When will people critically analyze Kobe Bryant's playoff performances?

[boisesuns]

good lord. nothing like taking a pure basketball discussion and making it personal. kudos eric. now why don't you run along back to your other site that you specifically created to whine about this site. toodles.

How was that personal? I'm not really seeing it here what was so personal about what he said. He made a comment on Jordan, who was being discussed in the thread. If anything, it was you who decided it was personal.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How was that personal? I'm not really seeing it here? He made a comment on Jordan, who was being discussed in the thread. If anything, it was you who decided it was personal.

you're right, this comment was all about basketball and not about anything on a personal level:

"The main reason people fall all over themselves to proclaim Jordan as the unassailable Greatest for All Eternity is THAT THEY CAN BE ASSURED A CHORUS OF YES MEN WILL JOIN THEM, MAKING THEM FEEL SMART."

this comment has nothing to do with Jordan, it has to do with the people who are talking about him. That is the very definition of getting personal, or do you not see the negative connotation of someone needing "yes-men to agree with them so they can feel smart". Why can't someone just believe Jordan was the greatest because of what they witness, as opposed to needing some kind of self-validation that the above quote says they do?

 

[mojorizen7]

MJ reg season career scoring avg= 30.1 ppg
playoff scoring avg= 33.4 ppg
-----------------------------
Kobe reg season career scoring avg= 25.0 ppg
playoff career scoring avg= 24.3 ppg

 

[Cheesebeef]

MJ career scoring avg= 30.1 ppg
playoff scoring avg= 33.4 ppg
-----------------------------
Kobe career scoring avg= 25.0 ppg
playoff career scoring avg= 24.3 ppg

has anyone looked at Jordan's stats from the Finals when he was in his prime? I won't argue that post-1st retirement Jordan was "incredible" at anything except being ridiculously clutch when it mattered most and still being the best player in the league, even though he was past his prime, but during his first run, jeez, his numbers are flat out disgusting.

34.2 ppg, 7.4 assts, 6.2 rebounds on 53% shooting over 18 games. In only 3 of 18 games did he even shoot below 50%.

 

[mojorizen7]

34.2 ppg, 7.4 assts, 6.2 rebounds on 53% shooting over 18 games. In only 3 of 18 games did he even shoot below 50%.

Sick.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I don't have time to read thru this entire thread, but please tell me there isn't anyone here stupid enough to think that Kobe is a greater player than Jordan, is there??

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't have time to read thru this entire thread, but please tell me there isn't anyone here stupid enough to think that Kobe is a greater player than Jordan, is there??

no, but Donald continues to hold firm to this:

"From a talent standpoint, they are right there with each other, which is where the comparisons are valid."

even though there's nothing he can point to which backs it up (as evidenced not only by the fact that Jordan was unstoppable, but his numbers in every category at every level of his game save three point shooting pale in comparison to Michael's at this point in their respective careers (not to mention overall, even when Jordan's years where he was past his prime are figured into it).

 

[mojorizen7]

Kobe has emulated his entire game & persona to be like Mike and why not?
He's the closest anybody's come to MJ's talents , so maybe Kobe deserves a Ladmo bag for his efforts.

 

[nowagimp]

and this is why i think jordan the greatest of all time. he won against all types of teams without the balance that magic and bird had to work with. he won DESPITE not having the typical recipe for success.

First, I was not impressed with winning 2x against the jazz, a team without a credible low post threat, none at all(shandon anderson?, mailman? please!). This basically played into the bulls hands matchup wise as they were a great team on perimeter defense. Not impressed with the knicks or pacers using stiffs up front. The lone post threat Ewing, was a shooter of fade away jumpers. The houston rockets got their guards from the cba, it was all the talk that the leaguye would never trade a good guard to houston. Then when they got cassel, they won. After those 2 championships, Olajuwon had his heart trouble, couldnt really polay anymore. I remember watching the bulls/rockets in the early 90's, Hakeem turned the bulls into a jumpshooting team as they had no low post threat. Sorry the bulls werent balanced, but had the greatest starting guards of all-time, granted. That was good enough for 6th -8th best all time.

Ouchie: michael thompson, please, kwame was a #1 pick dont use that argument. AC green was good, but with magic he was an all star. Byron scott was a great shooter, but wasnt a big threat going to the rack. Coop was a great defender, but not a starter offense wise on most teams James Worthy a SF body playing PF, possible only with magic. The lakers had good depth, but the celtics with bird Mchale(best low post scorer of his era) and parrish was as dominant front line as I've ever seen. DJ at the point was all NBA defense and a very good PG. Then they had shooters as well, that team was stacked. But magic overcame even all that talent, taking unbelievable clutch shots and making the dishes no one else could make.

 

[nowagimp]

uh, what was Michael Jordan? You don't have to be a seven footer to be a low post threat on offense.

