When will people critically analyze Kobe Bryant's playoff performances?

[Cheesebeef]

let me ask you a question. What would people be saying about Dirk Nowitizki if he shot 29% percent in getting the ever living crap eat out of him in a Finals he was heavily favored in, missed the playoffs the next year, blew a 3-1 lead and quit on his team in Game 7 the next, saw his team get crushed the following year then laid another egg in another Finals he was heavily favored in the next year?

When the Lakers were winning titles, the guy played with the second most unstoppable force the league has ever seen. 29 ppg, 14 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 3 assists shooting 55% and the league having to change the rules of the game for him. Kobe was a second banana - the best second banana of all time and up till this point, an elite First Banana, but a legend? A guy mentioned alongside Magic, Larry, Isiah and Jordan? That's a joke.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i used to be in the same wagon as you here, but eventually there was nothing more than myopia to support that argument. you swap jordan with those lakers and/or celtics teams, they still win championships. you swap magic or bird with jordan on those bulls teams, and i'm not as certain.

neither magic nor bird could compare with jordan from a pure scoring or defensive standpoint. they were better passers and incredibly clutch players and just a shade below jordan, but they weren't jordan.

and mind you - in the 90s i hated the bulls as much as i hate the lakers today - maybe even more. so this is not anti-laker rhetoric.

agreed and for any Laker fan to think Suns fans didn't hate MJ (the man killed us in our only real title hope in the past 32 years) like they hate Kobe is fooling themselves.

Magic was without a doubt the greatest PG ever to play the game, but comparing him to MJ just doesn't wash. It doesn't matter how good of a teammate you are or how much better you can make everyone else when singlehandedly, no one in the world could ever stop you. 6 titles, much less talent to work (like you said, Magic had the benefit of playing with another LEGEND, to go along with a host of other ridiculous talent), never losing in the Finals or once he got there for the first time (and anyone who brings up 1995 when he came back with 17 games to go is a fool). No one in the history of sport did what Jordan did.

 

[nowagimp]

I understand Kobe Bryant is a phenomenal talent, but can someone please tell me what he's ever done to be considered amongst the all-time greats, one of the legends of the game as most of the media pumps him up to be? Article after article before this series talked about how Bryant was as good or better than MJ and already amongst the NBA legends like Bird, Duncan, Shaq and Magic and that a title here would bring him closer to MJ, but what the hell is that based on? Is it based on how many times he's never won a Finals MVP? Or is it how he's been associated with NUMEROUS epic collapses as leader of "his own team" (missing the playoff entirely one year, blowing a 3-1 lead against a completely beat-up under-manned Amare/KT-less Suns team (which even lost another starter for an elimination game on the road) and pretty much everyone but Laker fans believing he quit on his team in Game 7, last night's game and these Finals in general), or the fact that unlike those legends, his numbers across the board drop from regular season to playoffs or is it the fact that he's a 41.5% career shooter in the Finals while losing two Finals in which his team was heavily favored to win (Detroit and this year) where he had absolutely horrific series?

Now, before Laker fans jump in and bash Steve Nash and turn this into a Suns v. Lakers thread, I'll just say this up top... Nash ain't in Kobe's league, not even close. He's great, but Kobe's on another level.

But seriously, has more praise ever been showered on anyone who's proved less than Kobe as far as a number 1? I mean, at this point, isn't the only thing that pretty much separates Kobe from Pippen, as far as impact on the game, is a Hue Hollins bogus foul called on a Hubert Davis 3 in Game 5 of the Bulls-Knicks Eastern Conference Finals that kept Pippen from getting a Jordan-less Bulls team to the Finals?

so why does Kobe seemingly always get a free pass? If he's the legend people try to make him out to be, when does he rise up and carry a team on his back singlehandedly like legends do? Where's are his Finals signature moments... or moment? Take this report as point in fact of what I'm talking about.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...fs/2008/06/12/grades.game4/index.html?eref=T1

How the hell does Kobe get a B for this game? He was awful most of the night and was carried for the first half by his teamates as they built a huge lead. Then he goes Kome in the second and all hell breaks lose as Allen and Pierce torch his ass, like they've been taking tunrs doing in three of four games... and Odom has just as "good" a game as Kobe... and he gets a C? Odom is the entire reason they built the lead in the first place... isn't it the legends job to close that out? The guy who dubs himself "unstoppable scores 17 points on 33% shooting in a must win game while blowing a 24 point lead... and his play is dubbed ABOVE AVERAGE? Are you kidding me?

