Who will the Suns draft at #13?

[slinslin]

I don't worry about Marshalls shooting, he is like a young Jason Kidd in that regard I guess. What I rather worry about is his lack of quickness/speed.

I think he would do well on a team where he has scorers around him and can be a ball distributor role player. The Suns are not that kind of team. Marshall would have a ton of pressure to create all the offense while teams would play off of him and dare him to shoot.

 

[leclerc]

Now thats a deal i might be willing to make. Ariza/#10 for TPE.

PJII @ #10 and Rivers @ #13

Wow, for once we actually agree on something.

Yes, this is the kind of thing the Suns should do with their cap space. Take on players on bad deals to acquire good draft picks and stockpile youth.

And by the time the team is ready to do anything competitive again Oakafor and Ariza will have become expiring contracts than can be moved for productive parts.

And I agree on the following posts. I wouldnt take Crawford for free. The dude sucks.

Too bad the fans are more insightful than the ownership. If this happens I'll celebrate and have a stupid grin on my face all summer.

 

[DWKB]

Morris will be a productive NBA player, just not in a system that encourages him to play the majority of the time outside of 12 ft.

UNC players are soft, as are Baylor players. I would stay away from them.

 

[slinslin]

If we had #10 and #13 I'd try to pick up either Marshall and Rivers or Lillard and Rivers I guess.
Although I might love Royce White enough to pick Rivers at #10 and White at #13.

 

[WildBB]

We have a sad history of bringing in guys to be enforcers and the turn out to be less than stellar once the put on the Suns uniform.

Truck Robinson, Armon Gilliam, Maurice Lucas, Xavier McDaniel, AC Green, Wayman Tisdale,

I could go on.

Our only true enforcer was Barkley. And he led the team to it's only Finals.

There's something to it. You need at least one BA in your lineup. Maybe two.

Stop drafting no D presence type players. You have to clean out misses or your done.

Wes Unseld where are you?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Our only true enforcer was Barkley. And he led the team to it's only Finals.

There's something to it. You need at least one BA in your lineup. Maybe two.

Stop drafting no D presence type players. You have to clean out misses or your done.

Wes Unseld where are you?

I've never thought of Barkley as an enforcer. He was physical on offense and it showed up occasionally on defense but all in all he was a lackluster defender. He was prone to throw a cheap shot every now and then but I think there's more to the idea of "enforcer" than just the rare elbow to the head.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I've never thought of Barkley as an enforcer. He was physical on offense and it showed up occasionally on defense but all in all he was a lackluster defender. He was prone to throw a cheap shot every now and then but I think there's more to the idea of "enforcer" than just the rare elbow to the head.

Steve

I agree, I never considered Barkley as an enforcer.

IMO, with the rules tightening around fighting, flagrant fouls and leaving the bench, the NBA has turned from the era of an enforcer into the era of cheap shot artists.

 

[WildBB]

I've never thought of Barkley as an enforcer. He was physical on offense and it showed up occasionally on defense but all in all he was a lackluster defender. He was prone to throw a cheap shot every now and then but I think there's more to the idea of "enforcer" than just the rare elbow to the head.

Steve

I think of enforcer as a physical presence. I think of Barkley definately that way. He was a superb rebounder for a 6'5" PF.
Unseld was 6'8" as a center and was uncanny at rebounding and the quick outlet. He rarely let anyone around him for an offensive rebound. We need someone not afraid to throw his body around like that in a smart way.
If I was to pick the main flaw of the team it would be consistent D- rebounding. We need someone to clean the glass night in-out preferably at the #4 as we have an opening there. Someone who can pass very well also.

That'll be hard to find somewhat, I don't thinK Morris fits the bill yet. He's like a tall SF to me. As is Frye. With Dudley we have a redundancy at that position, imo.

 

[BC867]

Our only true enforcer was Barkley.

I suggest that the best enforcer the Suns ever had was Mo Lucas. But he, as so many Suns Power Forwards during the Alvan Adams decade, was the de facto Center as Adams played 18 feet from the basket on offense and was supposed to defend Centers while he weighed 212 lbs., with arms as skinny as mine.

Lucas at Center was out of position.

Ironically, the only time the Suns tradition of our Power Forward covering Center could have worked was when we got Rick Robey. It actually meant that a legitimate Center was covering the post for us. If you can call the third string Center on the Celtics (for whom we gave away Dennis Johnson) a legitimate Center.

James Edwards was mentioned earlier but despite having the size, he played over 23 feet from the basket half of the time.

