Who Here Remembers Dumas?

[The Commish]

I remember Dumas well, one of my favorite Suns players. Too bad his talent was wasted.

I do have an interesting story about Dumas though. A close family friend of ours works in the Suns front office, and has for many years. He told us that we were within hours of trading Dumas straight up for Dennis Rodman when he was with the Pistons. Everything had been agreed to on both sides and both players had been informed of the pending trade. All that needed to be completed was the drug tests for both players and the deal would be finalized. Well our boy Richard "Doom Boom" Dumas tested positive for cocaine and thus the trade didn't go through. Dumas quickly found himself out of the NBA.

What could have been...

 

[Diamondback Jay]

I remember Dumas well, one of my favorite Suns players. Too bad his talent was wasted.

I do have an interesting story about Dumas though. A close family friend of ours works in the Suns front office, and has for many years. He told us that we were within hours of trading Dumas straight up for Dennis Rodman when he was with the Pistons. Everything had been agreed to on both sides and both players had been informed of the pending trade. All that needed to be completed was the drug tests for both players and the deal would be finalized. Well our boy Richard "Doom Boom" Dumas tested positive for cocaine and thus the trade didn't go through. Dumas quickly found himself out of the NBA.

What could have been...

I remember that near miss of a deal all too well. Imagine a front court of Barkley and Rodman, with Majerle at the 2 and KJ at the point. Wow.

 

[Neo]

Man, I loved Dumas. That guy really knew how to party. We used to hang out doing lines all the time. Then "The Man" got him down and he ended up leaving Phoenix. What a pity. That guy could really hold his snow.

 

[newfan101]

Well, once again we've all given the troll the attention he craves.

Bingo. LOL

But seriously, I love the Spurs too. Love that Terry Cummings. Think I'm kidding? Well take this: Remember Johnny Dawkins? Ha! I do. Put that in your pipe in smoke it, Spur Fans!!

 

[scotsman13]

personally i always liked ced game better then dumas's. if we would have had ced vs. the bulls we would have beat them.

 

[HooverDam]

And the Suns would have won the title in 93 if Celballos(sp?) would have played in the finals instead of breaking his foot in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then having Dumas start instead of him...Cedric absolutely gave Pippen fits during the regular season.

I totally agree!!!! I say this to people all the time and they look at me like Im insane. I loved CC, what a friggin stud. I should look up Pippens numbers during that series, I'd bet they wouldve been dramatically reduced if CC was there.

And of course I remember Dumas, I had a sweet tshirt w/ him on it.

My question for you, do you remember Malcolm Mackey? That one is easy, but lets see if anyone remembers Bayard Forrest??? I don't, he played before I was born (83) but my dad and his friends talk about him all the time. Apparently he spoke at some Youth Group meeting one of my sisters recently attended at NAU.

 

[Errntknght]

I remember the name Malcolm Mackey but I can't say I ever saw him play. My recollection is that he was a tweener forward. Bayard Forrest actually got onto the floor some... I think he was a local lad who played at GCJC. He didn't stay in the game too long and I don't recall what happened - whether injuries did him in or he just wasn't good enough. My recollection is a C, 6'11, 260, not athletic, decent touch but little range, no real flair for the game. Yep, he was white... sounds like the typical Suns center doesn't he?

 

[CardNots]

Yes, I remember Dumas. He came from my home town(Tulsa, Ok).

Last time I visited, I understood from the locals Dumas had pulled his head out of his butt and was coaching at a local high school in Tulsa.

What a wasted talent...

 

[Tony W]

Ceballos

And the Suns would have won the title in 93 if Celballos(sp?) would have played in the finals instead of breaking his foot in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then having Dumas start instead of him...Cedric absolutely gave Pippen fits during the regular season.

I've always thought Ceballos was "overated" he never really impressed me. Not even with the "blindfolded" dunk. Anyone else feel the same way?

 

[BC867]

... but lets see if anyone remembers Bayard Forrest???

I do remember Bayard Forrest . . . and how he could have actually brought us a Championship many years ago.

The Baltimore Bullets had won the NBA title the year before, and were about to advance to the finals from the East again.

It was generally acknowledged, though, that whichever team won the West would beat the Bullets.

The Suns met the Sonics in the Western finals. Center Alvan Adams went down with an injury. Instead of moving backup Center Bayard Forrest (6'10, 240) to go against 6'11" powerhouse Jack Sikma, Coach John MacLeod moved backup Small Forward Joel Kramer (all 6'7, 213 pounds of him) to starting Center.

