Why Beasley was the #2 pick

[Phrazbit]

1 - Nash was a URFA so that is moot/In 1/2 a year Shumpert is someone you should build around?

I said if Nash was willing to go there (NY). Neither NY or LA was able to sign him outright. Shumpert is a young player on a rookie deal who has shown some solid skills. He is not some superstar but he is a nice asset.

2 - Why would anyone want to come play for a team that will not give a long term deal? (What's a long term deal?)

Nothing over 2 years unless he is a guy you think can start for a long time (which is why I am not disgusted by Dragic's contract), and there are going to be a lot of guys who wont get contracts for more than 1 or 2 years.

3 - What are you going to do about lost revenue and loss of advertising partners?

I dont think the difference in revenue between a 30 win team and a 20 win team is something to sweat. Fans are not going to be packing into watch either squad. And its WAY worse for attendance to have a team be bad for along time because of bad, long contracts than it would be to build a young team with cap flexibility and moveable assets.

4- Your not going to get anyone to sign with a team, that is not competative unless you are going to overpay, but since that is out of the question. I guess we will just keep drafting players.

What is the current constructed team going to compete for?! Finish 10th in the west? Why overpay for bad players when, for the time being, the team is not a playoff squad?

5- Why would Gentry want to coach a team of rookies? How will that help him get his next contract?

Gentry I am sure just wants to coach. He wouldnt need to worry about his next contract if the Suns JUST extended him. Right now he is a lame duck coach who is about to get a bad roster. I bet if they gave him an extension he would sign it but the current "plan" appears to be to lay part of the blame for the upcoming failed season on Gentry and fire him.

 

[SunsTzu]

It's pointless to say that someone is "overpaid" without articulating what the standards are.

Well it depends on the team. As a rebuilding team I think anyone who isn't part of the long term foundation and cannot be easily shed is overpaid. Of the guys not on rookie deals I think Gortat and Dudley are the only guys that can be moved for straight cap space and/or assets. Where guys like Childress, Frye and Warrick would require the Suns to give assets just to have another team take them.

Darrell Arthur just signed a 3 year 9mil deal. All else being equal I like Arthur better than Frye and Beasley, even more so at their respective contracts.

 

[SweetD]

1 - Nash was a URFA so that is moot/In 1/2 a year Shumpert is someone you should build around?

I said if Nash was willing to go there (NY). Neither NY or LA was able to sign him outright. Shumpert is a young player on a rookie deal who has shown some solid skills. He is not some superstar but he is a nice asset.

2 - Why would anyone want to come play for a team that will not give a long term deal? (What's a long term deal?)

Nothing over 2 years unless he is a guy you think can start for a long time (which is why I am not disgusted by Dragic's contract), and there are going to be a lot of guys who wont get contracts for more than 1 or 2 years.

3 - What are you going to do about lost revenue and loss of advertising partners?

I dont think the difference in revenue between a 30 win team and a 20 win team is something to sweat. Fans are not going to be packing into watch either squad. And its WAY worse for attendance to have a team be bad for along time because of bad, long contracts than it would be to build a young team with cap flexibility and moveable assets.

4- Your not going to get anyone to sign with a team, that is not competative unless you are going to overpay, but since that is out of the question. I guess we will just keep drafting players.

What is the current constructed team going to compete for?! Finish 10th in the west? Why overpay for bad players when, for the time being, the team is not a playoff squad?

5- Why would Gentry want to coach a team of rookies? How will that help him get his next contract?

Gentry I am sure just wants to coach. He wouldnt need to worry about his next contract if the Suns JUST extended him. Right now he is a lame duck coach who is about to get a bad roster. I bet if they gave him an extension he would sign it but the current "plan" appears to be to lay part of the blame for the upcoming failed season on Gentry and fire him.

The min Salary cap for a team is $49Million, how are you going to put a team together with all rookie deals and vet min deals, plus not overpay?

I would look into your lost revenue a little bit more. There is a big differance between 30-20 wins and a team that is at least trying to make the playoffs vs tanking it for the #1 Pick.

Good thing you are racking up the picks since the % on draft picks actualy making it is not in your favor.

 

[Phrazbit]

Well it depends on the team. As a rebuilding team I think anyone who isn't part of the long term foundation and cannot be easily shed is overpaid. Of the guys not on rookie deals I think Gortat and Dudley are the only guys that can be moved for straight cap space and/or assets. Where guys like Childress, Frye and Warrick would require the Suns to give assets just to have another team take them.

Darrell Arthur just signed a 3 year 9mil deal. All else being equal I like Arthur better than Frye and Beasley, even more so at their respective contracts.

Exactly. Arthur, even on his new deal is an asset thats movable. Frye, Childress, Warrick, those were contracts that from the moment were signed became negative trade chips.

