Whiz is Toast

[Arizona's Finest]

It's easy to trash someone when they fail and praise them when they succeed, Mitch. What's not easy is stepping away from emotional outbursts and being objective.

A-freaking-men! Maybe the best two sentences I have read on this board in while.

Objectively speaking, Whiz made a lot of poor decisions this year, but has made tons of great ones in the past. I remember when most posters here was so mad at him when he started bringing Warner in for the 2 minute drill when Matt wasn't getting it done. We all know how great a COACHING decision that was in hindsight.

Whiz gets at least another half season to progress this team before anyone should objectively call him toast. If Bill Walsh can come off a SB win and have a 3 win season the next year, why can't Whiz go from 10-6 to 5-11 once?

He speaks for me. Great post all around.

 

[Duckjake]

Whiz is the coach of a team with no heart, little brains and zero accountability to this point. I don't know how people find him so easy to defend. The offense that was left in the form of Warner. Whis wasn't smart enough to change the game plan.

The defense has been absolutely embarrassing the past few seasons, and Davis will hopefully leave, but the fact that he's lasted this long is an indication of the ineptitude of the management of this team.

I am so off the Whis Wagon at this point. Watching Whis this year has made me so angry week after week. Repeated awful decisions should not be excused.

But whatever, none of it matters. Onto watching the Suns... crap.

Best post in the entire thread. Except for me its on to watching the Longhorn basketball team.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Mark this down, I bet what ever Luck doesn't do better than Skelton his first few games stat wise, and I also doubt he will be benched for a back up minor league QB after a tip for a pick.
Besides Luck and Newton, we already have everything in Skelton that is available in the draft.
He can throw, get around,he is smart, has the size, and doesn't turn it over like most rookies do. I am probably looking funny because this is what finally sent me over the ledge, but after a full season with zero adjustments (besides benchung QBs) and other teams knowing our plays as soon as we line up, (offense and defense) I don't see Whiz getting it together by next year.

Again, I am down with whizzing another year (homie earned that big time), but I am not optimistic. I hope we go undefeated.

Bro I guarantee Luck will have better numbers in 3 games then Sketon does all year. I get you like the kid but - and really no offense - you have gone off the deep end since Sunday in praising the guy and killing Wiz for pulling him in a 31-7 game where he missed read after read. HE CAN'T EVEN THROW FOR 200 YARDS.

Sure he has some nice "tools".....but he is a project at best. There are guys who deserve the level of hope and amount of defending that you currently for some reason have ear marked for Skelton. Like Andrew Luck for example.

Take it from someone who to this day has friends still mock me for my of passionate defense of Matt Leinart for three years. Don't let the Cardinal blinders cover the truth.

If Skelton was really that good - he would have showed it in one of the four games he started. Point blank period.

 

[binkar]

This is not meant to offend, though I am sure it will, but this thread is the kind of crap that makes me sick. Mitch, I know your a good dude and that you are mostly caught up in the emotion of an awfully painful season. However, you were all over the "In Whiz We Trust" bandwagon. The guy was the coach at the time when the Cardinals experienced the most success in franchise history. When Whiz interviewed for this job, Leinart was suposed to be a future star. He was the face of the franchise, and was becoming one of the faces of the NFL. I remember the quotes about Leinart being one of the central themes of the interviews during the hiring process. Warner, at the time, was a cast-off, a washed up old dude far removed from his prime. However, Whiz saw he still had it and went with him. He benched the most marketable figure the organization has had in years, for the washed-up old dude that had nothing left. This lead us to a near-super bowl, and back-to-back playoff seasons.

Now, after one poor season, you clamor him as an absolutely terrible coach who should be fired yesterday. Your not even giving the guy a chance to learn from his mistakes. Wasn't it the second chance we gave Warner that lead him to a hall-of-fame career? I would say second chances aren't always that bad.

Let me be clear, I have HATED a lot of his decisions this season. From the handling of the QB situation, the play calling, the lack of an offensive coordinator, Billy Davis being retained, etc... I never was an "In Whiz I Trust" guy, frankly, I thought it was cheesy and stupid , but not even giving a guy the opportunity to adjust and change is ridiculous. Almost all great coaches have had poor seasons. If he fails to adjust, and we see the same crap next year, then I am in agreement, but give the guy a chance.

