What the heck is the FO doing""""
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Man, I can't wait until the regular season starts and people can start complaining about games and such instead of this garbage.
GREAT post. I could not agree more.
I wish more people would read this before posting. And then refrain from posting.
azsouthendzone
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The reason the Cardinals are on the rise is because they have drafted well, not FA. Even the most impact FA Edge should have been replaced by Peterson in the draft. The reason we played in the Super Bowl is because we drafted Boldin, Fitz, Dockett, Wilson, ect...not because we threw away money at player like Ed Hartwell. Remember that guy? I remember everyone on here freaking out because we didn't sign him to a billion dollar deal. Same thing new year.
BigRedArk
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Who is the other player besides McFadden? I missed that news.
CardsFan88
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I wouldn't exactly say warner isn't worth the money. Things are relatively close. The cards (if reports are accurate) have offered 10+ (per clayton a few days back) and perhaps somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12. Because it's that close I will hope it gets done.
In this era, every year we see quite a few players get huge deals. Some warrant them, most do not. But what they are worth is generally whatever the market value is. The market has been drastically over-paying players the past few years. Thus whatever we think is too much, in reality isn't, because that is what the market is telling us. We may feel a guy is only worth 5 per year, but in today's NFL free agency, that means they'll be signed for 10 per year. If the market doesn't dictate it, then no player is worth more than 1 million a season for playing a game. But the market does dictate it, and it's dictating somewhere in the 10-14 million range for Warner.
It's not just in fa. Many teams re-signed their players to huge contracts as well, overpaying for them as well.
Over paying is the name of the game right now. Great, good, and average players are all going to be overpaid from our perspective.
Look at D. Hall. Two years in a row he's signed at least a 50 million dollar contract. Calvin Pace contract was laughable. The list *seems* almost endless over the past few years. Overall, even if they aren't worth it, that's what it takes to get them.
Most average-good ol are getting 7 per season. We even signed Al Johnson for 7 per two seasons ago.
The draft is becoming ever more important. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years via the economy. But even if it is having an impact this season, you can't notice it yet. They say after the top tier, will be the drop off, but we'll see. You probably won't be able to say that next season. But until lead is turned into gold, it's still lead, and thus teams are forced to overpay to keep or acquire talent.
So we are in the process of teams overpaying, and that being the standard. Next year's fa class will be interesting to see. But until the precedent is broken, expect mid tier guys to get contracts worth more than the top players at their position made 5 years ago.
So when you look at Warner 12-14 to me isn't that much. I'd much rather pay that to him, then sign A. Smith for 7. If not for the economy, I would say get used to it. Either overpay or lose your players.
We're in the shakedown phase, but ultimately we should be prepared to pay Warner. If not we're making a big mistake imo.
I would also say what happened after the 1998 season can be nearly equaled if we lose everybody.
There is a difference though, we imo have a much better team minus the players in question this year, as we had minus those players after the 1998 season. Lomas Brown had 2-3 good years, Centers had I believe 1 more good season. Jamir Miller blew his knee out (was it 1999 or 2000). All in all, looking back we could of kept the team together for another season, and you never know about Jamir Miller. We should have gone for it, but the players we lost turned out to be losing much of their steam. Thus I have to downgrade via hindsight on what exactly we lost after that season. It was heartbreaking though, and what if's did cross my mind about the 1999 season, but beyond that we were destined to go downhill imo considering all the other players we had on the roster and subsequent drafts.
Arrington is going into his prime, whatever that means, but he did play his best football last season, same with A. Smith. Warner played better than any QB the Cardinals have had. Losing him would be a big blow as well. Cutting James is important as well. He may not have flashy stats, but he is by far the most productive rb we've had since they've been in AZ. I've said it before and I said it again. Players not nicknamed 'Edge' would have gained 200-300 less yards than edge got, sans last year.
Hopefully we don't lose Warner, and I would still rather keep edge, but Edge is probably gone. Warner is still probably imo has 80 percent chance to re-sign. Over paying on a 2 year contract isn't nearly as damaging.
So personally if we lose the above, it very well could turn out to be even steven when compared to 98. The only difference is again, we have a much better talent on the team besides those guys now then we had in 99.
