (we can argue fit, but saric absolutely fits a gaping chasm we had previously). We were a dreadful 3 pt shooting team and we’ve taken quite a few steps to eject poor shooters largely replacing them with at least adequate to projected good shooters.

So while on an asset-by-asset basis I think jones has done a poor job of maximizing value, I absolutely see what the plan was in terms of team construction. There’s inherent value to that. Does it outweigh the lost value on individual assets? I guess we’ll see . . .

This is fair. Is it better to overspend for what you need, or get a really good deal on what you don't need? McD, bless his heart, (and I admit I was one of his defenders to the end) was really great on stock piling deals in sort of the NBA version of a home shopping network hoarder. He got great deals on everything at the moment he bought, but in the end it was junk and he had a house full of stuff that he could never use but would not get rid of because he paid so much for it.

 

[Chaplin]

I large agree with most of this. On an individual basis. I might disagree with magnitude you’ve assigned to some of the elements, but you’ve captured my perspective looking at assets as business assets.

Where I might depart from your analysis is when I take 10 giant steps back and view everything in the aggregate. We went from no real pg to an absolutely viable starting pg. we went from no pf to an absolutely viable starting pf (we can argue fit, but saric absolutely fits a gaping chasm we had previously). We were a dreadful 3 pt shooting team and we’ve taken quite a few steps to eject poor shooters largely replacing them with at least adequate to projected good shooters.

So while on an asset-by-asset basis I think jones has done a poor job of maximizing value, I absolutely see what the plan was in terms of team construction. There’s inherent value to that. Does it outweigh the lost value on individual assets? I guess we’ll see . . .

This is the middle ground I think that makes a lot more sense than the Chicken Little Sky Is Falling responses to this offseason.

 

[Mainstreet]

Jumping to the conclusion that James Jones is an idiot is quite a leap IMO.

I guess you are addressing a different audience because I never said such a thing.

 

[JCSunsfan]

odd. this time last year i don't recall anyone saying it was a bad off-season
Ayton, Bridges, Okobo, Crawford, got rid of Chriss and Knight... even the Ariza signing was mostly applauded by analysts and fans

No. We were still in the euphoria of drafting Ayton. Plenty on this board were scratching their heads over the Ariza signing and we were all eagerly waiting for a point guard. Once we entered the season without a point guard, we knew it was a disaster. I tried to reason that maybe Igor's offense did not really need a pure pg, but that was just wishful thinking.

 

[1tinsoldier]

this time last year, the hiring of Igor was widely perceived as a positive, myself included

during the season, filling the point guard hole with Rubio was widely frowned upon (you included 1sun)
i know because i suggested Rubio (before i saw him in action a couple of games midseason)

btw, i also advocated trading Warren when his stock was at it's highest last season and suggested Jackson for a variety of trades when his stock was high

 

[Mainstreet]

I think it's easier to argue he could have disposed of him later. Within 24 hours of free agency starting there were a ton of teams who whiffed on their targets and had tons of space, I cannot fathom how Warren wouldn't have been a real asset in that market and it was a situation that was obviously going to happen. Trading him during the draft made very little sense.

This is a valid point. I'm glad you brought it up.

A new GM might not understand the market. This could have happened with James Jones much like Steve Kerr attaching two first round picks to move Kurt Thomas. I don't think Kerr realized Thomas had postive value. I bet he wouldn't do that again.

 

[JCSunsfan]

this time last year, the hiring of Igor was widely perceived as a positive, myself included

during the season, filling the point guard hole with Rubio was widely frowned upon (you included 1sun)
i know because i suggested Rubio (before i saw him in action against us for a couple of games midseason)

I flip flopped on Rubio. However, with the addition of the shooting this summer, Rubio now makes more sense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The point James Jones could have disposed of Warren and Jackson earlier is valid. It's hard to know ahead of time on some of these things though.

But that’s why you pay GM. Literally anyone could sell low and have add assets to rid themselves of a player. If your GM isn’t better than “it’s hard to know ahead of time” it’s time to get a new GM.

 

[Raze]

I large agree with most of this. On an individual basis. I might disagree with magnitude you’ve assigned to some of the elements, but you’ve captured my perspective looking at assets as business assets.