I think the fixation on individuals in basketball is a joke, a myth perpetuated to lure the dumb fans to the game. The great teams have had very good chemistry, and the truly great players make that chemistry.

Magic: dude was all about chemistry, maybe the best ever.

Bird: another guys who made teamwork happen in a big way.

Duncan: a great passer in the middle who made sure the best shot was taken

Jordan: became great by giving the ball up when needed. Jordan wins nothing without pippen and some really good supporting players.




Kobe: its all about kobe, often the anti chemistry guy when the chips are down. I can imagine kobe being happy if another laker earned series MVP, like Parker did last year (vs Duncan) with the spurs. Kobe has much individual skill as anyone ever has, but he's missing in the team player/chemistry department when it really matters. Its the story of his career, great skill, mediocre team player.

Great teams have great chemistry, not just great skill players. The 2008 celtics have great appreciation for all their pieces, even the bench. It seems that nobody on the celtics wants individual credit as "the man".

The NBA and media pushing of superstars as "winning games by themselves" sells alot of memorabilia, papers/ratings, and tickets to ignorant fans, and it gave rise to NBA imposed superstar rules, but its an abuse of the great TEAM game that they were supposed to be stewards of. Shame on those jackals, profit and ratings have corrupted their judgement and product.

 

[nowagimp]

Because our fellow Suns fans all thought Marion was the best SF, better than KG?

Never saw even one poster say marion was better than KG, not even one. Youre making stuff up here. Some may have thought amare> KG, but mainly due to age, # years left. I suspect the suns win it all this year with KG instead of amare and with marion, I'll plead guulty to not wanting to trade amare for KG. Its obvious to me that KG> amare, as KG's defense would prevent the lane penetrators from scoring, a suns achillies heel. If defense wins championships, surely KG was the MVP as his presence in the lane was the dominant factor to the celtics defense all year. this was a team that added ray allen and KG and went from a terrible defensive team to the NBA's best defense. As far as pierce and Marion, I dunno what marion would do on a team with the NBA's best defender behind him. I dont think pierce would make the suns(before shaq) a better defensive team, so I dont think that any pierce/marion trade would get the suns by the spurs even. let alone this years lakers. In this series the best C's defender outside KG was posey, guarded kobe very well. James Posey has proven his defensive skills while working in near obscurity. James can also hit the clutch 3, as well.

 

[Russ Smith]

Last night he really did start to annoy me, he's an incredible player but just once I'd like to see him admit that he's not perfect.

During the sequence where Boston took the lead he made mistakes guarding Pierce that led to fouls and everytime he yelled at a teammate.

Then there was the play where he was arguing on offense and Pierce beat him downcourt, Farmar picked up Pierce who started to backdown Farmar. Kobe came into the play, pointed at Farmar like "switch" when it was completely impossible to do so. Pierce hit Farmar's man, Ray Allen, Kobe ran out so fast that Allen went by him baseline and made that terrific reverse, and sure enough running downcourt Kobe was yelling at Farmar. That entire play was his fault for being late downcourt and then trying to switch with Ray Allen open on the wing.

Great player and great will to win but he's not very good at admitting he's human.

 

[nowagimp]

agreed and for any Laker fan to think Suns fans didn't hate MJ (the man killed us in our only real title hope in the past 32 years) like they hate Kobe is fooling themselves.