Truck Robinson was mentioned earlier, as well. He was hardly an enforcer at 6'7". But he played alongside Center Rich Kelley, a legitimate Center, who had more rebounds per minute than RPG leader Truck Robinson.

When it comes to manning the Center position, the Suns have been dysfunctional ever since our first Center Neal Walk left.

 

[elindholm]

the NBA has turned from the era of an enforcer into the era of cheap shot artists.

And flopping. Skilled flopping is a huge part of the game now. You really can't be competitive without it.

 

[Mainstreet]

And flopping. Skilled flopping is a huge part of the game now. You really can't be competitive without it.

Jared Dudley agrees with you, that it is important for the future of the NBA to fix the issue of flopping and he says the Commissioner feels likewise. The link for the Jared Dudley interview at ESPN radio is below.

See Jared's comments about flopping at about the 7:00 minute mark. I got the link for the interview from sunsfan88 on a different thread.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8038357

 

[Joe Mama]

Jared Dudley agrees with you, that it is important for the future of the NBA to fix the issue of flopping and he says the Commissioner feels likewise. The link for the Jared Dudley interview at ESPN radio is below.

See Jared's comments about flopping at about the 7:00 minute mark. I got the link for the interview from sunsfan88 on a different thread.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8038357

flopping and charges. Just get rid of charging altogether. Jumping in front of somebody isn't defense and it sucks for the game. Call an offensive foul if the offensive player just rams right through a defensive player or drops his shoulder into or whatever. Don't reward defenders for jumping in front of offensive players. Of course this will officially make the Phoenix Suns the worst defensive team in the NBA.

Joe

 

[ASUCHRIS]

flopping and charges. Just get rid of charging altogether. Jumping in front of somebody isn't defense and it sucks for the game. Call an offensive foul if the offensive player just rams right through a defensive player or drops his shoulder into or whatever. Don't reward defenders for jumping in front of offensive players. Of course this will officially make the Phoenix Suns the worst defensive team in the NBA.

Joe

Totally agree, and outside of organized games, nobody would even consider it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Totally agree, and outside of organized games, nobody would even consider it.

I would offer the counter, have you watched any AAU games recently? Almost nobody takes charges in AAU, and the games are ridiculous. And all these kids who get to the NBA today with no concept of how to play defense or how to win games are largely the product of the AAU mentality of showcase yourself, who cares if you lose it's just an AAU game.

I hate flops as much as anybody but if you take away setting up correctly to take a charge, it's MUCH harder to actually play defense. There just aren't that many Anthony Davis type kids out there to protect the rim, if players can drive with no fear of defenders taking a charge, it'll be like glorified AAU ball IMHO.

What I want to see is the NBA take back the game a bit. The palming and carrying is out of hand, travelling is rampant, for all the Euro step praise out there the fact is half the guys who do it walk everytime they do it. Stop rewarding flops, stop rewarding offensive players who drop the ball down and then intentionally rip up into the defender who's not left his feet and just has his hands up(as taught). There's too much playing to the refs instead of playing the game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

flopping and charges. Just get rid of charging altogether. Jumping in front of somebody isn't defense and it sucks for the game. Call an offensive foul if the offensive player just rams right through a defensive player or drops his shoulder into or whatever. Don't reward defenders for jumping in front of offensive players. Of course this will officially make the Phoenix Suns the worst defensive team in the NBA.

Joe

Really? IMO, it wouldn't change our defensive ranking in any way. We're pretty much in the middle of the pack in jumping in the path of the offensive player. Take Nash out of the equation and we're probably dead last at this technique. Every team does this and it's just one of many things that I hate about the pro game (and the college game, which is probably even worse these days).

To me, defense is all about establishing position and the refs have apparently stopped seeing it that way. AFAIC, most of the problems in the NBA could be solved by REQUIRING refs to call the game according to the rules. Most of the dumb rules the NBA has adopted have been in response to refs no longer making the right call (the block/charge rules involving the stupid restricted zone for example).

Instruct the refs to call the game by the rules and hold them accountable when they fail to do their job. I'm not talking about punishing them for the occasional bad call, they have to have room to make errors. Secondly, establish a review process and go after the organization not the player every time a player clearly "fakes it" in an effort to influence the ref to make the wrong call. You start fining the clubs millions of dollars and the Luis Scola's of the world will have to learn how to play basketball a different way.

Steve

 

[Bufalay]

If the NBA were to get rid of charges how would it be possible to stop someone from getting to the basket? As soon as the offensive player starts running fast it would be illegal to get in his way?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I would offer the counter, have you watched any AAU games recently? Almost nobody takes charges in AAU, and the games are ridiculous. And all these kids who get to the NBA today with no concept of how to play defense or how to win games are largely the product of the AAU mentality of showcase yourself, who cares if you lose it's just an AAU game.