Where I might depart from your analysis is when I take 10 giant steps back and view everything in the aggregate. We went from no real pg to an absolutely viable starting pg. we went from no pf to an absolutely viable starting pf (we can argue fit, but saric absolutely fits a gaping chasm we had previously). We were a dreadful 3 pt shooting team and we’ve taken quite a few steps to eject poor shooters largely replacing them with at least adequate to projected good shooters.

So while on an asset-by-asset basis I think jones has done a poor job of maximizing value, I absolutely see what the plan was in terms of team construction. There’s inherent value to that. Does it outweigh the lost value on individual assets? I guess we’ll see . . .

Actually I mostly agree. I was purely arguing from an asset by asset position. The team, as a whole is better next year. But the argument has been made by numerous experts that they could have done better (including an amateur like myself). A lot better.

I'm not arguing where we are, I'm arguing how much better off we could have been.

 

[1Sun]

You are consistent. Even moves that you claim to like you crap all over.

I bet you're a peach at a restaurant; "Sir, how were your eggs cooked as you like?"... "Yes, exactly over-easy... I hated them."

Again, given how this offseason was handled and is being handled, how could anyone possibly say that the Suns did "exactly as I like"???

I have maintained from day one that while I like Jerome overall as a prospect, he has way too many question marks regarding how his game will translate to the NBA to be projected as a potential starter and therefore was not worth the haul the Suns paid to get the pick to draft him.

Here is what the Suns have netted from this offseason:

A legitimate, albeit below average, starting point guard.
Two back-up power forwards, one average one for a single year and one below average one for two years.
Two back-up point guards.
A back-up wing shooting specialist.
A below average back-up center for a single year.

Here is what the Suns have given up this offseason:

A legitimate starting small forward.
A back-up point guard.
An above average back-up center.
A below average back-up power forward.
A head case wing who still has all-star potential talent.
An average back-up shooting guard.
A future first round pick (from Milwaukee).
A 2019 high second round pick.
A 2021 second round pick.
A 2022 conditional second round pick.
All of their cap space.
All of their trade assets.

Meanwhile, here were the Suns needs heading into this offseason (with + meaning the need has been filled, ? meaning the need remains and - meaning that the need is now even greater):

Starting Point Guard +
Back-Up Power Forward +
Character/Leadership in the Locker Room +
Passing +
Shooting +
Starting Power Forward ?
Rebounding -
Rim Protection/Shot Blocking/Interior Defense (Whatever you want to call it) -
Athletic Talent -
Scoring -
Defense -

Remove a re-signed Oubre from the equation, and I don't see how that could be anything but an F, given that the Suns acquired relative to what they gave up this offseason, and given the number of needs that went unaddressed or exacerbated despite what the Suns gave up this offseason. And that's without factoring in how clumsily Jones handled the vast majority of his transactions, how he miscalculated the Suns' cap room and ended up making a desperation trade as a result, how poorly the Oubre negotiations will have been handled if this happens, and the fact that Jones was actually targeting the likes of Terry Rozier and Cory Joseph before he lucked into Rubio.

Now, IF Oubre re-signs, then we don't add a second starting wing among what the Suns have given up, and Athletic Talent, Rebounding and Scoring go from "-" to "?", which in my opinion results in a "C" offseason.

 

[1Sun]

Actually I mostly agree. I was purely arguing from an asset by asset position. The team, as a whole is better next year. But the argument has been made by numerous experts that they could have done better (including an amateur like myself). A lot better.

I'm not arguing where we are, I'm arguing how much better off we could have been.

This. 1,000 times this.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Actually I mostly agree. I was purely arguing from an asset by asset position. The team, as a whole is better next year. But the argument has been made by numerous experts that they could have done better (including an amateur like myself). A lot better.

I'm not arguing where we are, I'm arguing how much better off we could have been.

Yeah I get that.

 

[Mainstreet]

But that’s why you pay GM. Literally anyone could sell low and have add assets to rid themselves of a player. If your GM isn’t better than “it’s hard to know ahead of time” it’s time to get a new GM.

Hopefully there is a learning curve but my patience has limits especially when it comes to keeping Oubre on a multi-year contract.

Rubio and Oubre is not that hard. The Suns could have been a player for other free agents if they were not willing to pay him.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Actually I mostly agree. I was purely arguing from an asset by asset position. The team, as a whole is better next year. But the argument has been made by numerous experts that they could have done better (including an amateur like myself). A lot better.