 

[Early]

"One losing season since 2006? I cant take this!"

You must be registered for see images

Honestly. Relax. Take deep breaths before you all decide to jump.

I can only speculate on the following as I am only a fan of the Cardinals and have dealt with ineptitude for all of my life. But when a coach has three consecutive .500 + seasons, two division titles and one NFC Championship then subsequently has one bad season to date, it's time to fire him? I guess I need to do more in depth homework. I do seem to recall high profile coaches following up a successful season with a complete dud.

Bill Walsh won a Superbowl in 1981 with a 13-3 record. Then in a strike shortened 1982, his record was 3-6. He recovered obviously.

Bill Cowher has an 11-5 season in 1997 only to follow that up with 7-9 and 6-10 records the following two seasons. He recovered obviously.

This is not to say Whiz is on par with these two tremendous masterminds, it is to show that coaching perfection in the NFL is non existent. Much to the chagrin of the fan base, these let down seasons happen. The reasons can range from competition becoming superior to personnel turnover (just like this season). Sometimes, the cupboards cannot be refilled overnight. Sometimes, proper adjustments, whether in the playbook or personnel, take one lousy season to come to fruition.

The bottom line: many are jumping the gun on doing meticulous, unmerited evaluations on a coach who has proven success in this league, which cannot be disputed

Is Whiz infallible? Hell no. The QB situation was probably the death of the 2010 season. Him along with the front office should have decided the fate of Matt Leinart well before the offseason. They didnt. What ensued was silly FA signings to try and fix a leaky pipe with duct tape. That quickly burst as soon as DA took the field in Week 1.

However, Whisenhunt is only human like the rest of us. We all have made boneheaded decisions which cause us to reflect back and go, "man, I royally whiffed on that one." My hunch, just from listening to Whiz during interviews and press conferences, is that he recognizes it, but there was little that could be done to solve the problem on the fly. The profound changes needed to fix the damage can only be executed during the offseason. Graves has been known to not fire coordinators or handle player contracts during the middle of the season, so in actuality, what was there to do?

But there are moves made by Whiz which are just being completely blown out of proportion. For example, Skelton's first start and the alleged competition with Bartel. First, do you honestly believe Bartel was in a competition to supplant Skelton? No. That's ridiculous. Second, if you still believe that to be true, what's wrong with that? Nothing. There isnt anything wrong with testing the mental toughness of your raw rookie QB. If Bartel is signed off the street then Skelton is told he is battling out with him and later cries about it like Leinart did with Anderson, then you know you dont have an NFL QB. Simple.

The other perplexing insinuation was that benching Skelton in last Sunday's game was a bad idea. In what context? Midway through the third quarter, the game turned into a glorified preseason campaign where it was time to evaluate other players. Bartel is only on the roster for 20 more minutes. Why not see what you have in him before he is potentially gone? The QB situation was god awful all season long, regardless of who played. Once again, if Skelton takes that personally, he is not an NFL QB and the evaluation period ends.

Skelton, while possessing all of the tools, didnt exactly light it up when he was out there. Dont get me wrong, he has all of the physical and mental traits to be a good quarterback and showed some flashes, but the common knack on him is that he is incredibly raw coming out if little Fordham and needs time to polish his game. The 2011 offseason gives him that chance.

So in short, let's see how Whisenhunt rebounds. That is the barometer of a coach. All great coaches have had down seasons, it's how they dust themselves off that show their true worth.

Very well said. Great post, amazing. I agree...

If anyone expect to win games and go to playoffs without an QB on the roster, the expectations are way to high.Even in NFC west. No coach would have made much more out of this season. QB is wort half of the team, especially today. If we had a QB this year, we are talking playoffs now, i'm absoltely certain about that. Even mediocore QB was enough.

DA sucks. He can see the field, although not consistently. But even with open guys, he can't hit them to save his life. He is the most inaccurate QB in history of football and i'm serious about that.

Hall brings energy and maturity and can make some reads, he is going through those progressions at times. He is just way to small and not mentally ready to play this game yet. He can't deal with pressures and sacks and certainly can't identify them either pre snap. Huge problem. Has potential.

