Whiz is Toast

[Rats]

[

reality check Rats. The overwhelming majority of the entire board has my back as you, Mitch, azsouth and Bobat, NJ are pretty much the only people caling for Wiz to be fired now and holding on to the fact that DG did anything here but fail miserably as a coach.[/QUOTE]

No I have been saying because he has a contract extension we are stuck with him for at least another season. I have been saying we will win nothing because he can't get top talent here. I have been saying his gameday playcalling sucks. None of us control when he will be fired but my guess is this time next year he hits the skids. I have said I will eat the crow next season if he leads us to another division title. But I don't see it happening. Would I rather have him gone now and save us another lost season. Yes. I know it simply won't happen. I am not calling for Wiz to be fired. I, as all others that you seem to think have your back are saying WIZ STOP SUCKING!!

 

[Rats]

Because Whis was able to translate his experience into SUCCESS with this franchise

Denny translated his experience into FAILURE

The Law of Diminishing Returns is not on your side. The more you mention the Chili Dog, the lamer it gets

How is it failure when you inherit a Triple A roster( Dave Macs players) and you turn it into SB contending roster? DG did this. How is it your success alone when you won with players that you had no hand in bringing here. DG was both good and bad but not a failure here. Any Cards fan knows this.

 

[Rats]

"substantial" record as a playoff failure and outright laughingstock with the Cardinals?

Maybe in your eyes. He got us the players that took us to the SB. I would not call him a laughingstock here . He took most all of his Minny teams to the playoffs over 10 seasons. If Whis does this and this is the only season we miss the playoffs then I will eat crow and say he is the greatest Cards coach ever. I will not however be waiting for this as that dinner bell will never ring. It will however ring for you. Will you and yours eat the crow??? Doubt it.

 

[TJ]

DG was both good and bad but not a failure here. Any Cards fan knows this.

Apparently me and about 99% of other Cards fans do not know this, so you should probably begin a campaign to help us understand this concept, because you are trying to sell me on the fact that Denny, a guy who won a grand total of 16 games in three seasons, did far and away more than Whisenhunt, who in three seasons (first three ever as a head coach) won 27 plus 4 more games in the playoffs? All you have proven was that Denny is a good scout because he couldnt coach it to any victories. Even if you were to dismiss any success Whiz had bringing in talent, he did much more with the same players and front office than Denny could.

Denny failed here. Period, end of discussion

 

[Cheesebeef]

How is it failure when you inherit a Triple A roster( Dave Macs players) and you turn it into SB contending roster?

a) it was a 9-7 to 10-6 team that WAYYYYYYYY over-achieved in Wiz's second year, or don't you remember pretty much everyone dogging that team before the playoffs and then having EVERY BREAK go our way. We were a 9-7 team hosting the NFC title game... against a team that was 9-6-1!

DG did this.

He brought in three great players, had a couple left-overs from the Mackage and had zero clue how to coach them. Great.

How is it your success alone when you won with players that you had no hand in bringing here.

uh, because it's a coaches job to coach players. Wiz showed he had a better hand at doing that with this team then Denny did.

DG was both good and bad but not a failure here.

yes he was. A coach's job is to win games. When you don't even have ONE winning season, or even come within two games of .500, I think that qualifies ANYONE as a failure. He never had ONE year of success. How you can argue he wasn't a failure is beyond me... and probably anyone else that watches football.

Any Cards fan knows this.

He brought in three very good players while passing on HOF QBs... great. Yippee. The rest of his drafts were atrocious, Q and Wilson were already here and he made Kurt Warner look like a washed up has-been. EVERY cardinals fan knows THAT.

 

[Rats]

Apparently me and about 99% of other Cards fans do not know this, so you should probably begin a campaign to help us understand this concept, because you are trying to sell me on the fact that Denny, a guy who won a grand total of 16 games in three seasons, did far and away more than Whisenhunt, who in three seasons (first three ever as a head coach) won 27 plus 4 more games in the playoffs? All you have proven was that Denny is a good scout because he couldnt coach it to any victories. Even if you were to dismiss any success Whiz had bringing in talent, he did much more with the same players and front office than Denny could.

