What would you give for Kevin Love

[JCSunsfan]

jeez man...really? someone can't point out an opposing POV with you responding with this?







I'd rather not make a move just to make a move, especially if we have to subtract from a 48 win team to do it. Love is a very good player, but I think a 1-2 punch of Dragic/Love just doesn't come close to making us a title contender. It makes us a perenial 6 seed, IMO and i've seen enough Suns teams like that.

This. and I really like Dragic. Making the move from 48 win team to contender is hard to do.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It was defensive point guard. In about 25 years I can name Isiah Thomas, Chauncey Billups and Rondo. Now those guys also played on defensive minded teams especially in Detroit with Mahorn, Rodman, Lambier, Ben Wallace,Prince.

So in 25 years there have been 3 and each time the PG wasn't even the best defender on the team. A defensive minded point guard in not the position I would want my best defender to be I want a really great defensive big man or a lanky wing player. No one is saying you don't need defense is just at PG I don't really put defense as a premium.



By the way there is nothing safe about Dragic the guy is a stud you had guys all over ESPN and Fox taking about how he should be top 5 in MVP voting this year. Bill Simmons, Mike Wilbon among others. Your acting he's some slightly above average player when in reality he is damn good

And I gave you a defensive pg. And you mentioned more. ALL these championship pg's were excellent defenders.

Joe Dumars/Isaiah Thomas (dual pg's like the Suns today)
Ron Harper (Bulls/Lakers one of the best defenders in the history of the league)
Chauncy Billups (Detroit)
Dennis Johnson (Boston)
Rajon Rondo (Boston)
Jason Kidd (Dallas)
Gary Payton (05/6 Heat)
Mario Elie (Rockets)

Even more teams had versatile defensive guards who could defend both the 1 and 2 positions (like Bledsoe's defensive role). These would include Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Michael Cooper.

I am not sure what being the best defender on the team has to do with the argument. We have had 25 years of defensive centers in the league. That does not preclude the need for good defense at pg.

Its hard to find many NBA championship teams with pg's that are similar or worse defenders than Dragic (Parker and Fisher were both better defenders than Dragic is, and Mario Chalmers is a very good defender). But even then, I am ok with Dragic. You just have to pair him with another star player that is a good defender. I have my doubts that Love is that player. Dragic/Love is not good enough. Dragic/Bledsoe/Love might be.

 

[slinslin]

The Suns fan community as a whole seems to have an irrational mancrush for white players (Majerle, Hornacek, Chambers, Nash, Dragic, Love), else I can't explain the absurd amount of love for Dragic while almost consistently bickering about Bledsoe (Marbury, Amare, Marion..) or wanting to trade him, but at the same time getting super-defensive and angry when someone suggests that Bledsoe is no-more or less tradeable than Dragic.

 

[Gaddabout]

I've been chatting with someone I consider an expert source on NBA analytics, and I've changed my tune somewhat on Kevin Love. I think his on-ball defense is bad and that reputation is well-earned, but his overall impact on the defense is much greater than most other players at his position.

Consider that Love racked up nearly 2,800 minutes playing for a team with the 4th fastest pace in the league, but the T-Wolves still ranked 12th in defensive rating. It's not a roster that makes a lot of sense, either. A big part of that is Love's defensive rebounding -- 29.5 DRR, fifth in the NBA. He plays next to Nickola Peckovic and Corey Brewer, which is to say he starts on a frontline with a backup center and a virtual guard. Without Love, they are the worst DRR team in the NBA.

Rebounding IS defense, and Love provides elite levels of it.

It goes without saying that Love is an elite offensive player, but he doesn't dominate the ball nearly as much as I thought he did. He had a 27.7 USG rate last year, which is high, but less than, say, LaMarcus Aldridge, and far off from DeMarcus Cousins, who logged a 30.7. On the upside, he would give the offense an identity and focal point, taking the pressure off Bledsoe.

That said, I don't think they have the assets to even be competitive. They don't have a Top 10 pick, and it's highly doubtful the T-Wolves want anything in the 1, 2, or 3 position player category. Sorry, but the Suns' mid-to-late first-round picks are worthless in this hunt. They're definitely not going to consider Plumlee or Len anything more than filler for this trade.