Magic was without a doubt the greatest PG ever to play the game, but comparing him to MJ just doesn't wash. It doesn't matter how good of a teammate you are or how much better you can make everyone else when singlehandedly, no one in the world could ever stop you. 6 titles, much less talent to work (like you said, Magic had the benefit of playing with another LEGEND, to go along with a host of other ridiculous talent), never losing in the Finals or once he got there for the first time (and anyone who brings up 1995 when he came back with 17 games to go is a fool). No one in the history of sport did what Jordan did.

I respectfully disagree, magic made everyone else better, and was an impossible matchup at the point at 6'9". Magic won in year 1 and that laker team was a threat every year in spite of the bird celtics being there, one of the greatest teams of all time as well. Those celtics had Bird and the best PF of the era(Mchale), AND an all star PG(DJ) and center(parrish). the lakers had Kareem, surely a great player, but he was aging and not strong enough to be a dominant rebounder or defender. Most fans/writers agree that that celtics front line was probably the greatest of all time.

hubie brown on mchale: "He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper." Those celtics had the inside outside game down, bigtime, and defendedthe paint very well.

Magics ability to win over those celtics, generally with a lesser supporting group truly underscored his greatness. Does anyone believe that those lakers were even a good playoff team without magic?

Jordan took awhile to even get past the first round, and I did not think the competition was as tough in the elite teams of that era. Certainly the bad boy pistons(no low post game) and knicks couldnt compare to the bird/mchale/parrish/DJ celtics. The weakness of those bulls teams was interior defense, and the best centers(olajuwon and robinson) were stuck on unbalanced or poor teams in the opposite conference for most of the bulls era. Sure, the bulls beat the knicks with ewing, but those knick teams had some suspect guards, and were outmanned at those positions, while Ewing was a fadeaway shooter, not a particularly dominant inside offensive player. As for the bulls/pacers, one word, smits, a stiff. I dont think the bulls competition had balance (as in an inside outside game) for much of their era.

A team game is always harder to defend than an individual and MJ only ascended to true greatness when he recognized that. MJ's last championship he shot 35% for the final series, a terrible performance for him, or for any "go to" guy. Still, I consider MJ to be the 2nd greatest guard of all time behind magic, and those bulls teams had great perimeter defense with MJ/Pippen. Its not that I dont like MJ, what basketball fan doesnt, but magic was THE greatest player of all time because he made good players into "near all stars" on any given night.

 

[D-Dogg]

Great post. I won't be contributing to this, other than to say those are many of the reasons I have as well....but my bias is too strong to be in any way objective, and thus it will be counterproductive to even start the argument. Magic is my sports idol...greatest player I've ever seen. You guys think I adore Kobe? Kobe can't, and most likely won't, even carry Magic's jock.


It's nice to see someone who is not a lakerfan think the same way, though.

 

[D-Dogg]

Great player and great will to win but he's not very good at admitting he's human.

Truth.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

jordan, bird & magic all had a mental game that was insane as well

you need more than just drive, you need understanding

 

[nowagimp]

Great post. I won't be contributing to this, other than to say those are many of the reasons I have as well....but my bias is too strong to be in any way objective, and thus it will be counterproductive to even start the argument. Magic is my sports idol...greatest player I've ever seen. You guys think I adore Kobe? Kobe can't, and most likely won't, even carry Magic's jock.


It's nice to see someone who is not a lakerfan think the same way, though.

During the 80's I was a sixers fan(grew up in phila), so I only have the bias of respecting the greatness of these teams, that is basketball skills bias. Both those teams had the inside outside game down and great passing, as well as multiple HOF players. When my sixers fianlly broke through in 1983, it was like coming up for air in an era of dominated by lakers and celtics. The sixers has moses, Dr J, Andrew Toney, and cheeks and still struggled to get by those celtics/lakers. I became a suns fan as I loved showtime ball and when the 76ers traded charles it pushed me to the suns even though I still lived in phila. I also really enjoyed MJ and the bulls, but the bulls didnt have the inside/outside balance on offense or defense(and neither did their competition). Truly great teams must have that balance to prevent being abused by simple matchups. When the bulls had Bison Dele for a year, they had the inside defense, but they never had a potent low post threat on offense. This is why I dont rank them among the top 5 of all time.