Denny failed here. Period, end of discussion

The Cardinals were a failure before DG ever arrived and got the organization drafting properly. They were clueless and he fixed that to some extent. Now they are back to being clueless with Whiz. And yes that is the end of the discussion. Someone else will have to start a campaign to help you feckless pack of ingrates....

 

[azsouthendzone]

Apparently me and about 99% of other Cards fans do not know this, so you should probably begin a campaign to help us understand this concept, because you are trying to sell me on the fact that Denny, a guy who won a grand total of 16 games in three seasons, did far and away more than Whisenhunt, who in three seasons (first three ever as a head coach) won 27 plus 4 more games in the playoffs? All you have proven was that Denny is a good scout because he couldnt coach it to any victories. Even if you were to dismiss any success Whiz had bringing in talent, he did much more with the same players and front office than Denny could.

Denny failed here. Period, end of discussion

"Me and 99% of the rest of the Cards fans feel" ...........if that makes you feel better......

You seriously overestimate the amount of folks here or anywhere that feel the same way you do. Just because you and a few vocal posters on here are quick to bash, name call, and attack anyone who isn't a Whiz fan doesn't mean that 99% of anyone feels the same way. As a matter of fact, it appears that a majority has turned since the beginning of the season when only a few on here, myself, Nashman, and others were willing to take your crew's bullets while suggesting that there was trouble on the horizon with Whisenhunt.

Whiz is officially a .500 coach. He was outscored -145 this year in the worst division in the history of the NFL. He will be fired next year without significant improvement. And that improvement will not come. This is not a "down year" that you may see from a team like the Pats caused by injuries. This was a debacle in the making since he took over. Some can see it, some like you cannot or refuse to. The cupboard is bare. 2011 is almost identical to Denny's first year. You think Whiz will rebound. I think he is incapable based on his inability to evaluate talent, manage player personnel, and the inability to motivate or prepare his team on game day, and based on reports that he is going after Bulger as his starter and that he will call plays again, I have seen nothing to show me otherwise. If you can tell me a few reasons why you feel he will be able to draft well, develop talent, and not get blown out every other game in 2011 I am willing to listen. I can change my mind. Can you?

 

[NJCardFan]

Apparently me and about 99% of other Cards fans do not know this, so you should probably begin a campaign to help us understand this concept, because you are trying to sell me on the fact that Denny, a guy who won a grand total of 16 games in three seasons, did far and away more than Whisenhunt, who in three seasons (first three ever as a head coach) won 27 plus 4 more games in the playoffs? All you have proven was that Denny is a good scout because he couldnt coach it to any victories. Even if you were to dismiss any success Whiz had bringing in talent, he did much more with the same players and front office than Denny could.

Denny failed here. Period, end of discussion

First off, you need to develop some reading comprehension because I haven't called for Whiz to be fired. If I have, please post it here but I can probably find several postings by me that show that I don't believe he should, some right here in this very thread. Here's one for starters:

Now, should Whiz be fired? No.