I'm not arguing where we are, I'm arguing how much better off we could have been.

Well said. Nobody is arguing that the team isn't better - last year was an unmitigated disaster, and it would be almost impossible to be worse.

That said - what's the goal and what's the vision? The end result of all these machinations is a really bad team, with Booker/Ayton/Bridges really the only pieces of consequence. We maxed out our cap, traded away all our assets, and for what? Fighting our asses off for 30 wins and what?

There's no reason to think we'll be anything other than a bottom 5 team this year, and all our acquisitions have pretty much ensured we'll remain irrelevant, with little upside on the roster.

James Jones showed nothing as a GM in an interim role (other than gifting his buddy Tyson Chandler, and accidentally trading for Oubre), and a universally panned offseason is certainly not encouraging.

McD and his rebuilds were a disaster, but at least they gave some hope.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well said. Nobody is arguing that the team isn't better - last year was an unmitigated disaster, and it would be almost impossible to be worse.

That said - what's the goal and what's the vision? The end result of all these machinations is a really bad team, with Booker/Ayton/Bridges really the only pieces of consequence. We maxed out our cap, traded away all our assets, and for what? Fighting our asses off for 30 wins and what?

There's no reason to think we'll be anything other than a bottom 5 team this year, and all our acquisitions have pretty much ensured we'll remain irrelevant, with little upside on the roster.

James Jones showed nothing as a GM in an interim role (other than gifting his buddy Tyson Chandler, and accidentally trading for Oubre), and a universally panned offseason is certainly not encouraging.

McD and his rebuilds were a disaster, but at least they gave some hope.

All of our core pieces are young, still developing and on the roster for multiple more years and we are set up to have a lot of cap space next off season as well. We still have all of our own first round picks.

I fail to see this absolutely hopeless position that you are speaking of. We have a young developing roster with a ton of upside and a lot of cap flexibility moving forward. All of that is while also having put together a much deeper and more balanced roster with a legit starting PG to boot.

 

[1Sun]

Well said. Nobody is arguing that the team isn't better - last year was an unmitigated disaster, and it would be almost impossible to be worse.

That said - what's the goal and what's the vision? The end result of all these machinations is a really bad team, with Booker/Ayton/Bridges really the only pieces of consequence. We maxed out our cap, traded away all our assets, and for what? Fighting our asses off for 30 wins and what?

There's no reason to think we'll be anything other than a bottom 5 team this year, and all our acquisitions have pretty much ensured we'll remain irrelevant, with little upside on the roster.

James Jones showed nothing as a GM in an interim role (other than gifting his buddy Tyson Chandler, and accidentally trading for Oubre), and a universally panned offseason is certainly not encouraging.

McD and his rebuilds were a disaster, but at least they gave some hope.

For me, it's about what we netted in exchange for what we gave up, what we could (and should) have netted instead, and how James Jones implemented that process.

 

[1Sun]

All of our core pieces are young, still developing and on the roster for multiple more years and we are set up to have a lot of cap space next off season as well. We still have all of our own first round picks.

I fail to see this absolutely hopeless position that you are speaking of. We have a young developing roster with a ton of upside and a lot of cap flexibility moving forward. All of that is while also having put together a much deeper and more balanced roster with a legit starting PG to boot.

As they noted on two different shows on KTAR today, the Suns are in grave danger of having money next summer and nobody on whom to spend it. This was the summer to acquire talent, not next summer (especially since we no longer have anything of value to trade in exchange for talent, should we decide to go the trade route and absorb the talent into our cap space).

 

[1tinsoldier]

also, the "hindsight", "no one could have predicted" defense doesn't suffice either

a few here would insist i'm no genius but in addition to multiple posts of me suggesting selling Warren and Jackson high, i several times suggested extending the contracts of Holmes and Oubre (relatively low) mid-season when they had demonstrated they were high energy, defensive minded players.

1tin for GM 2020

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

As they noted on two different shows on KTAR today, the Suns are in grave danger of having money next summer and nobody on whom to spend it. This was the summer to acquire talent, not next summer (especially since we no longer have anything of value to trade in exchange for talent, should we decide to go the trade route and absorb the talent into our cap space).

Except there is more value to cap space than just signing free agents. Such as making trades where you take back much more salary than you send out. Cap space is only a bad thing if you both have nowhere to spend it and decide to use it unwisely just for the sake of using it.