 

[D-Dogg]

And for the record, Jordan wasn't as perfect as our memories deceive us into believing. He struggled in the playoffs too, against swarming defenses like Detroit.

The 89-90 season, from the Jordan Rules.

"The Pistons had taken the first two games by 86-77 and 102-93, and Detroit's defense had put the Bulls' fast break on neutral...Jordan himself had averaged only 27 points, stubbornly going 17 for 43. No team defensed Jordan better than the Pistons, yet he refused to admit that they gave him a hard time, so he played into their hands by attacking the basket right where their collapsing defensive schemes were expecting him."

Regarding Detroit's defensive schemes: "'You hear about them often enough'...said [assistant coach] Bach. 'It has an effect and suddenly people think they aren't fouling Michael even when they are.'"

"Jordan had really believed that the Bulls could defeat Detroit this time. Of course, there was no evidence to suggest it could happen, since the Pistons had knocked the Bulls out of the playoffs the previous two seasons and had taken fourteen of the last seventeen regular-season games between them."

"But Jordan didn't care much for Rodman's play. 'He's a flopper,' Jordan would say disdainfully...Rodman once 'flopped' so effectively back in the 1988-89 season that Jordan drew six fouls in the fourth quarter to foul out in the last minute of a close loss to the Pistons."

"And so Jordan left the game without speaking to anyone, leaving the media scrambling for reasons and Jordan's teammates searching for answers...Jordan believed his team had let him down when he was hurt. The team believed he'd let them down by failing to face the media after such a crucial loss. Sure, several noted, he was there long into the night after he scored 50 points, but where was he when he scored only 20? And his man, Dumars, had burned him in two straight games..."

"But the Bulls hadn't defeated Detroit in the Palace of Auburn Hills yet. After Game 5, the Bulls still hadn't. It was a classic Pistons win over the Bulls. Dumars scored 20, holding Jordan to 7 of 19 and 22 points. The Pistons outrebounded the Bulls 45-36, the Pistons' bench outscored Chicago's 35-13, and the Bulls hit just a third of their shots...Detroit was tougher and more aggressive."

"The Bulls trailed 72-64 to open the fourth quarter, but after scoring a bakset, Jordan signaled that he wanted to come out for a rest. He was out for two minutes, and in that time Detroit outscored the Bulls 11-2 and the Bulls never got close again."

"In a play that summed up the problems Chicago faced in Detroit, with 10.4 seconds to go in the first quarter Jordan took the ball after a Pistons turnover and tossed up a shot from midcourt...As Jordan went to the bench, he explained to Jackson, 'I thought [the clock] said one point four seconds.'"

"Jordan was left to consider the 93-74 loss. He agreed Detroit was better. The Bulls had to get better...Where was Pippen? This was the second straight year he'd vanished in the last game against the Pistons...Were he and his buddy, Grant, serious enough? Paxson had broken down and the other guys hadn't done much. Jordan had scored 31 points, 21 more than anyone else, but he'd also attempted 27 shots."

"Just before he stepped from the postgame podium and onto the golf courses of America, Jordan offered one final thought: 'We have to do some things. We need to make some changes.'"

We tend to forget that aspect of Jordan...an aspect we see in Kobe all the time. I'd rather see this argument laid out at the end of Kobe's career and where he stacks up with the legends.

 

[elindholm]

We tend to forget that aspect of Jordan...an aspect we see in Kobe all the time. I'd rather see this argument laid out at the end of Kobe's career and where he stacks up with the legends.

Exactly. The main reason people fall all over themselves to proclaim Jordan as the unassailable Greatest for All Eternity is that they can be assured that a chorus of yes-men will join them, making them feel smart. Jordan was a great competitor and a great talent, but to portray him as some sort of extraterrestrial without weaknesses or failures is outright mythology.