2nd, when comparing bodies of work, Whiz doesn't come close to Green. Was Green unsuccessful here? Yes but so were a lot of other coaches. But what he did do is bring in some good talent. Something you pablum eaters refuse to give him credit for. Now let me ask you, who attributed more to Whiz's success, the players he brought in or the players who were brought here by Green or who were already here? Whiz brought in players to compliment what was already here. But since his arrival, he's purged all players except for a few, fact or fiction? Fact. You cannot deny this. And, yes, Green only won 16 games here. But he won 97 with Minnesota, had 5 seasons of 10 or more wins including 15 in 1998 and won with a motley crew of QB like Jim McMahon and Jeff George. The only thing Whiz has done that Denny hasn't and that was go to a Super Bowl but that wasn't his fault. It's not his fault his kicker decided to choke at the most inopportune moment. But in the grand scheme of things, Denny, in his complete body of work, has coached circles around Whiz. This is indisputable fact and only a kool aid drinker like yourself will deny this. This team was in complete turmoil when Green was hired and they only gave him 3 years to straighten it out. It's no coincidence that the players he brought in were extremely helpful in getting this team to respectability but it took Whiz 1 season to drag is all down to same ol Cards. This cannot be denied. You can call me names all you want but you can't deny the facts I've laid out here.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Just saying but Denny Green didn't win with Jeff George...He just lucked into the greatest WR prospect of all time who who fell because of off the field issues and dominated like no other receiver in his prime. Also, Denny would've never came close to making the AFC championship with Cunningham without Moss.

I'd say pretty much every Denny draft after 04 was on par with Whisenhunts 07 draft which was the worst of his short coaching career. Whisenhunt's drafts have improved every year though they still need improvement such as needing to draft offensive lineman and QBs higher. The 10' class has produced some extremely promising rookies who I see becoming impact players for this team for a long time unless of course the Bidwill's get cheap again.

 

[mojorizen7]

Pablum eaters?
WTF is that and what does it taste like?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Pablum eaters?
WTF is that and what does it taste like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablum

Cereal I guess.

 

[Duckjake]

Just saying but Denny Green didn't win with Jeff George...He just lucked into the greatest WR prospect of all time who who fell because of off the field issues and dominated like no other receiver in his prime. Also, Denny would've never came close to making the AFC championship with Cunningham without Moss.

I'd say pretty much every Denny draft after 04 was on par with Whisenhunts 07 draft which was the worst of his short coaching career. Whisenhunt's drafts have improved every year though they still need improvement such as needing to draft offensive lineman and QBs higher. The 10' class has produced some extremely promising rookies who I see becoming impact players for this team for a long time unless of course the Bidwill's get cheap again.

Wait a minute. No WR can carry a team. Or at least that's what I've been told numerous times on this board.

 

[Duckjake]

duck, this is oversimplification at it's worst. People aren't villifying those who are criticizing Wiz. People are villifying those who think he should already be fired, had very little or NOTHING to do with ANY of the success we've had and are pining for Dennis Green.

Criticizing is fine. I think Wiz took a huge dump this season from a TON of angles. But saying he should be fired and had nothing to do with the best two seasons of football Arizona has ever seen in 22 years is their height of stupidity and would be villified by ANYONE who watches football and doesn't post on this board.

You are ignoring one very important thing. Half the responses to any post criticizing CKW include something to the effect of "you want Whiz fired? You are an idiot" even though the poster being attacked never once mentioned that Whiz should be fired.

 

[Mulli]

The Vikings went 8-8 in 1991 with Gerry Burns as coach.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/1991_roster.htm

Some seriously good players were on that roster when Green got there.

 

[Duckjake]

He was expendable....with good QB play. Teams don't need two top receivers, and on this team, Fitzgerald was clearly the better player.


We replaced him, with a player that was probably better.


He was, and is garbage. I watched the guy get annihilated consistently in 2009. As bad as Faneca was, he probably was a much better run blocker, but only a slighty worse pass blocker.


Dansby and Warner, and now in retrospect, the retirement of Bert Berry and the non-interest in Chike Okeafor were bigger losses to this football team. Bad QB play, lack of a edge pass rush, and ILB play were the primary killers of this football team.

Sure the offensive line was bad last year, but as I've contended with you multiple times, Kurt Warner made the offensive line look better. Once he regained his confidence, stopped fumbling all the time, Kurt Warner started playing lights out. I remember last season especially thinking that Kurt got hit more than any playoff QB, and it's a testament to his toughness that he stayed mostly healthy in 2009.