Overall I'll sit back and wait to see what happens. I believe I will be a bit mad if we lose everybody and sit on 10 million cap space. If we lose Warner, imo we can still get to the playoffs through our division, but it might be a 7-9 division title. Our ceiling in other words will be much lower with any other QB, unless someone like 'The Saint' comes out like gangbusters. Since that is doubtful, we should expect a serious drop off at QB play, however I would love to be pleasantly surprised. I just don't see it.
Pay the man. We got the room to overspend on someone. If anyone it should be him rather than another mediocre guard for 8 million a season. Of all the pieces on the table, he's the most important one imo. We'll definitely be worse imo without him next season (if it should happen), but it won't break the team. It might limit our chances for 09 but for 2010 it's A dub, (potentially Dansby), Dockett, and how we do this year and next year's draft that will impact us more going forward.
Anyways at this point, no need (for me) to talk about Warner any more until he either signs with us or somewhere else.
In this era, every year we see quite a few players get huge deals. Some warrant them, most do not. But what they are worth is generally whatever the market value is. The market has been drastically over-paying players the past few years. Thus whatever we think is too much, in reality isn't, because that is what the market is telling us. We may feel a guy is only worth 5 per year, but in today's NFL free agency, that means they'll be signed for 10 per year. If the market doesn't dictate it, then no player is worth more than 1 million a season for playing a game. But the market does dictate it, and it's dictating somewhere in the 10-14 million range for Warner.
It's not just in fa. Many teams re-signed their players to huge contracts as well, overpaying for them as well.
Over paying is the name of the game right now. Great, good, and average players are all going to be overpaid from our perspective.
Look at D. Hall. Two years in a row he's signed at least a 50 million dollar contract. Calvin Pace contract was laughable. The list *seems* almost endless over the past few years. Overall, even if they aren't worth it, that's what it takes to get them.
Most average-good ol are getting 7 per season. We even signed Al Johnson for 7 per two seasons ago.
The draft is becoming ever more important. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years via the economy. But even if it is having an impact this season, you can't notice it yet. They say after the top tier, will be the drop off, but we'll see. You probably won't be able to say that next season. But until lead is turned into gold, it's still lead, and thus teams are forced to overpay to keep or acquire talent.
So we are in the process of teams overpaying, and that being the standard. Next year's fa class will be interesting to see. But until the precedent is broken, expect mid tier guys to get contracts worth more than the top players at their position made 5 years ago.
So when you look at Warner 12-14 to me isn't that much. I'd much rather pay that to him, then sign A. Smith for 7. If not for the economy, I would say get used to it. Either overpay or lose your players.
We're in the shakedown phase, but ultimately we should be prepared to pay Warner. If not we're making a big mistake imo.
I would also say what happened after the 1998 season can be nearly equaled if we lose everybody.
There is a difference though, we imo have a much better team minus the players in question this year, as we had minus those players after the 1998 season. Lomas Brown had 2-3 good years, Centers had I believe 1 more good season. Jamir Miller blew his knee out (was it 1999 or 2000). All in all, looking back we could of kept the team together for another season, and you never know about Jamir Miller. We should have gone for it, but the players we lost turned out to be losing much of their steam. Thus I have to downgrade via hindsight on what exactly we lost after that season. It was heartbreaking though, and what if's did cross my mind about the 1999 season, but beyond that we were destined to go downhill imo considering all the other players we had on the roster and subsequent drafts.
Arrington is going into his prime, whatever that means, but he did play his best football last season, same with A. Smith. Warner played better than any QB the Cardinals have had. Losing him would be a big blow as well. Cutting James is important as well. He may not have flashy stats, but he is by far the most productive rb we've had since they've been in AZ. I've said it before and I said it again. Players not nicknamed 'Edge' would have gained 200-300 less yards than edge got, sans last year.
Hopefully we don't lose Warner, and I would still rather keep edge, but Edge is probably gone. Warner is still probably imo has 80 percent chance to re-sign. Over paying on a 2 year contract isn't nearly as damaging.
So personally if we lose the above, it very well could turn out to be even steven when compared to 98. The only difference is again, we have a much better talent on the team besides those guys now then we had in 99.
Overall I'll sit back and wait to see what happens. I believe I will be a bit mad if we lose everybody and sit on 10 million cap space. If we lose Warner, imo we can still get to the playoffs through our division, but it might be a 7-9 division title. Our ceiling in other words will be much lower with any other QB, unless someone like 'The Saint' comes out like gangbusters. Since that is doubtful, we should expect a serious drop off at QB play, however I would love to be pleasantly surprised. I just don't see it.