 

[Gaddabout]

The Suns fan community as a whole seems to have an irrational mancrush for white players (Majerle, Hornacek, Chambers, Nash, Dragic, Love)

Every single player you listed besides Dragic was an all-star, and one of them won two MVPs. Dragic, not Bledsoe, had a valid argument to be selected for the all-star game.

Who's being irrational?

 

[slinslin]

Every single player you listed besides Dragic was an all-star, and one of them won two MVPs. Dragic, not Bledsoe, had a valid argument to be selected for the all-star game.

Who's being irrational?

Being an allstar, even all-nba player did not save Amare, Marbury or Marion from getting hated out of town quickly.
It a simple observation that the local Phoenix fanbase rallies behind white players.
Dragic has already reached a worshipping status that nobody else before him reached except for Nash, but Dragic has done nothing so far. Say anything negative about Dragic and you have an army of followers trying to turn the discussion into trying to make Bledsoe look bad. It's annoying.

 

[sunsfan88]

Being an allstar, even all-nba player did not save Amare, Marbury or Marion from getting hated out of town quickly.
It a simple observation that the local Phoenix fanbase rallies behind white players.
Dragic has already reached a worshipping status that nobody else before him reached except for Nash, but Dragic has done nothing so far. Say anything negative about Dragic and you have an army of followers trying to turn the discussion into trying to make Bledsoe look bad. It's annoying.

Absolutely ridiculous. Marion wasn't hated out of town, he just wanted too much money. Amare wasn't hated out of town, he just didn't deserve a max contract with his health issues.

And guess what?

Suns were right! Neither Amare nor Marion have played up to the level of the contract they wanted when they left here.

So I guess we should continue to "hate" black players out of Phoenix because it sure seems to be working as we continue to make the right decision.

 

[SirStefan32]

I despise people who just have to bring race into everything.
We are talking about Love because he is the best PF that may be on the market right now, not because he is white. If LMA was available, I am sure we'd be talking about him.
Fan love Dragic for a variety of reasons, and being white has nothing to do with anything.
* He really loves this organization and the city- he came back after he was traded, and he always talks about how much he loves the organization and the city.
* He was, by far, our best player last season. He should have been an All Star.
* The kid just has a lot of heart. He played as hard as I have ever seen anyone play. I did not see Dragic take one single play off, I did not see him give up one single time.

Why do you have to bring race into everything. If you see world that way- black vs. white, that's your business, but don't you dare project that on me and other people who see all people as equal and don't give a crap about someone's race!

 

[elindholm]

Being an allstar, even all-nba player did not save Amare, Marbury or Marion from getting hated out of town quickly.

Why can't you make a point without an absurd exaggeration? Stoudemire and Marion were each with the Suns for eight seasons (eight-plus in Marion's case). There was nothing "quick" about their departure from Phoenix. In fact Marion and Stoudemire are 6th and 10th, respectively, on the list of career games played with the franchise.

I do think that the fan base, as a population, leans racist, as you would expect from one of the reddest states in the union. And I have, myself, also commented on the organization's apparent preference for white players. But those arguments can be made without resorting to silly hyperbole.

 

[slinslin]

The team didnt trade them quickly, the fanbase turned on them very quickly however when things did not go so smoothly.

I just can't stand this constant bitching about Bledsoe for no reason and then dragging Dragic into the conversation just to hype Dragic at the expense of Bledsoe. "trade bledsoe blabla (even though it is not even possible), dragic is untouchable blabla, bledsoe turns the ball over blanblabla, dragic should be mvp blabla"

 

[elindholm]

The team didnt trade them quickly, the fanbase turned on them very quickly however when things did not go so smoothly.

As they've done for plenty of white players who didn't overcome basic weaknesses and shunned accountability, as Stoudemire and Marion did. (However, I agree with what you've said before about how Majerle mysteriously gets a free pass.)

I just can't stand this constant bitching about Bledsoe for no reason

The "no reason" would be that he is below average offensively (when you figure in the turnovers, especially) and can't stay healthy. That's "no reason" to you but not to a lot of us.

and then dragging Dragic into the conversation just to hype Dragic at the expense of Bledsoe.