We can debate the merits of individual players forever but my point in this thread was that I think it is hypocritical of those who point out those players deficiencies to then turn around and bash posters for pointing out CKW's deficiencies.

Bad QB play, lack of a edge pass rush, and ILB play were the primary killers of this football team.

Just to point out how strange NFL football is: The Texans had good QB play, a top edge rusher and decent LB play (injuries hurt though) and finished 6-10.

 

[Duckjake]

Yes, passing on Big Ben and Phillip Rivers to take a WR when you had NO QUARTERBACK IS A JOKE. Plain and simple.

I'd bet you didn't feel that way in Tampa while Larry was running into the endzone with the go ahead TD.

Best performance ever in the post season by a Wide Receiver.

Fitzgerald also set a single postseason record with 546 receiving yards, 30 receptions, and 7 touchdown receptions, surpassing Jerry Rice's records of the 1988–89 NFL playoffs

Considering that Green brought in Warner the next season I don't see how not drafting Rivers or BenR hurt the franchise at all. Drafting Leinart instead of Cutler maybe. But not taking Fitz in '04.

 

[Heucrazy]

Wow are there really people spewing Denny love on here to try and run down Whiz? This is beyond ridiculous. Whiz had three good years and one crap year. Denny had three crap years and one good draft. I'll take Whiz. And my guess if the likes of Rats and his ilk weren't so pig headed they would as well.

 

[Duckjake]

Wow are there really people spewing Denny love on here to try and run down Whiz? This is beyond ridiculous. Whiz had three good years and one crap year. Denny had three crap years and one good draft. I'll take Whiz. And my guess if the likes of Rats and his ilk weren't so pig headed they would as well.

That is not what people like Rats are saying. They are looking at Green's overall coaching record. They are not saying Green was better in Arizona than CKW has been.

But always remember if it weren't for Denny Green and Neil Rackers and the Monday Night Meltdown we would never have had Kurt Warner as starter or Whisenhunt or a trip to the Super Bowl.

I still say we need Harry Turtledove to do an alternative history on what would have happened with the Cardinals if Rackers had made that kick against the Bears.

 

[cardpa]

Can we at least agree that Denny created or built the foundation that Whiz inherited to be successful?

Now with some of that foundation gone, time will tell if Whiz can rebuild it or contribute to its erosion.

 

[LarryStalling]

If you go back and look at the entire body of work that Denny Green put together, I find that he was an very above average evaluator of talent. This is demonstated by his drafts in Minnesota and Arizona. He picked some talent that had dubious character issues and managed to keep them on the straight and narrow path, ie Dockett and Moss.

If you look at his coaching ability over the entirety of his coaching tenure, with the exception of a couple of outstanding years in Minnesota, he was somewhere between below average and an marginal failure. His college record was abysmal.

 

[BigRedRage]

yeah, KW has been the most successful coach in cardinal history, lets fire him now because of one bad year

jesus

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Denny Green failed here, but wasn't a terrible coach. If Whiz fails here, it will likely be for the same reason the DG failed - lack of a strong FO.

When DG started, all the fans at the training camps were impressed because he ran a tight ship and was very organized compared to previous coaches. Our game plans were good, we played to our strengths a good portion of the time and we looked like a real football team at times. But the achilles heel was that he was allowed to keep his own staff when they were failing...the Vikings fans came to our board and said this would happen and that was his downfall in MN. Sure enough, it happens here and ever faster than in MN because our FO is weak.

If the FO doesn't impose some structure on Whiz that he is uncomfortable with, such as replacing Grimm as the OLine coach (as an example) or getting a real OC - then the same weak FO will be the reason Whiz fails. Coaches are hard headed and stubborn, just like we are as fans, and they need a FO or GM to keep them in-line.