Pay the man. We got the room to overspend on someone. If anyone it should be him rather than another mediocre guard for 8 million a season. Of all the pieces on the table, he's the most important one imo. We'll definitely be worse imo without him next season (if it should happen), but it won't break the team. It might limit our chances for 09 but for 2010 it's A dub, (potentially Dansby), Dockett, and how we do this year and next year's draft that will impact us more going forward.
Anyways at this point, no need (for me) to talk about Warner any more until he either signs with us or somewhere else.
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red desert
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losing Smith is not good, I dont think the people behind him will replace him as easily as some of you think.
I do agree that if they sign warner for anything more then 12 million let him go. I would also love if the cards could trade boldin for some draft picks to fill some holes. We didn't skip a beat without him and he has been pretty injury prone the last few years.
I do agree that if they sign warner for anything more then 12 million let him go. I would also love if the cards could trade boldin for some draft picks to fill some holes. We didn't skip a beat without him and he has been pretty injury prone the last few years.
red desert
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40 million. 5 million. WHO CARES!!
Resign who we have to resign. And bring on who we have to bring on.
Build a team to win -- NOW.
BW52
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glad to see some fans who agree and don`t turn into drama queens because The FO hasn`t thrown dollars at players just to make a splash and pacify some fans.Cards_Campos
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WOW...This is funny. You guys say teams build through the draft. Hello...But I hate to break it to you...The Cardinals have been building through the draft, FA or whatever for 50 years!!! and We made it to the Super Bowl last year because we had a unstoppable passing game. I mean Fitz stole the show but Warner was so accurate with most his passes...it handcuffed teams. Listen to how the Eagles and Steelers both said...Warner and Fitz completely befuddled them sometimes.
Now you guys want to start over and go through the draft.
mmm Lets see...Based on this illogical statement...How did the Falcons go from 2-14 to 11-5? 1 drafted player and 3 FA signings. Turner made them. And yes Matt Ryan was key but they drafted top 3! Of course you can build when u pick that high.
Miami...mmm 1-15 and won division...How? maybe 1 drafted player again...the others..all FA's!!!
You guys say all this wisdom and then sit around and pat each other on the back...when if you really look at it...Drafting players works to a point....but you can instantly become good with the right free agents....these guys are proven players!!!
Now you guys want to start over and go through the draft.
mmm Lets see...Based on this illogical statement...How did the Falcons go from 2-14 to 11-5? 1 drafted player and 3 FA signings. Turner made them. And yes Matt Ryan was key but they drafted top 3! Of course you can build when u pick that high.
Miami...mmm 1-15 and won division...How? maybe 1 drafted player again...the others..all FA's!!!
You guys say all this wisdom and then sit around and pat each other on the back...when if you really look at it...Drafting players works to a point....but you can instantly become good with the right free agents....these guys are proven players!!!
82CardsGrad
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I'm one of the biggest Warner fans on this board, but you are dead wrong...
Yes, we had an unstoppable passing game, in part due to Kurt, but much more so because of:
- Brown, Lutui, Sendlien, Wells and Gandy. 4 of whom were DRAFTED by the Cards, and one of whom was a late, relatively cheap FA signing.
- A solid Defense led by: Dansby (DRAFTED), Wilson (DRAFTED), Hayes (Drafted), Dockett (DRAFTED), Berry (late, relative cheap FA), Okeafor (late, relative cheap FA), Rolle (DRAFTED), DRC (DRAFTED)...
- Ken Whisenunt...
I'm done...
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Cards_Campos
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DUDE they have been here for quite some time..and we went 6-10 8-8...It all clicked this year. Just because we make 1 Super Bowl doesnt mean the draft will get us there next year. I would like to argue..I still rather have Andrian Peterson over Brown too. The draft builds winners sometimes...yes...but if they become good they all leave to the highest bidder. The window in the NFL is SMALL and you have to kick the door in fast. Teams come and go...ie Miami and Atlanta....Teams must make quick fixes or it is bye bye....I'M done!
FO: Kurt, we're prepared to offer you 22m over 2 years with 12 m guaranteed.