Skelton has physical tools and is mentally ready to take the hits and pressures. He is inaccurate and can't see the field at all. He makes the worst reads that you can make and has absolutely no ability right now to go through progressions and identifying where to go. He can only hit open recievers when they are his first read, and that strategy has not resulted in many 1st downs. If the first read is not open, he is not going to do well. In a way, he is the worst of all the three QB's right now. He needs to learn for a year or two. At least. He was exactly as advertises by Whisenhunt, right on the money. Talented, sure, but very very raw.

Give Whisenhunt a QB, and then let's see how it turns out. And Haley was not the mastermind of that offense. I believe that it was Warner and Whisenhunt even more than Haley, altough he had his impact. We can see it in Chiefs currently, he couldn't make that offense work in his first year, with almost the same personel as now, than Weiss came in and suddenly, it's explosive.


Warner too, wasn't great for the Cards without Whisenhunt and Haley. So he is not alone on this either. He needs help from people like Martz, Whiz, Haley to succeed. People need to start reailize that you can't think reductionistic about this. It's never a single person that has all the impact, but you some staff have more impact than others.

When all is said and done, Whis is the most succesful Cardinal coach of all time IMO, and he is good enough for this job. FO messed it up this ofseason, he got no QB, lost many players on defense. It was mission impossible, I certainly had no expectations, in fact, we did much better than i expected us to do, my guess was 2 wins this year.

And Leinart...Leinart sucks much more than any of the other three QB's. He lacks what is the most important trait. Being a man, a leader. In fact, i think all the three QB's on current roster , have that skill.

Without that skill, you should just be released, without getting a single chance anymore. It was the right decision to evaluate him as #4, thus releasing him.

I expect us to win and be competitive next year.

 

[desertdawg]

Bro I guarantee Luck will have better numbers in 3 games then Sketon does all year. I get you like the kid but - and really no offense - you have gone off the deep end since Sunday in praising the guy and killing Wiz for pulling him in a 31-7 game where he missed read after read. HE CAN'T EVEN THROW FOR 200 YARDS.

He would have went for over 200 yards and a couple TDs had Whiz left him in. IMO
I wanted to keep the faith, but I can't. I hope I am dead wrong. I think Skelton will be a starter, but with Whiz, I don't know anymore.Also why isn't Davis's picture on ESPN for being let go? Does Whiz really want to ride with him next year, if not, why hasn't this been done?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

"One losing season since 2006? I cant take this!"

You must be registered for see images

Honestly. Relax. Take deep breaths before you all decide to jump.

I can only speculate on the following as I am only a fan of the Cardinals and have dealt with ineptitude for all of my life. But when a coach has three consecutive .500 + seasons, two division titles and one NFC Championship then subsequently has one bad season to date, it's time to fire him? I guess I need to do more in depth homework. I do seem to recall high profile coaches following up a successful season with a complete dud.

Bill Walsh won a Superbowl in 1981 with a 13-3 record. Then in a strike shortened 1982, his record was 3-6. He recovered obviously.

Bill Cowher has an 11-5 season in 1997 only to follow that up with 7-9 and 6-10 records the following two seasons. He recovered obviously.

This is not to say Whiz is on par with these two tremendous masterminds, it is to show that coaching perfection in the NFL is non existent. Much to the chagrin of the fan base, these let down seasons happen. The reasons can range from competition becoming superior to personnel turnover (just like this season). Sometimes, the cupboards cannot be refilled overnight. Sometimes, proper adjustments, whether in the playbook or personnel, take one lousy season to come to fruition.

The bottom line: many are jumping the gun on doing meticulous, unmerited evaluations on a coach who has proven success in this league, which cannot be disputed

Is Whiz infallible? Hell no. The QB situation was probably the death of the 2010 season. Him along with the front office should have decided the fate of Matt Leinart well before the offseason. They didnt. What ensued was silly FA signings to try and fix a leaky pipe with duct tape. That quickly burst as soon as DA took the field in Week 1.

However, Whisenhunt is only human like the rest of us. We all have made boneheaded decisions which cause us to reflect back and go, "man, I royally whiffed on that one." My hunch, just from listening to Whiz during interviews and press conferences, is that he recognizes it, but there was little that could be done to solve the problem on the fly. The profound changes needed to fix the damage can only be executed during the offseason. Graves has been known to not fire coordinators or handle player contracts during the middle of the season, so in actuality, what was there to do?