A team in our position should not be picking up players who wouldnt count as assets in any kind of negotiation. We need to keep as many doors open as possible. Not tying up cap space, playing time and roster spots in players no one else would want.

 

[Phrazbit]

The min Salary cap for a team is $49Million, how are you going to put a team together with all rookie deals and vet min deals, plus not overpay?

I would look into your lost revenue a little bit more. There is a big differance between 30-20 wins and a team that is at least trying to make the playoffs vs tanking it for the #1 Pick.

Good thing you are racking up the picks since the % on draft picks actualy making it is not in your favor.

So instead we are signing picks that have already failed to multi-year contracts...

Brilliant.

You might have to overpay some one year deals to bring in guys who would rather have 2-3 year contracts and to get to the min cap, but I'd rather overpay for one year than 4 or 5.

 

[SweetD]

Exactly. Arthur, even on his new deal is an asset thats movable. Frye, Childress, Warrick, those were contracts that from the moment were signed became negative trade chips.

A team in our position should not be picking up players who wouldnt count as assets in any kind of negotiation. We need to keep as many doors open as possible. Not tying up cap space, playing time and roster spots in players no one else would want.

Don't you think if anyone wanted Arthur he would have got more than 3Million a year???? But I guess if he can't play they can just use the injury exception for his cap space.

Today, seven months after Arthur suffered his second severe injury in four NBA seasons, the former Kansas standout is the source of better news for the Grizzlies. Arthur, recovering from surgery to repair a torn right Achilles suffered last December, is in town to sign a three-year contract worth more than $9 million

 

[SweetD]

So instead we are signing picks that have already failed to multi-year contracts...

Brilliant.

You might have to overpay some one year deals to bring in guys who would rather have 2-3 year contracts and to get to the min cap, but I'd rather overpay for one year than 4 or 5.

Picks that have failed? The only pick that failed and we signed to long term deals was Warrick.

 

[Phrazbit]

Picks that have failed? The only pick that failed and we signed to long term deals was Warrick.

Michael Beasley...

 

[Evil Ash]

So instead we are signing picks that have already failed to multi-year contracts...

Brilliant.

You might have to overpay some one year deals to bring in guys who would rather have 2-3 year contracts and to get to the min cap, but I'd rather overpay for one year than 4 or 5.

We are signing guys to short multi-year deals with the exception of Gordon. Remember in the NBA the final year of a deal (no matter how awful) become tradeable assets. So the Suns are basically on the hook for Beasley for 2 years at that point he's tradeable.

We are rebuilding but rebuilding teams have to take risks on occassion. If Beasley doesn't work out, we likely aren't missing anything because of it. He either works out or he doesn't. Rebuilding through the draft is just as risky as building through FA.

 

[SunsTzu]

You might have to overpay some one year deals to bring in guys who would rather have 2-3 year contracts and to get to the min cap, but I'd rather overpay for one year than 4 or 5.

They don't even need to meet the salary floor until the end of next season, teams in the past have waited to absorb expiring deals to reach the floor(Jazz needed to add a player like Googs back when he as traded, the Suns were nice enough to include 2 1st round picks anyway).

 

[SweetD]

Michael Beasley...

Beasley has proven he can play in this league and 3 years 6Million is reasonable.

 

[Chaplin]

Michael Beasley...

What is your gauge on a good player? Looking at his career stats after only 4 years, they aren't terrible. They aren't superstar, which is what you apparently want on a multi-year 6 million a year deal. 3 years isn't even that long of a deal.

Should a #2 pick SF always average 22 and 10? That would be nice, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case in NBA history.

 

[SunsTzu]

We are signing guys to short multi-year deals with the exception of Gordon. Remember in the NBA the final year of a deal (no matter how awful) become tradeable assets.

Assets like KT? I'll be interested to see what teams view Warrick as an asset. The only teams that consider expiring deals are teams sending back worse deals.

Cap room is far better than expiring deals for players you don't want and give you much more flexibility.

 

[Phrazbit]

Beasley has proven he can play in this league and 3 years 6Million is reasonable.

Not to rehash everything... but he has not proven much besides he can put up the most shots on a team that wins 17 games. And its hard to claim a #2 overall pick was NOT a failure when he was traded for some 2nd rounders THEN shopped without finding buys and eventually let walk in free agency because his team didnt give him a qualifying offer.

Beasley falls into the category of a contract we JUST signed and would not be able to move. Minnesota tried to give him away last year on a one year deal and couldnt pull it off. To think he is an asset on a longer contract is ignorance.

 

[Phrazbit]

What is your gauge on a good player? Looking at his career stats after only 4 years, they aren't terrible. They aren't superstar, which is what you apparently want on a multi-year 6 million a year deal. 3 years isn't even that long of a deal.