 

[Joe L]

During the 80's I was a sixers fan(grew up in phila), so I only have the bias of respecting the greatness of these teams, that is basketball skills bias. Both those teams had the inside outside game down and great passing, as well as multiple HOF players. When my sixers fianlly broke through in 1983, it was like coming up for air in an era of dominated by lakers and celtics. The sixers has moses, Dr J, Andrew Toney, and cheeks and still struggled to get by those celtics/lakers. I became a suns fan as I loved showtime ball and when the 76ers traded charles it pushed me to the suns even though I still lived in phila. I also really enjoyed MJ and the bulls, but the bulls didnt have the inside/outside balance on offense or defense(and neither did their competition). Truly great teams must have that balance to prevent being abused by simple matchups. When the bulls had Bison Dele for a year, they had the inside defense, but they never had a potent low post threat on offense. This is why I dont rank them among the top 5 of all time.

That was my team (Sixers) as a kid. Cunningham (C), Chocolate Thunder, Bobby Jones, Iavaroni , Caldwell Jones & the rest of the guys during the start of the 80's...good times.

 

[AfroSuns]

Last night he really did start to annoy me, he's an incredible player but just once I'd like to see him admit that he's not perfect.

During the sequence where Boston took the lead he made mistakes guarding Pierce that led to fouls and everytime he yelled at a teammate.

Then there was the play where he was arguing on offense and Pierce beat him downcourt, Farmar picked up Pierce who started to backdown Farmar. Kobe came into the play, pointed at Farmar like "switch" when it was completely impossible to do so. Pierce hit Farmar's man, Ray Allen, Kobe ran out so fast that Allen went by him baseline and made that terrific reverse, and sure enough running downcourt Kobe was yelling at Farmar. That entire play was his fault for being late downcourt and then trying to switch with Ray Allen open on the wing.

Great player and great will to win but he's not very good at admitting he's human.

I agree, that was really annoying, even more than a Tim Duncan. Cant remember ever seeing him complain about every call like that before, almost seem as if he thinks he is invisble maybe because he is the league's MVP.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I respectfully disagree, magic made everyone else better, and was an impossible matchup at the point at 6'9". Magic won in year 1 and that laker team was a threat every year in spite of the bird celtics being there, one of the greatest teams of all time as well. Those celtics had Bird and the best PF of the era(Mchale), AND an all star PG(DJ) and center(parrish). the lakers had Kareem, surely a great player, but he was aging and not strong enough to be a dominant rebounder or defender. Most fans/writers agree that that celtics front line was probably the greatest of all time.

hubie brown on mchale: "He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper." Those celtics had the inside outside game down, bigtime, and defendedthe paint very well.

Magics ability to win over those celtics, generally with a lesser supporting group truly underscored his greatness. Does anyone believe that those lakers were even a good playoff team without magic?

Jordan took awhile to even get past the first round, and I did not think the competition was as tough in the elite teams of that era. Certainly the bad boy pistons(no low post game) and knicks couldnt compare to the bird/mchale/parrish/DJ celtics. The weakness of those bulls teams was interior defense, and the best centers(olajuwon and robinson) were stuck on unbalanced or poor teams in the opposite conference for most of the bulls era. Sure, the bulls beat the knicks with ewing, but those knick teams had some suspect guards, and were outmanned at those positions, while Ewing was a fadeaway shooter, not a particularly dominant inside offensive player. As for the bulls/pacers, one word, smits, a stiff. I dont think the bulls competition had balance (as in an inside outside game) for much of their era.

A team game is always harder to defend than an individual and MJ only ascended to true greatness when he recognized that. MJ's last championship he shot 35% for the final series, a terrible performance for him, or for any "go to" guy. Still, I consider MJ to be the 2nd greatest guard of all time behind magic, and those bulls teams had great perimeter defense with MJ/Pippen. Its not that I dont like MJ, what basketball fan doesnt, but magic was THE greatest player of all time because he made good players into "near all stars" on any given night.