But there are moves made by Whiz which are just being completely blown out of proportion. For example, Skelton's first start and the alleged competition with Bartel. First, do you honestly believe Bartel was in a competition to supplant Skelton? No. That's ridiculous. Second, if you still believe that to be true, what's wrong with that? Nothing. There isnt anything wrong with testing the mental toughness of your raw rookie QB. If Bartel is signed off the street then Skelton is told he is battling out with him and later cries about it like Leinart did with Anderson, then you know you dont have an NFL QB. Simple.

The other perplexing insinuation was that benching Skelton in last Sunday's game was a bad idea. In what context? Midway through the third quarter, the game turned into a glorified preseason campaign where it was time to evaluate other players. Bartel is only on the roster for 20 more minutes. Why not see what you have in him before he is potentially gone? The QB situation was god awful all season long, regardless of who played. Once again, if Skelton takes that personally, he is not an NFL QB and the evaluation period ends.

Skelton, while possessing all of the tools, didnt exactly light it up when he was out there. Dont get me wrong, he has all of the physical and mental traits to be a good quarterback and showed some flashes, but the common knack on him is that he is incredibly raw coming out if little Fordham and needs time to polish his game. The 2011 offseason gives him that chance.

So in short, let's see how Whisenhunt rebounds. That is the barometer of a coach. All great coaches have had down seasons, it's how they dust themselves off that show their true worth.

Awesome post TJ

 

[Duckjake]

only the die-hard sycophants believe this crap tho.

Well there aren't any other kinds of fans on this board.

How soon we forget the cacophony of don't let the door hit you in the rear on your way out and the guys who are leaving are easily replaced from last Spring.

Shane even had in his avatar that he was glad Dansby was gone. If I had a nickel for every Boldin is expendable because the Cards won more games than they lost while he was out injured I'd be retired. Rolle was a bum. RWells was garbage. ad nauseum. All those guys helped take us to the NFC Championship.

But the guys who bash on the coach after this horrible season are haters and stupid because the coach took us to the NFC Championship two years ago?

Sorry but that doesn't wash.

 

[Evil Ash]

Very well said. Great post, amazing. I agree...

If anyone expect to win games and go to playoffs without an QB on the roster, the expectations are way to high.Even in NFC west. No coach would have made much more out of this season. QB is wort half of the team, especially today. If we had a QB this year, we are talking playoffs now, i'm absoltely certain about that. Even mediocore QB was enough.

DA sucks. He can see the field, although not consistently. But even with open guys, he can't hit them to save his life. He is the most inaccurate QB in history of football and i'm serious about that.

Hall brings energy and maturity and can make some reads, he is going through those progressions at times. He is just way to small and not mentally ready to play this game yet. He can't deal with pressures and sacks and certainly can't identify them either pre snap. Huge problem. Has potential.

Skelton has physical tools and is mentally ready to take the hits and pressures. He is inaccurate and can't see the field at all. He makes the worst reads that you can make and has absolutely no ability right now to go through progressions and identifying where to go. He can only hit open recievers when they are his first read, and that strategy has not resulted in many 1st downs. If the first read is not open, he is not going to do well. In a way, he is the worst of all the three QB's right now. He needs to learn for a year or two. At least. He was exactly as advertises by Whisenhunt, right on the money. Talented, sure, but very very raw.

Give Whisenhunt a QB, and then let's see how it turns out. And Haley was not the mastermind of that offense. I believe that it was Warner and Whisenhunt even more than Haley, altough he had his impact. We can see it in Chiefs currently, he couldn't make that offense work in his first year, with almost the same personel as now, than Weiss came in and suddenly, it's explosive.


Warner too, wasn't great for the Cards without Whisenhunt and Haley. So he is not alone on this either. He needs help from people like Martz, Whiz, Haley to succeed. People need to start reailize that you can't think reductionistic about this. It's never a single person that has all the impact, but you some staff have more impact than others.

When all is said and done, Whis is the most succesful Cardinal coach of all time IMO, and he is good enough for this job. FO messed it up this ofseason, he got no QB, lost many players on defense. It was mission impossible, I certainly had no expectations, in fact, we did much better than i expected us to do, my guess was 2 wins this year.

And Leinart...Leinart sucks much more than any of the other three QB's. He lacks what is the most important trait. Being a man, a leader. In fact, i think all the three QB's on current roster , have that skill.