A lot of us don't think that the double-PG experiment can work long term, nor do we think that either Dragic or Bledsoe can become a star-level SG. So the reality (some of us believe) is that the organization will have to choose between them sooner or later, probably sooner. You could try to debate that position rather than accuse the other side of racism, which is a pretty unimaginative cop-out.

 

[JCSunsfan]

As they've done for plenty of white players who didn't overcome basic weaknesses and shunned accountability, as Stoudemire and Marion did. (However, I agree with what you've said before about how Majerle mysteriously gets a free pass.)

The "no reason" would be that he is below average offensively (when you figure in the turnovers, especially) and can't stay healthy. That's "no reason" to you but not to a lot of us.

A lot of us don't think that the double-PG experiment can work long term, nor do we think that either Dragic or Bledsoe can become a star-level SG. So the reality (some of us believe) is that the organization will have to choose between them sooner or later, probably sooner. You could try to debate that position rather than accuse the other side of racism, which is a pretty unimaginative cop-out.

I am not sure what you mean about Majerle getting a free pass. Maybe I missed something. He improved aspects of his game every year. The big problem with Marion is that he pouted about being disrespected and treated like a third wheel on a team where he was clearly the third best player and STILL had a max contract. It became evident that it would be impossible to make him happy. Suns fans would have loved to keep Marion, if Marion had shown any joy in being here.

Stoudemire was injured. We would have loved to keep him, but the Knicks offered a contract that was just too risky given the injury history. It has proven to be so. I guess that's the way free agency works. To say either of these players were ridden out of town is just plain revisionist and dishonest.

I believe the two pg system CAN work long term, primarily because of the defensive versatility of Bledsoe. They complement one another in the right way.

If they have to trade one of the two, that's a tough one. At this moment, I would probably trade Dragic. His value is likely close to its highest, and he can walk as a FA next summer. Bledsoe is a star-level, two-way player and I am tire of Suns teams with porous defenses. So I lean toward Bledsoe. I can certainly understand someone choosing Dragic. What I cannot understand is someone thinking the choice is easy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am not sure what you mean about Majerle getting a free pass. Maybe I missed something. He improved aspects of his game every year. The big problem with Marion is that he pouted about being disrespected and treated like a third wheel on a team where he was clearly the third best player and STILL had a max contract. It became evident that it would be impossible to make him happy. Suns fans would have loved to keep Marion, if Marion had shown any joy in being here.

Stoudemire was injured. We would have loved to keep him, but the Knicks offered a contract that was just too risky given the injury history. It has proven to be so. I guess that's the way free agency works. To say either of these players were ridden out of town is just plain revisionist and dishonest.

I believe the two pg system CAN work long term, primarily because of the defensive versatility of Bledsoe. They complement one another in the right way.

If they have to trade one of the two, that's a tough one. At this moment, I would probably trade Dragic. His value is likely close to its highest, and he can walk as a FA next summer. Bledsoe is a star-level, two-way player and I am tire of Suns teams with porous defenses. So I lean toward Bledsoe. I can certainly understand someone choosing Dragic. What I cannot understand is someone thinking the choice is easy.

this sums up my thoughts almost to a T.

 

[cepstrum]

I've been chatting with someone I consider an expert source on NBA analytics, and I've changed my tune somewhat on Kevin Love. I think his on-ball defense is bad and that reputation is well-earned, but his overall impact on the defense is much greater than most other players at his position.

Consider that Love racked up nearly 2,800 minutes playing for a team with the 4th fastest pace in the league, but the T-Wolves still ranked 12th in defensive rating. It's not a roster that makes a lot of sense, either. A big part of that is Love's defensive rebounding -- 29.5 DRR, fifth in the NBA. He plays next to Nickola Peckovic and Corey Brewer, which is to say he starts on a frontline with a backup center and a virtual guard. Without Love, they are the worst DRR team in the NBA.

Rebounding IS defense, and Love provides elite levels of it.