you make some good arguments, but some are faulty. yes, the celtics are definitely one of the best teams of all time - but you're underselling the lakers' talent severely! worthy was a perennial all-star. byron scott was incredibly talented. and they had unreal depth with coop, ac green, mychal thompson (wasn't he the #1 pick in a draft?), rambis, etc. they had a legit starter at every spot. yeah, magic was impossible to match up with, but he was also a liability against most teams b/c he couldn't keep up defending smaller quicker pgs and had to guard shooting guards, where he was only incrementally a better defender.

and thought magic had to contend with the great celtics team, other than a tier below sixers team, there wasn't much more competition. jordan's bulls, on the other hand, may not have had an equal as the celts were to the lakers, but they had a slew of second-tier teams and they beat down every single one of them. the suns, jazz, sonics, blazers, bad boys, knicks, and later the magic, were all "near-greats." and bulls beat back every single one of them.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

During the 80's I was a sixers fan(grew up in phila), so I only have the bias of respecting the greatness of these teams, that is basketball skills bias. Both those teams had the inside outside game down and great passing, as well as multiple HOF players. When my sixers fianlly broke through in 1983, it was like coming up for air in an era of dominated by lakers and celtics. The sixers has moses, Dr J, Andrew Toney, and cheeks and still struggled to get by those celtics/lakers. I became a suns fan as I loved showtime ball and when the 76ers traded charles it pushed me to the suns even though I still lived in phila. I also really enjoyed MJ and the bulls, but the bulls didnt have the inside/outside balance on offense or defense(and neither did their competition). Truly great teams must have that balance to prevent being abused by simple matchups. When the bulls had Bison Dele for a year, they had the inside defense, but they never had a potent low post threat on offense. This is why I dont rank them among the top 5 of all time.

and this is why i think jordan the greatest of all time. he won against all types of teams without the balance that magic and bird had to work with. he won DESPITE not having the typical recipe for success.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Exactly. The main reason people fall all over themselves to proclaim Jordan as the unassailable Greatest for All Eternity is that they can be assured that a chorus of yes-men will join them, making them feel smart. Jordan was a great competitor and a great talent, but to portray him as some sort of extraterrestrial without weaknesses or failures is outright mythology.

to say that someone is the best is not to say that they are infallible. someone has to be the best, even if its subjectively decided. yeah, jordan did have his shortcomings. all we're saying is that shortcomings and all, he was still outta kobe's league, despite a bunch of idiots saying otherwise recently.

 

[Irish]

I've always felt that the Bad Boy Pistons revolutionized the NBA in a bad way. Chuck Daly determined that the refs called playoff games differently than regular season games and began a campaign of systematically fouling opponents and getting away with it. He almost single handedly brought about the "ugly ball" of the 90's.

Eventually Jordan learned enough about team basketball to get over the hump, but his biggest strength was the ability to score when fouled.

BTW, one of the reasons McHale was so great was that he learned how to avoid bringing the ball down after catching it or making an offensive rebound. It made his short terribly hard to defense because he put it back up so quickly and was never brought low enough for smaller guys to get at the ball.

 

[Ballamania]

and this is why i think jordan the greatest of all time. he won against all types of teams without the balance that magic and bird had to work with. he won DESPITE not having the typical recipe for success.

man i agree with this and have said this for years to people,the lilttle few who disagreed about jordan. there was no dump down in the paint guy on his team.......NEVER. also ,never has there been a guy standing only 6'6 feet tall to dominate games on both ends like that. normally when you think of dominating you think of a big guy but jordan still won SIX not two or four but SIX championships! its ridiculous what he accomplished all those years with no big man. he was the focus of defenses EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and still got it done.he is the man hands down IMO. oh yeah, he did have growing pains and the pistons did do well against him for a while but he broke through and never looked back.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jordan took awhile to even get past the first round,

this is where your argument and any argument dealing with the Magic v. Jordan debate falls apart. Jordan's second and third best players when he came in the league and "took a while to get past the first round" were Orlando Wooldridge and Quintin Dailey and he took a 27 win team and brought them to the playoffs (1985), then the next year, Charles Oakley and an older than dirt George Gervin (not to mention Jordan missed most of the entire season) and then the next year, the year after that was Oakley and John Paxson. The nano second Jordan got even just a smidgen of talent (and 2nd year raw guys like Pippen and Grant weren't all that impressive yet) he won and won big, taking a 6 seed to the Conference Finals, then becoming a 2 seed and getting back to the Conference Finals before becoming the greatest dynasty of the modern era.