Agent: Are you crazy? Kurt deserves 29 m over 2 years with 18m guaranteed. Our phone has been ringing off the wall.
FO: Really. Tell you what. Go get your offer and give us a call, unless everything Kurt has said about staying here isn't true.
Agent: Well, we are going to San Francisco monday. If they meet our demands, you can kiss Kurt goodbye.
FO: And we wouldn't blame you a bit. We have other needs to be addressed and paying Kurt 29M over 2 years would hamper those needs. Good Luck. I guess maybe we'll talk Monday.
I'm sure the FO has plan A , B and C. If Kurt leaves, we lock up Dansby, Wilson, Q, and Dockett for the next 4 years. A couple of years from now we will be much better off for being somewhat prudent.
Geez, it wasn't long ago that many of us wanted to run Warner out of town. Too many INT's. Too many fumbles. Too immobile. Lets not forget that Warner has been surrounded by a great supporting cast. He will not enjoy the last 2 years of his football career if he decides to go to San Francisco.
P.S. I will donate $20,000 ASFN dollars to anybody in need if Kurt signs somewhere else. He won't.
Agent: Are you crazy? Kurt deserves 29 m over 2 years with 18m guaranteed. Our phone has been ringing off the wall.
FO: Really. Tell you what. Go get your offer and give us a call, unless everything Kurt has said about staying here isn't true.
Agent: Well, we are going to San Francisco monday. If they meet our demands, you can kiss Kurt goodbye.
FO: And we wouldn't blame you a bit. We have other needs to be addressed and paying Kurt 29M over 2 years would hamper those needs. Good Luck. I guess maybe we'll talk Monday.
I'm sure the FO has plan A , B and C. If Kurt leaves, we lock up Dansby, Wilson, Q, and Dockett for the next 4 years. A couple of years from now we will be much better off for being somewhat prudent.
Geez, it wasn't long ago that many of us wanted to run Warner out of town. Too many INT's. Too many fumbles. Too immobile. Lets not forget that Warner has been surrounded by a great supporting cast. He will not enjoy the last 2 years of his football career if he decides to go to San Francisco.
P.S. I will donate $20,000 ASFN dollars to anybody in need if Kurt signs somewhere else. He won't.
Cards_Campos
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I never wanted Warner gone...In fact I have said many times!!! He would do exactly what he did this year. He is PERFECT for our system...The problem is...and the FO has done this many times!!!!! They screw the player for 3 years and when he proves his worth...they say well....You may not duplicate it now or you are near the end. And that is why EVERY player has left...and has had nothing good to say about the Cards FO....Now Warner was paid 6 million for the last 2 years and blitzed the league...He wants to be REWARDED so to speak and the FO is saying...nahhh....I mean if they are willing to pay 11 million a year...what the heck is 2 more million...Make it 13 million...say THANKS for leading us to the Super Bowl...and then the FO can relax and go sign their and or other players!!!!
azsouthendzone
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This is a great thread. It is seperating people who know football from people who watch football.
HookemCards
Have at you!!!!!
Thats pretty funny because Warner was on those teams that went 6-10, 8-8, etc.
azsouthendzone
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Brilliant post!
Cards_Campos
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I will put it this way...You think that is brilliant huh?? Dockett said Warner should have been PAID weeks ago. Every player on the team has said that....11 million or 13 million what is the difference??? really in the whole scheme of things.....Give the man 2 million more and watch us make a run again next year. Just a small piece of me wants Warner to retire or resign some where so you guys can see the Lienart era begin and go down in flames....and we can go get a real QB for the Future. I stated 1000 times Warner would take this team deep in the playoffs....He is that good and he FITS our system. Case to prove...Both Whiz and Denny Green who had Lienart start games where we built huge leads!! They sat on the ball HOPING to hang on!!! Chicago Monday night game and Seattle game last year. Lienart ISN'T that good..
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CardsFan88
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I understand your concern. But to use an expression, 'this ain't your daddy's cardinals team'. We TRIED to build through the draft, but it never worked out so well. When we did hit on players, we usually let them go (or they wanted to leave). The focus on scouting as has been revealed to be laughable in past years.
Also it's a different game now. Teams like the Eagles, Steelers, and Patriots imo seem to be good most years because their business model's take advantage of the holes in the system.