Without that skill, you should just be released, without getting a single chance anymore. It was the right decision to evaluate him as #4, thus releasing him.

I expect us to win and be competitive next year.

Too short, weak arm, can't handle pressure and still has potential?

 

[Early]

Stopped reading at the bolded section. Sorry Early, you're the only one left defending Max Hall

Nobody is defending him, i was critical in my post about Hall... He sucks, as does DA and Skelton. All three QB's are horrible because they have serious flaws in their game at this point. They all have some skills necesarry, but lacs many of the others. I'm just being realistic from what I have seen so far.

If we had even a below average QB on this roster this year, we would be talking playoffs now.

Defending is not exactly the word to describe it.

 

[Paso Fino]

I don't buy this "he deserves another chance" talk. I would hope the Cardinals are not running a rehabilitation clinic. The NFL is a tough business and when you under perform as bad as he did this year the team needs to move on. The idea that we could not get a good coach if he is fired is nonsense.

 

[tnmike]

I don't buy this "he deserves another chance" talk. I would hope the Cardinals are not running a rehabilitation clinic. The NFL is a tough business and when you under perform as bad as he did this year the team needs to move on. The idea that we could not get a good coach if he is fired is nonsense.

There's a genius up in Mass. thats available

 

[Early]

Too short, weak arm, can't handle pressure and still has potential?

Offcourse he has potential. If he develops the skills he lacks, he can play the game. He needs to learn the game pre snap and audible out of some terrible calls. That takes alot time to learn. If he puts on some weight and learns speed of the game, he will also learn to deal with pressure. Brees learned it eventually.

So yes, he has potential. But it is very unlikely to learn all those things over one season, if ever.

Skelton has more serious problems. He is very inaccurate and just doesn't understand the game at all. he needs to start from scratch and learn how to read defenses. Basic stuff. Has potential as well, just unlikely to learn all that in a single offseason. He needs at leat two years of coaching to play pro game.

 

[Pariah]

I don't buy this "he deserves another chance" talk. I would hope the Cardinals are not running a rehabilitation clinic. The NFL is a tough business and when you under perform as bad as he did this year the team needs to move on. The idea that we could not get a good coach if he is fired is nonsense.

I'll ask again since even just a couple of pages ago no one could answer: If taking the Cardinals (the Cardinals!) to the super bowl doesn't buy you at least one year of job security, what does it buy?

The man was literally within an inch of bringing the Lombardi trophy to the desert--something I'm sure none of us thought he could do before that season started.

Yes, this season was a disaster and much of it starts and stops with Whis. But I think he's earned his pass for this season based on his past performance. If this is repeated next year, I'll be selling feathers at the tarring.

 

[MrYeahBut]

As an aside to all this... I can't even imagine Dawg AT the prom, let alone with a date.



J/k

 

[desertdawg]

Skelton has more serious problems. He is very inaccurate and just doesn't understand the game at all. he needs to start from scratch and learn how to read defenses. Basic stuff. Has potential as well, just unlikely to learn all that in a single offseason. He needs at leat two years of coaching to play pro game.

LOL, wow, again we must have been watching different games. He did miles better than a the pro-bowl wash up Whiz brought. Skelton did spectacular for a rookie QB on this team with our pass protection...spectacular just because of the circumstances.
Everybody who says Skelton is years away is completely under evaluating what he has accomplished.
He can figure a lot out next season, and doesn't need to be babied for the 2-3 years some here say.

 

[desertdawg]

As an aside to all this... I can't even imagine Dawg AT the prom, let alone with a date.



J/k

I got to go to the prom my junior year, but was banned my senior year. (no j/k )

 

[binkar]

Bill Belichick was once fired for going 5-11. Don't think that means he was a horrible coach. He may have learned from his mistakes.

 

[Evil Ash]

Offcourse he has potential. If he develops the skills he lacks, he can play the game. He needs to learn the game pre snap and audible out of some terrible calls. That takes alot time to learn. If he puts on some weight and learns speed of the game, he will also learn to deal with pressure. Brees learned it eventually.

So yes, he has potential. But it is very unlikely to learn all those things over one season, if ever.