Jordan was a mid range jump shooter against a David robinson or an Hakeem, not a low post threat. I watched them against the rockets many times, heaving outside shots all game in the half court, afraid to be erased by Hakeem. Sure the bulls won most of the games when they pressured the houston guards into TO's(CBAers mostly), no suprise there.

 

[D-Dogg]

no, but Donald continues to hold firm to this:

"From a talent standpoint, they are right there with each other, which is where the comparisons are valid."

even though there's nothing he can point to which backs it up (as evidenced not only by the fact that Jordan was unstoppable, but his numbers in every category at every level of his game save three point shooting pale in comparison to Michael's at this point in their respective careers (not to mention overall, even when Jordan's years where he was past his prime are figured into it).

Why can't someone just believe Kobe and Jordan's talent levels are right there with each other because of what they witness

adapted, of course. You can NOT compare players...the eras are very different, the competition, the teams...just different. Jordan wouldn't have averaged the way he did if he played with Shaq...he likely would have "ran Shaq out of town." I look at their skill set, the way they play the game and their abilities. They are close. What is ultimately done with those abilities...who knows? Kobe's first four years were as a teen then early 20s. He was a bench player coming in. Completely different paths...stats aren't going to tell me whether their talent level is close.

People who have played with both of them say they are close. People who have coached both of them say they are close. My eyes tell me they are close. It really isn't that big of a deal, and the debate is kind of pointless. Jordan's done more....Kobe's not done doing his thing yet. They are very similar, but different in many ways as well. Big whoop, at this point.

 

[nowagimp]

I also think it's just strange that Gimp always ignores that Jordan's team consistently beat up Shaq's (4-0 in the Conference Finals), Zo's and Ewing's, but loves to point out how much they struggled against Hakeem and Robinson.

But yeah, they never had to contend with big men. I mean, tell me this, who did the Lakers have to deal with on the low post for the Celtics, the team you hold up as the standard bearer on the low post? McHale - yeah, he was a PF, much like Barkley, one of the greatest low post threats ever as well.

Bottom line, the Bulls kicked the snot out of Shaq, Barkley and Malone, pretty much three of the greatest power players of all time, all 60 game winners, and twice didn't even have homecourt advantage, not to mention kicking the snot out of Ewing and Zo.

You wanna give excuses to Olajuwon and Robinson and say Jordan never had to face them because they played on uneven teams, yet somehow denigrate the Bulls because they were the same way. Don't you see how that's the greatest indicator of just how incredible Michael was? Just weird.

First beating young inexperienced Shaq and co, and Zo( a rook?) who had inferior support is NOT even attributable to MJ by himself. Zo was not a great low post scorer, much like Ewing. The bulls used stiffs like wennington, longley and cartwright ONLY because the competition(best playoff teams) did not have strong big men down low on offense. yeah the bad boys, laimbeer and salley were worthless down low, and rodman was a defender, not an offensive threat. The pistons best low post player was james edwards, a sobering fact (are you kidding?). Barkley ate up the bulls front line, as did hakeem. As suns fas were well aware, barkley was a terrible defender so, yes MJ could go inside against a barkley team, and even guys like wennington and luc longeley could score against charles and negate some of his impact. If the jazz even had a good big man, probably -2 championships for MJ.

Excuses for big men are easier as poor guard play means they dont even get the ball. MJ never had that problem as he had it the most of the time. Some minimum level of guard play is required and olajuwon and robinson never played with anything NEAR all star caliber guards early in their careers before they won. Getting the ball to a big guy down low with a good perimeter defensive team playing the passing lanes takes a quality PG, not a kenny smith who couldnt even dribble in traffic, please. Besides I am not saying Jordan wasnt great, but some people over rate him and his bulls teams against his historical peers IMO. Mchale wasnt just a great scorer, he was a great shot blocker, much better than Tim Duncan, but not as good as David Robinson. Mchale also had 7' Parrish on help in the lane, very tough. Even (pre ACL)Wilt couldnt win it all until he had some decent guards to handle the ball, in spite of smoking russel for 35/25 for his CAREER. Imagine that 35/25 (w/ a ridiculous shooting percentage) against the best defender in the NBA, but still couldnt win.

 

[Cheesewater]

Kobe has emulated his entire game & persona to be like Mike and why not?
He's the closest anybody's come to MJ's talents , so maybe Kobe deserves a Ladmo bag for his efforts.

Nice.

I remember when it was a full-size grocery bag...

 

[jandaman]

adapted, of course. You can NOT compare players...the eras are very different, the competition, the teams...just different. Jordan wouldn't have averaged the way he did if he played with Shaq...he likely would have "ran Shaq out of town." I look at their skill set, the way they play the game and their abilities. They are close. What is ultimately done with those abilities...who knows? Kobe's first four years were as a teen then early 20s. He was a bench player coming in. Completely different paths...stats aren't going to tell me whether their talent level is close.