Nope, don't watch AAU ball, but I don't see a reduction in charges leading to the NBA being a layup line either. AAU ball from what I read isn't just bad defense, it's completely indifferent.

As Joe said, "Call an offensive foul if the offensive player just rams right through a defensive player or drops his shoulder into or whatever. Don't reward defenders for jumping in front of offensive players."

What I want to see is the NBA take back the game a bit. The palming and carrying is out of hand, travelling is rampant, for all the Euro step praise out there the fact is half the guys who do it walk everytime they do it. Stop rewarding flops, stop rewarding offensive players who drop the ball down and then intentionally rip up into the defender who's not left his feet and just has his hands up(as taught). There's too much playing to the refs instead of playing the game.

Agree with all this.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the NBA were to get rid of charges how would it be possible to stop someone from getting to the basket? As soon as the offensive player starts running fast it would be illegal to get in his way?

Well, you can't really get away without some kind of charge call. But, it used to be that you had to establish position before the offensive player committed to that spot and that apparently fell by the wayside years ago. Now, they often allow them to take the position away from the offense even when the offensive player is in the air on his way to that spot. It's absurd. If you're a secondary defender you should always be required to fully own the spot and remain stationary prior to the offensive player beginning his move.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Call an offensive foul if the offensive player just rams right through a defensive player or drops his shoulder into or whatever. Don't reward defenders for jumping in front of offensive players.

So for how long does the defensive player have to be there for it to be considered "ramming right through"? One full second? Longer? There are problems with enforcing the current rule, but the rule itself isn't poorly conceived. The defender has as much right to the spot as the offensive player does, and whoever gets there first owns the space.

 

[Joe Mama]

Well, you can't really get away without some kind of charge call. But, it used to be that you had to establish position before the offensive player committed to that spot and that apparently fell by the wayside years ago. Now, they often allow them to take the position away from the offense even when the offensive player is in the air on his way to that spot. It's absurd. If you're a secondary defender you should always be required to fully own the spot and remain stationary prior to the offensive player beginning his move.

Steve

I agree with all of this except it's even worse than that. I'd be willing to bet that if they went back and reviewed all of the charging calls in the playoffs over 50% of the time a defensive player NEVER established position. My memory is crap, or I could tell you which Miami Heat player picked up a charge in the second quarter when he was still moving into the Oklahoma City player when they made contact with each other. That's definitely a two point and possible three point swing plus the Oklahoma City guy gets a personal foul.

If they don't get rid of it altogether (my preference) they definitely need to increase dramatically the time offensive player has to be established to get a charge. Maybe the referees need to always double-team a charging call. The referee on the baseline watches the feet and the referee on the perimeter makes sure the guy is actually established. I think that's asking too much of the outside referee though. Just get rid of it altogether. It's not defense, and it would open up the game big time. How do you stop the guy from getting to the basket? Make a play on the damn basketball.

Joe

 

[Folster]

I agree with all of this except it's even worse than that. I'd be willing to bet that if they went back and reviewed all of the charging calls in the playoffs over 50% of the time a defensive player NEVER established position. My memory is crap, or I could tell you which Miami Heat player picked up a charge in the second quarter when he was still moving into the Oklahoma City player when they made contact with each other. That's definitely a two point and possible three point swing plus the Oklahoma City guy gets a personal foul.

If they don't get rid of it altogether (my preference) they definitely need to increase dramatically the time offensive player has to be established to get a charge. Maybe the referees need to always double-team a charging call. The referee on the baseline watches the feet and the referee on the perimeter makes sure the guy is actually established. I think that's asking too much of the outside referee though. Just get rid of it altogether. It's not defense, and it would open up the game big time. How do you stop the guy from getting to the basket? Make a play on the damn basketball.

Joe

There is nothing wrong with a legitimate charge call. The problem is that 80% of them are either flops or the defensive player never established position in the first place. The only way to correct the problem is to stop rewarding the flopping player. A no-call leaves the defense with a player on the floor. The problem is that most fans are hypocritical in that they bemoan the charge call when it goes against them, but praise it when it goes their way or plead for the call when their player flops.

Remember this play?


Nash tried taking a charge on Kobe in the playoffs. Kobe jumped so high that his shins hit Nash's shoulder. Nash was called for a foul, and every Suns fans complained it was a block. It should have been a no-call. It sucked that Kobe dunked on Nash, but I'd much rather see a player make an athletic offensive play like that than watch a defensive player fall on the floor and get bailed out. You'd think the NBA would want the same. The charge call kills so many athletic plays around the rim.