All have drafted well - strong emphasis on scouting
All have used LTBE's in their players contracts to bank cap space for subsequent years.
All have re-signed their best players
All will let go their mediocre guys or in some cases the one guy left out that particular year for whatever reason.
All have gained many draft picks through losing these players - players that are rated between 75-150 with these selections (i.e. their ratings not where they were drafted) - these players build depth, you can hit on them, and they are cheap
Meanwhile the ones that try to spend the money such as the Redskins and Cowboys never seem to go much beyond mediocrity.
Back to our team. We've drafted much better imo during the past 4-5-6 seasons. Even if it was a down draft, we would pick up at least 1 quality player.
We may have a down drafting year, it's bound to happen, but overall I feel much more comfortable with the quality of our scouts now than in previous seasons. Odds are we will continue to be at least half-way competent drafting, and that's realistically better than in past years.
Believe me, I think we should re-sign Warner, and feel how far we go is directly related to Warner being re-signed. But overall what's going to determine how good we are in 2010, 2011, and beyond is how well we draft this year and next, as well as how well our players from the last two drafts, Breaston, Watson, DRC, Levi, Branch, etc develop and if we keep the core of our other players such as A dub, dockett, dansby. Warner is the only player we could lose that is on the same level as that group.
Boldin, who knows. He'll either be here, or we'll get something for him. I sure hope he's here.
The players out there in free agency are proven in the system they were in.
Case in point D. Hall. A cover 2 corner, who signed with the Raiders last year and was thrown into man coverage.
Meanwhile Nnamdi Asomugha is a shut down man corner, meaning everyone was destined to throw (to whoever was not named Asomugha) on Hall, and because he wasn't a good fit for their system, they did so often with good results.
Again the Redskins pretty much sign the most free agents, and usually to some of the biggest if not the biggest deals of that particular offseason, yet are stuck in mediocrity.
There's a lot of quality still out there. Warner still hasn't signed somewhere else.
Having a good team means losing some players like Arrington and A. Smith. Good teams overcome those losses.
Either way, if we sign warner, by 2011 we should either have another veteran starting Qb, or have drafted one to be our Qb starting that season. Next season's success is determined by Warner (imo) but the next 5-6 years success will be determined by how well we draft and develop our recent draft picks.
We could shoot for the moon, or continue building our team into a year in and year out contender.
Overextending ourselves is a boom or bust cycle. If you don't hit on those players, you'll pay for them for years. Which again is why I feel Warner fits in with this team so well. He only wants a 2 year contract, so even if he gets injured and only plays a few games over the life of the contract, he'll be off our books before it becomes a serious detriment to our cap space. That said, it's always smart to try to get the best deal possible. A couple million saved on Warner, letting A. Smith and arrington go may very well translate into re-signing Q or another one of our core players.
If they start blowing it like the Suns did, I will be disappointed and as mad/frustrated as I am about that situation. (Mad in a limited context)
But I don't see that happening. I also don't see us selling our picks or making every effort to cut salary. I don't *believe* in rod graves and I wouldn't call him a *good* gm. But at this point, he is decent enough to get us where we are, and in a position to have flexibility every season to make some moves. If KW and Q are on the team next season, the sky is the limit, especially if we draft well. But also at this point, too many things have to happen before we know how successful the off-season is.
Another part that gives me hope is that it appears we are moving more towards the business model of NE, Phi, Pit.
Again it's still early, and none of our core guys have gone anywhere yet.
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There is a reason that Dockett and every player on the team aren't out there running businesses. That isn't their core competency.
I agree with you CC. I don't want to see Warner leave either, however, we don't know what has been offered and we don't know what Warner has countered with. I know we've seen the reports , but we just don't know.
Hey, if it was a matter of 1 or 2 mil then it will get done.
But I will as you the same question that I asked Red Desert( which he hasn't reponded to) just how much is too much? I would love to hear your opinion.
Cards_Campos
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Honestly..I say we give hime 13 to 14 million with 14 million garanteed! Meaning play as well or damn close to what you did this year and we will happily give you 13-14 million more for 2010. I think the Cardinals must do it because 1 he deserves it for what he has done...on and off the the field. And the Cardinals are a legit franchise now. But that is with Warner...If we start over again...we will be placed right back where we use to be. Warner gives us the chance to score 30 a game...And gives us respect around the league and the media. JMHO
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