Kramer played his heart out, but didn't stand a chance against Sikma. (Small ball didn't work in those days.)

The Sonics advanced to the Finals and beat Baltimore for the NBA Championship.

To this day, I believe that if Bayard Forrest went against Sikma, with the rest of the talent on the Suns, we would have won it all.

 

[elindholm]

Ceballos was a very gifted scorer, one of the best at eluding the defense and finding himself alone under the basket. But he wasn't a poor defender, didn't rebound much, and never gave the impression of taking his craft very seriously. I liked him as a player, and he would have helped in the 1993 Finals, but I don't see him as making a critical difference.

 

[Shawty]

Well, once again we've all given the troll the attention he craves. He starts a thread on one of the Suns' most depressing memories just to rile us up, and we all fall for it.

Good job, Shawty, you have a gift.

Next he'll ask how many of us remember the drug scandal, offering some half-assed explanation about how we aren't real fans if we don't.

Thanx. i think. Anyway, that's not a Suns' tragedy, it's an NBA tragedy. Guy had lots of game. Great how you have talent for pourin' cold water on the fire.

 

[nowagimp]

Thanx. i think. Anyway, that's not a Suns' tragedy, it's an NBA tragedy. Guy had lots of game. Great how you have talent for pourin' cold water on the fire.

My recollection of Dumas was that he was very talented and, of course, a tradgedy. I also really liked Ceballos, but he did not have the talent of dumas, but he had a superior work ethic. Dumas could finish around the hoop against jordan or pippen using quickness and an assortment of slick moves. He was so smooth with the ball around the hoop. I really think he could have been an all star. I do not think replacing him with ceballos would not have won the title in '93. In the '93 finals, Dumas shot 57% FG and scored 15.8 ppg while getting 1.25 steals in 26 mins/game. Mark west shot 62% but at 5.7ppg was not a big offensive contributor. No other player shot over 50% FG's for the suns. The 1.25 steals tied Majerle for the team lead, but Marle required 46 mins a game to get those steals. So, Dumas was amajor impact player in that series for whom the bulls had no answer, period. That title was lost due to poor defense, and an inability of KJ to get calls on the penetration. KJ was so much quicker than Pippen or Jordan, but couldnt get the foul calls(grabs) on the drive(the Jordan Factor).

 

[elindholm]

That title was lost due to poor defense

And most of all, it was lost between about 1:00 and 0:30 to go in Game 6. That's when, with a four point lead, Majerle pulled the string on a short baseline jumper, barely grazing the rim, and then Jordan calmly took the ball the length of the floor for a layup while the Suns stood and let him whiz by. Then the noose started to tighten and the Suns were in real trouble.

But we don't need to rehash that memory as well, do we?

 

[George O'Brien]

Does anyone remember just how bad the Suns defense was in 92-93? I looked it up. Data Basketball Opponents shot 47.9%! However, the Suns did out rebound opponets by 3 rpg.

At the same time, the Suns offense that year was amazing. They shot 49.3% and averaged 113.4 ppg with seven guys averaging in double figures.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Does anyone remember just how bad the Suns defense was in 92-93? I looked it up. Data Basketball Opponents shot 47.9%! However, the Suns did out rebound opponets by 3 rpg.

At the same time, the Suns offense that year was amazing. They shot 49.3% and averaged 113.4 ppg with seven guys averaging in double figures.

Also, that same year or the next year, IND had a record number of double digit scorers in one game. Something like 10 guys scored double digits in one game. They were the only 10 players to play the whole game, so the fact that everyone that played scored double digits was also a record....

 

[Shawty]

My recollection of Dumas was that he was very talented and, of course, a tradgedy. I also really liked Ceballos, but he did not have the talent of dumas, but he had a superior work ethic. Dumas could finish around the hoop against jordan or pippen using quickness and an assortment of slick moves. He was so smooth with the ball around the hoop. I really think he could have been an all star. I do not think replacing him with ceballos would not have won the title in '93. In the '93 finals, Dumas shot 57% FG and scored 15.8 ppg while getting 1.25 steals in 26 mins/game. Mark west shot 62% but at 5.7ppg was not a big offensive contributor. No other player shot over 50% FG's for the suns. The 1.25 steals tied Majerle for the team lead, but Marle required 46 mins a game to get those steals. So, Dumas was amajor impact player in that series for whom the bulls had no answer, period. That title was lost due to poor defense, and an inability of KJ to get calls on the penetration. KJ was so much quicker than Pippen or Jordan, but couldnt get the foul calls(grabs) on the drive(the Jordan Factor).