Remind me again, what kind of scrubs did the Lakers have as their second and third best options when Magic got there? Oh yeah, arguably the greatest C in the game at that point (and one of the best of all time - a legend) and Jamal Wilkes, while winning 47 games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

During the 80's I was a sixers fan(grew up in phila), so I only have the bias of respecting the greatness of these teams, that is basketball skills bias. Both those teams had the inside outside game down and great passing, as well as multiple HOF players. When my sixers fianlly broke through in 1983, it was like coming up for air in an era of dominated by lakers and celtics. The sixers has moses, Dr J, Andrew Toney, and cheeks and still struggled to get by those celtics/lakers. I became a suns fan as I loved showtime ball and when the 76ers traded charles it pushed me to the suns even though I still lived in phila. I also really enjoyed MJ and the bulls, but the bulls didnt have the inside/outside balance on offense or defense(and neither did their competition). Truly great teams must have that balance to prevent being abused by simple matchups. When the bulls had Bison Dele for a year, they had the inside defense, but they never had a potent low post threat on offense. This is why I dont rank them among the top 5 of all time.

uh, what was Michael Jordan? You don't have to be a seven footer to be a low post threat on offense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Exactly. The main reason people fall all over themselves to proclaim Jordan as the unassailable Greatest for All Eternity is that they can be assured that a chorus of yes-men will join them, making them feel smart. Jordan was a great competitor and a great talent, but to portray him as some sort of extraterrestrial without weaknesses or failures is outright mythology.

good lord. nothing like taking a pure basketball discussion and making it personal. kudos eric. now why don't you run along back to your other site that you specifically created to whine about this site. toodles.

 

[Covert Rain]

The Kobe versus Jordan thing is not even debatable. Jordan is the best player to ever play the game IMO. Did he have faults? Yep and so does every hall of fame player to date. They all had faults in their games and hiccups in their careers. It doesn't make them any less great. So why does someone have to state that in order for their opinion not to be dismissed as "being sheepish because everybody else says so" type thing? I think it's common knowledge no basketball player despite how great wasn't perfect.

My litmus test when it comes to Jordan and Kobe is that when Jordan was on top of his game he made the other teams stars inconsequential. When Jordan came up against another star he just seemed to elevate his game that much more. Not every single time but often enough to make your jaw drop.

Kobe is a great player in the league and is arguably the best player in the NBA. When Jordan was at the top of his game there was no debate.

I hated the Bulls with a passion at the time to. So being a "hater" doesn't mean I don't recognize how great a player is. Kobe is not and never will be on the same level as MJ.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I also think it's just strange that Gimp always ignores that Jordan's team consistently beat up Shaq's (4-0 in the Conference Finals), Zo's and Ewing's, but loves to point out how much they struggled against Hakeem and Robinson.

But yeah, they never had to contend with big men. I mean, tell me this, who did the Lakers have to deal with on the low post for the Celtics, the team you hold up as the standard bearer on the low post? McHale - yeah, he was a PF, much like Barkley, one of the greatest low post threats ever as well.

Bottom line, the Bulls kicked the snot out of Shaq, Barkley and Malone, pretty much three of the greatest power players of all time, all 60 game winners, and twice didn't even have homecourt advantage, not to mention kicking the snot out of Ewing and Zo.

You wanna give excuses to Olajuwon and Robinson and say Jordan never had to face them because they played on uneven teams, yet somehow denigrate the Bulls because they were the same way. Don't you see how that's the greatest indicator of just how incredible Michael was? Just weird.

 

[mojorizen7]

I believe that Jordans career playoff scoring avg/game is a +3 against his career reg season scoring avg/game.
IIRC Kobe's number is -1.
If my numbers are correct....nuff said.
If i'm mistaken....MJ still>Kobe.