People who have played with both of them say they are close. People who have coached both of them say they are close. My eyes tell me they are close. It really isn't that big of a deal, and the debate is kind of pointless. Jordan's done more....Kobe's not done doing his thing yet. They are very similar, but different in many ways as well. Big whoop, at this point.

talent wise... Jordan technically is more talented. Who did Jordan study? Who did Jordan benchmarked?.... he patterned no one closely.. but he did learn from various players before him.

Bryant had a blueprint to mimic.... videos to watch and learn from.... moves to copy and try to improve on.... he also had the physical advantages due to today's nutrients and training.




Phil said both were close?
First off, Phil stated Jordan would average 40+ in today's perimeter "friendly" game. Imagine Jordan without being hand checked, getting to the line as much as today's stars. A 37 year old Jordan was able to score 20+, yes inefficient compared to his prime obviously but he did.

Bryant is always going to be chasing Jordan, always going to be the student trying to figure out a way to surpass the master... but won't. Doesnt have the that brilliance that Jordan has.... Bryant is brilliant in his own right, but just not the same...


In Jordan's prime, he is heads and shoulders ahead of Bryant... dont let the "PPG" fool you. Jordan's choice of shots were much better than Bryant as shown by their efficiency of scoring, Jordan also KNEW when and where to go for the KILL every time, as opposed to Bryant's "most of the time".
Defensively, Jordan would take over also, get the key steal, the key block, the key hustle play.... decision making wise its not even close.


as a leader, Jordan was a bast4rd, he would have your head if you slack, but the thing is, his team mates reacted positively most of the times... Bryant tries the same, his team mates usually dont react the same way.... tells you that Jordan, as much of a bast4rd he was, also knew how to get the best out of his team mates...




Yes, talent wise, if you watch them it seems close... but I saw both... I see Bryant now.... all I see are Jordan's moves in which he learnt from countless hours of videos.... a wannabe.... he's skilled no doubt about that, and yes he has done the best Jordan impersonation out of everyone who has tried.... but thats all I see...... impersonation.... not the genuine stuff..

 

[Cheesebeef]

First beating young inexperienced Shaq and co, and Zo( a rook?) who had inferior support is NOT even attributable to MJ by himself. Zo was not a great low post scorer, much like Ewing. The bulls used stiffs like wennington, longley and cartwright ONLY because the competition(best playoff teams) did not have strong big men down low on offense. yeah the bad boys, laimbeer and salley were worthless down low, and rodman was a defender, not an offensive threat. The pistons best low post player was james edwards, a sobering fact (are you kidding?). Barkley ate up the bulls front line, as did hakeem. As suns fas were well aware, barkley was a terrible defender so, yes MJ could go inside against a barkley team, and even guys like wennington and luc longeley could score against charles and negate some of his impact.

a) huh? You do realize that Wennington and Longley never played against Charles in that series as they weren't on that team, right? As to your other point bringing up Charles, again, I'm REALLY put off by this part of your argument. You say that Barkley was a terrible defender so yes, MJ could go inside against him... as proof of what? That against a team with big men, MJ couldn't destroy them as well. Again, he destroyed the Pistons who were huge, the Knicks who brutalized him and were big, the Magic with Shaq and Horace and Zo who is one of the best defensive C of all time.

If the jazz even had a good big man, probably -2 championships for MJ.

huh? So if the Jazz had an All-Star Team they could beat the Bulls? I guess that's what you're saying, because apparently having a very good SG a deep bench and probably the 2nd best PGs and PF of all time denigrates what the Jazz were able to accomplish.

 

[Ballamania]

i agree on all those accounts cheese. so in other words yeah, what you said.lol

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ouchie: michael thompson, please, kwame was a #1 pick dont use that argument.

are you really comparing Thompson to Kwame Brown? Do you want to name me how many number 1 overall picks Michael played with? ZERO. How about Magic? Let's see... Kareem (one of the greatest players of all time), Worthy (one of the greatest player sof all time), Michael Thompson (a good player throughout his career and great big man off the bench) - that's three just on one team. What about Byron Scott who was the 4th overall pick in the draft? tOr let's go back to Magic's first couple team, with Kareem (in his prime) and Bob McAdoo, the 2nd overall pick in the draft or Jamaal Wilkes who was the 11th overall pick in his draft.Magic was incredible and I believe him to be the second best player ever, but to somehow imply he wasn't surrounded by an EMBARASSMENT of riches throughout his 10 year run just doesn't hold a lot of weight IMO Magic seemingly always had at least 2 other players who were either #1 or #2 picks overall, guys who played at high levels with or without him.

 

[Covert Rain]

Phil said both were close?