Personally, I was ecstatic when we brought on DG - he didn't pan out because he was a few screws loose and needed someone to keep him in check - but from my seats, his tenure, along with the first round of changes from M Bidwill and Graves, represented our turnaround. Now I am ready for round two and hope this off-season that the FO shows some leadership and spine to help Whiz succeed in spite of himself.

 

[Heucrazy]

That is not what people like Rats are saying. They are looking at Green's overall coaching record. They are not saying Green was better in Arizona than CKW has been.

But always remember if it weren't for Denny Green and Neil Rackers and the Monday Night Meltdown we would never have had Kurt Warner as starter or Whisenhunt or a trip to the Super Bowl.

I still say we need Harry Turtledove to do an alternative history on what would have happened with the Cardinals if Rackers had made that kick against the Bears.

I love me some Harry Turtledove.

 

[TJ]

First off, you need to develop some reading comprehension because I haven't called for Whiz to be fired. If I have, please post it here but I can probably find several postings by me that show that I don't believe he should, some right here in this very thread. Here's one for starters:

Find me a post where I said "NJCardFan thinks Whis should be fired"

2nd, when comparing bodies of work, Whiz doesn't come close to Green.

Are you sure? Green had much regular season success at Minny including a 15 win season, but he did little in the post season. As a matter of fact, Whis in four years of coaching has the same amount of wins in the post season as Denny in 13 seasons. And to trump all of that, Whis has an NFC Championship. Denny, not so much.

Was Green unsuccessful here? Yes but so were a lot of other coaches.

Doesnt that sentence just add credibility to Whiz, since he is the only coach in 22 years of AZ/PHX Cards history to succeed?

But what he did do is bring in some good talent. Something you pablum eaters refuse to give him credit for. Now let me ask you, who attributed more to Whiz's success, the players he brought in or the players who were brought here by Green or who were already here?

This is where your argument begins to break down. What attributed to success was great coaching and a constructive plan. Not the players that were left over from a previous regime. You are criticizing Whiz on a common situation that exists in college and the pros. If a coach succeeds with someone else's players, then the other coach is better. No.

Whiz brought in players to compliment what was already here. But since his arrival, he's purged all players except for a few, fact or fiction? Fact. You cannot deny this.

You cant re-sign everybody. Plus, many of Greens impact players came in 2004. Youre not going to keep all of those guys for 6 years. Purging inevitably happens.

And, yes, Green only won 16 games here. But he won 97 with Minnesota, had 5 seasons of 10 or more wins including 15 in 1998 and won with a motley crew of QB like Jim McMahon and Jeff George. The only thing Whiz has done that Denny hasn't and that was go to a Super Bowl but that wasn't his fault.

The only thing? That's a big deal, dont you think?

It's not his fault his kicker decided to choke at the most inopportune moment. But in the grand scheme of things, Denny, in his complete body of work, has coached circles around Whiz. This is indisputable fact and only a kool aid drinker like yourself will deny this.

LOL @ the kool aid drinker thing again. By the way, the more you say "you cant deny this" or "this is indisputable" tells me you really aren't secure in your stance on this subject.

This team was in complete turmoil when Green was hired and they only gave him 3 years to straighten it out. It's no coincidence that the players he brought in were extremely helpful in getting this team to respectability but it took Whiz 1 season to drag is all down to same ol Cards. This cannot be denied.

But wouldnt you agree that it took Whiz 2 seasons to bring us back to respectability and out of the abyss of the NFL?

The reason your argument treads no water is because of statements like "it took Whiz one season to drag it all down." What about the previous three seasons? Would you agree that Green kept the team in the cellar?

You can call me names all you want but you can't deny the facts I've laid out here.

Are you so sensitive that you have to keep saying this? I believe you began the personal attacks by calling me a "kool aid drinker"

I think I remember you saying that the members on the Official MB told you that you take things too seriously. You really arent doing much to dispel that notion.

 

[Mulli]

Denny Green is who we think he is. If you want to crown him, go ahead and crown him.