It goes without saying that Love is an elite offensive player, but he doesn't dominate the ball nearly as much as I thought he did. He had a 27.7 USG rate last year, which is high, but less than, say, LaMarcus Aldridge, and far off from DeMarcus Cousins, who logged a 30.7. On the upside, he would give the offense an identity and focal point, taking the pressure off Bledsoe.

That said, I don't think they have the assets to even be competitive. They don't have a Top 10 pick, and it's highly doubtful the T-Wolves want anything in the 1, 2, or 3 position player category. Sorry, but the Suns' mid-to-late first-round picks are worthless in this hunt. They're definitely not going to consider Plumlee or Len anything more than filler for this trade.

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing. What are your thoughts on what it would take to get him. Presumably, we can move in the top 10 by packaging the 14 with either players or additional picks. And we have the Lakers pick next year.

So a top 10 pick this year + the Laker's pick next year + other lesser assets. That seems like a pretty good haul for Love and it seems doable from the Suns' end. Am I being a homer?

 

[BC867]

slinslin, I am old enough to be your grandfather and you are entitled to your opinion. But it is ignorant and degrading to the contributors and posters of ASFN to turn into a race issue the question of:

Should the Suns plan a future of Dragic and Bledsoe as our starting backcourt?

If not, would they be better off investing in Dragic or Bledsoe?

Is there a chance we could wind up with neither?

Reading and posting on ASFN is a time consuming hobby to a lot of good people. We don't need a Donald Sterling wanna-be muddying it up, especially from the vantage point of a different continent.

I would appreciate your acting responsibly to Arizonans and the teams we root for in your posts.

 

[sunsfan88]

slinslin, I am old enough to be your grandfather and you are entitled to your opinion. But it is ignorant and degrading to the contributors and posters of ASFN to turn into a race issue the question of:

Should the Suns plan a future of Dragic and Bledsoe as our starting backcourt?

If not, would they be better off investing in Dragic or Bledsoe?

Is there a chance we could wind up with neither?

Reading and posting on ASFN is a time consuming hobby to a lot of good people. We don't need a Donald Sterling wanna-be muddying it up, especially from the vantage point of a different continent.

I would appreciate your acting responsibly to Arizonans and the teams we root for in your posts.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Phrazbit]

The fan base had soured on Majerle prior to the Hot Rod Williams trade. He had a miserable playoffs in 95 and a lot of people around town and in the local media laid a heavy amount of blame on him for the Suns collapse vs Houston. If anything he is an example of the city NOT being racist because they turned on one of their beloved white guys. Granted over time the emotions changed because Williams was hot garbage, the team as a whole went down hill and Majerle maintained a local presence, eventually came back to the team and is once again loved, but at the time of the trade Majerle was hardly a favorite son.

But maybe people disliked him because he could dunk... therefore his whiteness was in question.

As for Amare and Marion, its utterly ridiculous to claim race ran them out of town. Marion, as others have said, was not disliked. He merely wanted a ton of money and the team couldnt pay him. Amare couldnt stay on the court, he was offered a 60 million 3 year deal, he left for the extra 40 million in guarantees and I dont think many here blamed him. Both left town because of money, not because of any imagined race factor and the team was proven right in both situations.

And Marbury... I could go on for days about what an overrated turd he was throughout his entire career and it has nothing to do with race.

 

[SirStefan32]

slinslin, I am old enough to be your grandfather and you are entitled to your opinion. But it is ignorant and degrading to the contributors and posters of ASFN to turn into a race issue the question of:

Should the Suns plan a future of Dragic and Bledsoe as our starting backcourt?

If not, would they be better off investing in Dragic or Bledsoe?

Is there a chance we could wind up with neither?

Reading and posting on ASFN is a time consuming hobby to a lot of good people. We don't need a Donald Sterling wanna-be muddying it up, especially from the vantage point of a different continent.

I would appreciate your acting responsibly to Arizonans and the teams we root for in your posts.

Well said, Sir!