I blame soccer and the Europeans (namely Vlade Divac) for bringing that crap over to the States. Because it's rewarded we have to watch Scola and Ginobli flopping around like fish, acting more than playing basketball.

The refs need to stop rewarding players that fall on the ground. If they didn't clearly see the action that caused the fall, it should be a no-call. Players caught flopping on the court should be T'd up and fined afterward. Opposing teams should be able to submit egregious flopping and acting to a committee to review for fines/suspensions.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The refs need to stop rewarding players that fall on the ground. If they didn't clearly see the action that caused the fall, it should be a no-call. Players caught flopping on the court should be T'd up and fined afterward. Opposing teams should be able to submit egregious flopping and acting to a committee to review for fines/suspensions.

I'm not so sure. I don't think they can do their job without doing a little guesswork out there and that's what makes the acting job so effective. As I've said before, I think it should be dealt with after the fact. Let the refs do the best they can to interpret the plays and than submit each game for review. Anytime it's evident that a player intentionally influenced the ref to make the wrong call, hit that team with a huge fine. Trust me, it won't go on for long if the franchise is having to shell out millions of dollars for this crap. If you go after the player you'll have to deal with the Union and "obvious" or "apparent" won't end up being enough to nail them like they should be nailed.

Steve

 

[Joe Mama]

I blame soccer and the Europeans (namely Vlade Divac) for bringing that crap over to the States. Because it's rewarded we have to watch Scola and Ginobli flopping around like fish, acting more than playing basketball.

The refs need to stop rewarding players that fall on the ground. If they didn't clearly see the action that caused the fall, it should be a no-call. Players caught flopping on the court should be T'd up and fined afterward. Opposing teams should be able to submit egregious flopping and acting to a committee to review for fines/suspensions.

okay, I have some real problems with this. First of all, I don't blame Divac one bit for his "flopping". He shouldn't have had to flop. How else are you supposed to effectively guard somebody who is bigger and stronger than you and just keeps running into you until they are a few feet from the basket or you get called for a foul? Sure he exaggerated the contact a lot of time, but more often than not it was the only way to get the referees to blow the damn whistle.

The only guys that really, really piss me off with the flopping are Manu, Scola, and Reggie Evans who flop regularly when there isn't even any contact. I think the only way to really stop flopping this for the referees to watch video and recognize who the worst offenders are. Then they have to be very disciplined about calling fouls "drawn" by those players. I don't really see how you can make flopping a technical porn discipline people who flop outside of what I just mentioned.

I just think charging, palming, and the overall inconsistency in the way fouls are called from game to game and player to player are much bigger problems. I don't include traveling because while everybody complains about traveling IMO they are much better about calling it now than they were 10-20-30 years ago. I mean Michael Jordan traveled without getting called for it more than the top three players today combined. I also can't tell you how many times I've read or heard people complain about traveling when it was not a travel.

Joe

 

[Errntknght]

I've held the opinion for years that a defender be required to make a play on the ball in order to get a charge call. Then you don't have concern yourself about where the offensive player was in his action - if the defender is in front of him long enough to be able to jump up and contest the shot, then he was there in time. It simplifies the whole question and its visual - and happening right where the ref should be looking. Jumping in front of a driving offensive player is always a foul if you don't contest the shot. They should shrink the charge circle about in half so the defense gets a little break to compensate.

The other thing that is hurting the game is not calling moving picks according to the rules... there are hardly any picks but moving picks now.

 

[Joe Mama]

The other thing that is hurting the game is not calling moving picks according to the rules... there are hardly any picks but moving picks now.

I wish just posting what I think are the biggest officiating problems in another thread, and I knew I was forgetting something. I swear two thirds of the screens and picks in the NBA today are illegal. They need to really clean that up. It's not just KG and Perkins. It's just about everybody. Most of the time at least it's the ball handler or shooters fault because they either don't wait for the screener should be set or they don't run a tight route around the screen. The part that's most frustrating to me about this is that for the most part it's an easy call. It's obvious.

1. Get rid of charges or at the very least make sure the defender is really set him set long enough so it's reasonable to expect that the offensive player could have avoided the contact.

2. Start calling palming a lot more. It's another one that's an easy call. It's obvious.

3. Illegal picks/screens.

4. Get more consistent.

And that ladies and gentlemen is how you hijack a couple threads with one topic.

Joe Mama