Masterful work. you'd be happy to know that I was rootin' for the Suns. I had tired of all the hoopla attributed to the Bulls. Plus, I like Sir Charles.

 

[SweetD]

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Such a waist.

 

[elindholm]

Such a waist.

You sure you aren't thinking of Oliver Miller?

 

[newfan101]

Such a waist.

You sure you aren't thinking of Oliver Miller?

LOL

 

[nowagimp]

Masterful work. you'd be happy to know that I was rootin' for the Suns. I had tired of all the hoopla attributed to the Bulls. Plus, I like Sir Charles.

I was/am also a big fan of CB, as I was a 76er fan, living in Phila, when he was drafted in '84. He came in fat and Dr. J. took him under his wing and changed his life. I saw Charles at his best, as a 76er, and was disappointed when he signed with the suns, though, that made me a suns fan. Strange how I ended up here 8 years ago, and now I bleed purple, and dont miss the 76ers at all.
It is interesting how many misconceptions of Barkley there are here in PHX, but I guess it goes along with the dissapointment of '93. Barkley was a better defender in Phila, and he was physically CUT, he became a lazy defender on a team(the suns) that did not value defense, as we have noted in this thread. Charles always wanted recognition and he realized that no one in the NBA got it by being a defensive player(except perhaps Rodman, who got notoriety due to the piston championships and his antics), so he dropped his effort in this area. Sadly, Charles never felt appreciated and that is why, I believe, he behaves like such an A__ . He was raised by his Grandma, and never had any social graces. Charles was always told that he couldnt do this or that(NBA, too short etc), so he was always a rebel.

 

[HooverDam]

Admittedly, I havent seen the tape in a long while, but....

Did it seem to anyone else that KJ was fouled by Horace Grant on the last play of the series? He was getting hacked going down the lane the whole series, but that time it was huge obviously. After Paxson made the three, the Suns had one last possession and Grant "blocked" KJ... I'd have to watch it again to be sure, but I remember a foul. But most likely it was my blind support of the Suns getting in the way of reality.

And about Ceballos in the 93 finals, its always nice to have another veteran on the floor. I think it was that year (or it was around then anyway) CC lead the league in FG% (mostly because half his "shots" were dunks). He did give Pippen fits for whatever reason, and I think he could've helped.

 

[nowagimp]

Admittedly, I havent seen the tape in a long while, but....

Did it seem to anyone else that KJ was fouled by Horace Grant on the last play of the series? He was getting hacked going down the lane the whole series, but that time it was huge obviously. After Paxson made the three, the Suns had one last possession and Grant "blocked" KJ... I'd have to watch it again to be sure, but I remember a foul. But most likely it was my blind support of the Suns getting in the way of reality.

And about Ceballos in the 93 finals, its always nice to have another veteran on the floor. I think it was that year (or it was around then anyway) CC lead the league in FG% (mostly because half his "shots" were dunks). He did give Pippen fits for whatever reason, and I think he could've helped.

I agree Ced plus Dumas would be better, but not instead of Dumas. 57% FG's by Dumas against the likes of Pippen and Jordan was truly amazing, though feeds from KJ helped. I do not recall the last play, cause I was pissed at Ainge for leaving Paxon along at the 3pt line to double Grant, who was worthless in the low post on 'O' because Charles wore his but down in this series.
KJ was hacked and grabbed so many times by Pippen and Jordan I was livid. Those guys could have been fouled out several times in the series. KJ was pissed, and stated it in a major way, as I recall. And KJ was not a noted whiner.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I do remember Bayard Forrest . . . and how he could have actually brought us a Championship many years ago.


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IMO, not a chance, even if both his brothers reffed that series. If it weren't for a 40 game stretch of Dale Schlueter, Bayard Forrest would walk away with the worst Suns big man award of all time. The guy made Luk look athletic. Even if we'd have just had someone like Jeff Cook I might agree with your point; as it was, we had no choice but to go small.

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Lurker Steve

 

[Treesquid PhD]

I remember my first Suns game at the AWA was Feb 1992 Suns v Magic NBC game and me and my buddy made a poster Richards Rafters, then Shaq tore down the hoop.