Unless he develops a much stronger arm or suddenly grows taller, his career is done. He seems like a good kid but he has way too many faults to keep him on an NFL roster

Skelton has more serious problems. He is very inaccurate and just doesn't understand the game at all. he needs to start from scratch and learn how to read defenses. Basic stuff. Has potential as well, just unlikely to learn all that in a single offseason. He needs at leat two years of coaching to play pro game.

I think people overstate his accuracy based on stats alone. He had a lot of drops from recievers on what was very catchable balls - Hightower, Doucet, and our TEs was especially awful in this regard.

He does need work on reading defenses no doubt. Some of that will come with film work and some will come with playing time. Most rookies struggle in this regard and he seemed to improve as he got more playing time. Not starter material yet but a good #2.

 

[earthsci]

I don't buy this "he deserves another chance" talk. I would hope the Cardinals are not running a rehabilitation clinic. The NFL is a tough business and when you under perform as bad as he did this year the team needs to move on. The idea that we could not get a good coach if he is fired is nonsense.

So you would fire Jeff Fisher (5-1, 4-12, 6-10 this season), Mike McCarthy (6-10) & Andy Reid (6-10)?

 

[Shane]

Bill Belichick was once fired for going 5-11. Don't think that means he was a horrible coach. He may have learned from his mistakes.

Or was just handicapped by inept management!

 

[earthsci]

Or was just handicapped by inept management!

Not to mention that the next time that he was a head coach he took a team that was 8-8 the year before and led them to a 5-11 record.

 

[Early]

Unless he develops a much stronger arm or suddenly grows taller, his career is done. He seems like a good kid but he has way too many faults to keep him on an NFL roster



I think people overstate his accuracy based on stats alone. He had a lot of drops from recievers on what was very catchable balls - Hightower, Doucet, and our TEs was especially awful in this regard.

He does need work on reading defenses no doubt. Some of that will come with film work and some will come with playing time. Most rookies struggle in this regard and he seemed to improve as he got more playing time. Not starter material yet but a good #2.

There have been some good weak arm QB's in this league. Pennington is one, and his arm is even weaker than Halls. It's not a necessary skill to have to play the game. Necessary skills are accuracy, leadership and reading the game, dealing with pressure. If you lack any of those four, you are in serious trouble.

Arm strength is a nice luxury on certain routes, and it helps sometimes. Unless you have too much, where it can become a liability on most even simple throws. The art of throwing the football is as Walsh said it to throw it soft and cachtable.

Timing is so much more important than arm strength.

So, i don't agree with you. Sure it's a liablity, but not a reason to exclude anyone.

What Skelton lacks, is much more serious than arm strength. He is very inaccurate, and i never base my opinions on stats, that is the last I would do. I base it on the throws i saw him make, he looked like DA at times.

And he reads the game so bad, that it will not just ake one offseason to fix that, we are talking much more serious problems than just study some tape for couple of weeks. He is very very raw. That's why he was pulled out of the game, so we could see someone else.

 

[binkar]

I don't buy this "he deserves another chance" talk. I would hope the Cardinals are not running a rehabilitation clinic. The NFL is a tough business and when you under perform as bad as he did this year the team needs to move on. The idea that we could not get a good coach if he is fired is nonsense.

I don't believe in unconditional second chances. I don't want the Cardinals to give Wendell Bryant a second chance. However, I do think Whiz merits an opportunity to learn from last year.

 

[Evil Ash]

There have been some good weak arm QB's in this league. Pennington is one, and his arm is even weaker than Halls. It's not a necessary skill to have to play the game. Necessary skills are accuracy, leadership and reading the game, dealing with pressure. If you lack any of those four, you are in serious trouble.

Arm strength is a nice luxury on certain routes, and it helps sometimes. Unless you have too much, where it can become a liability on most even simple throws. The art of throwing the football is as Walsh said it to throw it soft and cachtable.

Timing is so much more important than arm strength.

So, i don't agree with you. Sure it's a liablity, but not a reason to exclude anyone.

What Skelton lacks, is much more serious than arm strength. He is very inaccurate, and i never base my opinions on stats, that is the last I would do. I base it on the throws i saw him make, he looked like DA at times.

And he reads the game so bad, that it will not just ake one offseason to fix that, we are talking much more serious problems than just study some tape for couple of weeks. He is very very raw. That's why he was pulled out of the game, so we could see someone else.

We'll agree to disagree then because we see things very differently