 

[Mainstreet]

The fan base had soured on Majerle prior to the Hot Rod Williams trade. He had a miserable playoffs in 95 and a lot of people around town and in the local media laid a heavy amount of blame on him for the Suns collapse vs Houston. If anything he is an example of the city NOT being racist because they turned on one of their beloved white guys. Granted over time the emotions changed because Williams was hot garbage, the team as a whole went down hill and Majerle maintained a local presence, eventually came back to the team and is once again loved, but at the time of the trade Majerle was hardly a favorite son.

But maybe people disliked him because he could dunk... therefore his whiteness was in question.

As for Amare and Marion, its utterly ridiculous to claim race ran them out of town. Marion, as others have said, was not disliked. He merely wanted a ton of money and the team couldnt pay him. Amare couldnt stay on the court, he was offered a 60 million 3 year deal, he left for the extra 40 million in guarantees and I dont think many here blamed him. Both left town because of money, not because of any imagined race factor and the team was proven right in both situations.

And Marbury... I could go on for days about what an overrated turd he was throughout his entire career and it has nothing to do with race.

This sums most of it up. Majerle fell in love with the three point shot to the detriment to the rest of his game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This sums most of it up. Majerle fell in love with the three point shot to the detriment to the rest of his game.

not only that, but he went belly up in the 94 disasterous series against Houston also. I wanted him gone at that point and he was one of my most beloved players. But man...he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in those two Houston series.

 

[BC867]

This sums most of it up. Majerle fell in love with the three point shot to the detriment to the rest of his game.

He also fell in love with the young girls in the stands to the detriment of his fans.

I cited some time ago about when I took my younger son (who was a teenager) to Suns games. One night we arrived really early and Dan was the only player practicing on the court. When I saw he was done, I called him to come over so my son could say 'hi' to his favorite player.

Majerle started heading over . . . until he spotted two girls in the stands . . . and made a bee line for them and I saw the look on my son's face.

I shouted, "Dan" at the top of my lungs and he begrudgingly changed direction again and headed over to greet my son.

I realized at that point that Thunder Dan had the mentality of an adolescent. Which is why I was glad he was ultimately passed over for Head Coach. I hope for his sake that he has grown up as Coach at GCU. He wasn't then.

And I am sure the Suns brass knew it.

 

[TucsonDevil]

OK, back to Kevin Love...

It's unfortunate, but the Suns may be in furthest pole position with what they can offer to Minny. It would be great to say - all 2014 picks, the Morri, and another player, but the Wolves will have much better offers.

What I don't understand is how Danny Ainge can potentially land him over all the other teams hoping to put together deals this summer. How is Boston an attractive place to play? I've only been there once, many years ago, and found the city to be dirty, crowded and depressing. If the Celtics are able to get back into the game with a huge trade, ala 2007, I'm going to be sick.

The Suns need to shake things up in a big way. The West is just too stacked to hope for incremental improvements. Hornacek was the first great move, but they need something much more. Is Love that piece? I doubt it - unless Goodwin really is that good, AND we can develop a Center, AND keep both PGs... That's a lot of conditional issues to deal with...

 

[JCSunsfan]

not only that, but he went belly up in the 94 disasterous series against Houston also. I wanted him gone at that point and he was one of my most beloved players. But man...he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in those two Houston series.

Oh wow. How horrible was it to be a Suns fan during those two series. MJ is out and they have their window and Charles decides that it is a good time to play golf with a bad back on game day. And yes, Majerle's shot went south--I had forgotten about that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh wow. How horrible was it to be a Suns fan during those two series. MJ is out and they have their window and Charles decides that it is a good time to play golf with a bad back on game day. And yes, Majerle's shot went south--I had forgotten about that.

we so should have won those titles. but Barkley's douche-ism and an awful Manning injury made it not to be.

 

[sunsfan88]

He plays next to Nickola Peckovic and Corey Brewer, which is to say he starts on a frontline with a backup center and a virtual guard.

Nickola Pekovic is a solid center in the NBA, no way in shape or form is he a backup unless he gets put on a team with a top player aka Omer Asik status.

And isn't Corey Brewer the one that dropped 50 pts in a game last season?

Rebounding IS defense

So Charles Barkley, Kenneth Faried, DeMarcus Cousins and prime Carlos Boozer were all good defenders in your opinion?