Let's get something straight. Phil says alot of things. Remember when Phil blamed Kobe for the breakup of the Lakers. Remember the interview where he said he didn't blame Shaq? Remember Phil's book?

Come on, Phil Jackson says what he has to in the moment. Take any comparisons he makes to Kobe and Jordan (while he still has Kobe) for what it is.

First off, Phil stated Jordan would average 40+ in today's perimeter "friendly" game. Imagine Jordan without being hand checked, getting to the line as much as today's stars. A 37 year old Jordan was able to score 20+, yes inefficient compared to his prime obviously but he did.

Game set match. OMG. Jordan would go off even more with some rule changes.

The Hand check rule would make him even more unstoppable. Guys wouldn't be able to ride him during drives.

3 Second and Illegal Defense. The old guildlines were lax and not called as consistently. A player could sag off his defender as long as he didn't spend more then 3 seconds at a time in the lane. Meaning as long as you got back out for a second you could get right back in. It allowed guys to pack the paint when Jordon drove. The 3 Second rule is now more defined. Also, you can be called for illegal defense if your not aggressively guarding another player unless your in the Zone.

What about Zone? Jordan would probably have a field day breaking down the Zone today.

Without all the advantages that Kobe has today in rules that favor scoring, Kobe is not even as good as Jordan now. Kobe might be great in this era but Jordon would have been even greater in this era. That's the difference. No contest.

 

[jandaman]

I remember reading a comment from the current Laker's trainer.. and ex-bulls trainer... cannot remember his name, sure I can google it, but I know his face.. and most here too..

when asked who was better, Jordan or Bryant..

He smirked and basically, he basically said, in their primes, Jordan is simply the superior player. Thats pretty much all you can say...



Phil would never say it on public or record that Bryant wasnt close to Jordan, he knows Bryant is immature... was?.... I think he still immature.. but not as much.... I mean, listen to his interview... "Yes I want to be the best"... "I want to be the best".... he sounded like a kid, obsessed about his hero...

Jordan said it too, but he didnt say it the way Bryant said it... and I've heard both say it... Bryant said it as if he was mimicing Jordan.. again. Just didnt sound as genuine or serious as when Jordan said it....

I'm not a qualified psychologist, but I did spend time studying it... and you can tell these things.... Bryant is a talented player that has small man syndrome.. all a bit of it.... if he actually stopped trying to be better than Jordan or BE like Jordan, he would of translated to a legendary player himself.... if he left his own mark... his own trade mark moves, his own signature... his own style... we would be talking about "Who is going to be the next Bryant!"... as well as "who is going to be the next Jordan"..... not "Bryant is the next Jordan".......

LeBron James, hopefully, become his own legend and not be the next Jordan....

 

[Cheesebeef]

First beating young inexperienced Shaq and co, and Zo( a rook?) who had inferior support is NOT even attributable to MJ by himself.

how was Zo a rook in 1997? How did he have inferior support? His team won 61 games if I'm not mistaken. And how was Shaq inexperienced when they got swept? They made the Finals the previous year and won 60 games the next? What more experience does a team need? And how did Shaq's Lakers fare against the Bulls as they got "more experienced'? I'm also pretty sure you named Robinson as a low-post threat - really? He was like the original KG. His speed on the outside was what made him effective, not his play in the post, or do you not remember how ridiculously soft Robinson was? You keep making so many statements that just don't seem to jive with memory or even some time facts.

 

[Cheesebeef]

adapted, of course. You can NOT compare players...the eras are very different, the competition, the teams...just different. Jordan wouldn't have averaged the way he did if he played with Shaq...

you're right. he would have never shot 43% like Kobe did when he played with Shaq who was commanding double teams as the most dominant force in the game.

 

[Ryanwb]

Cheesebeef, you need to post here more often... you never cease to amaze me.

 

[Ballamania]

the man is putting a lot of truth out there and others are just saying what they barely remember and mostly wrong.

 

[Gee!]

Cheesebeef, you need to post here more often... you never cease to amaze me.

Dont go giving him a big ego.. Its ugly when its big..

 

[cobbler]

agreed and for any Laker fan to think Suns fans didn't hate MJ (the man killed us in our only real title hope in the past 32 years) like they hate Kobe is fooling themselves.

Magic was without a doubt the greatest PG ever to play the game, but comparing him to MJ just doesn't wash. It doesn't matter how good of a teammate you are or how much better you can make everyone else when singlehandedly, no one in the world could ever stop you. 6 titles, much less talent to work (like you said, Magic had the benefit of playing with another LEGEND, to go along with a host of other ridiculous talent), never losing in the Finals or once he got there for the first time (and anyone who brings up 1995 when he came back with 17 games to go is a fool). No one in the history of sport did what Jordan did.

Look up Russell, Bill.