Should a #2 pick SF always average 22 and 10? That would be nice, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case in NBA history.

We already beat this subject into the ground. I will go through it again if we must but Beasley has NOT been good. If you just want to look at bis base scoring averages they dont look terrible. But when you look at many possessions he takes up to get his middling scoring stats, and then take into account that he stinks at everything else... Michael Beasley is a bad basketball player.

 

[Chaplin]

Not to rehash everything... but he has not proven much besides he can put up the most shots on a team that wins 17 games. And its hard to claim a #2 overall pick was NOT a failure when he was traded for some 2nd rounders THEN shopped without finding buys and eventually let walk in free agency because his team didnt give him a qualifying offer.

Beasley falls into the category of a contract we JUST signed and would not be able to move. Minnesota tried to give him away last year on a one year deal and couldnt pull it off. To think he is an asset on a longer contract is ignorance.

Where are you getting all this insider information? You tend to post a bunch of rumors that you never provide links for. Your argument would be much stronger with some actual professional proof for your assumptions -- and not just from fan blogs.

 

[Chaplin]

We already beat this subject into the ground. I will go through it again if we must but Beasley has NOT been good. If you just want to look at bis base scoring averages they dont look terrible. But when you look at many possessions he takes up to get his middling scoring stats, and then take into account that he stinks at everything else... Michael Beasley is a bad basketball player.

He has decent rebounding numbers... Field Goal % is low, but only about 44%. Can't shoot the 3 that well, but you don't really want him to. He got only 23 minutes per game last year and scored in double figures.

And again, where are your links? Now you're bringing up possession stats. And no, you can't use slinslin as your stat source.

 

[Evil Ash]

Where are you getting all this insider information? You tend to post a bunch of rumors that you never provide links for. Your argument would be much stronger with some actual professional proof for your assumptions -- and not just from fan blogs.

Welcome to arguing with Phrazbit. He did the same thing when the Cards traded for Kolb last year. He typically makes things up as they go along to fit his point

 

[SweetD]

Assets like KT? I'll be interested to see what teams view Warrick as an asset. The only teams that consider expiring deals are teams sending back worse deals.

Cap room is far better than expiring deals for players you don't want and give you much more flexibility.

Not sure if you noticed or not but players are setting the grounds on where they want to go. If a team has cap space it will only be used to be a 3rd team to take back crap and get draft picks to make it work.

 

[SweetD]

We already beat this subject into the ground. I will go through it again if we must but Beasley has NOT been good. If you just want to look at bis base scoring averages they dont look terrible. But when you look at many possessions he takes up to get his middling scoring stats, and then take into account that he stinks at everything else... Michael Beasley is a bad basketball player.

So who is "good" that you can obtain for $6million 3 years?

 

[Evil Ash]

Assets like KT? I'll be interested to see what teams view Warrick as an asset. The only teams that consider expiring deals are teams sending back worse deals.

or teams that are doing sign and trade deals. Who gives up the worse deal is a matter of how the players perform.

Teams rarely stay under the cap for long periods of time so sign and trades become one of the few ways that those teams can improve.

The trade of KT was a mistake and a panic move.

 

[Phrazbit]

He has decent rebounding numbers... Field Goal % is low, but only about 44%. Can't shoot the 3 that well, but you don't really want him to. He got only 23 minutes per game last year and scored in double figures.

And again, where are your links? Now you're bringing up possession stats. And no, you can't use slinslin as your stat source.

Look at his stats! His efficenicy is awful, 13.11, thats below even Frye! He his points per shot is terrible. He does not get to the line, he is a face up scorer who does not go at the rim. Considering he has played most of his minutes at PF his rebounding numbers are awful, his assist to turnover ratio is awful. Outside his PPG, his stats are horrific, and you cant find ANYONE who would claim his defense is anything but trash.

As for him the contract and trade stuff... it was common knowledge that the Wolves were trying to trade Beasley last year. If you didnt keep up with it type in "Michael Beasley trade rumor" and read for yourself. And they obviously didnt extend him a qualifying offer, he was NOT a restricted free agent, and him being traded from Miami to Minny for 2nd rounders is a matter of record.

Welcome to arguing with Phrazbit. He did the same thing when the Cards traded for Kolb last year. He typically makes things up as they go along to fit his point

Really? Show me where I made something up. And Kolb worked out greeeeat, didnt he?

 

[SunsTzu]

Not sure if you noticed or not but players are setting the grounds on where they want to go. If a team has cap space it will only be used to be a 3rd team to take back crap and get draft picks to make it work.

Not sure if you noticed or not but Cleveland landed the #1 pick because they had the space and willingness to take on Baron Davis. Or KT netting the Sonics/Thunder 3 firsts. You need cap space and or a TE to make those kinds of moves.

 

[Phrazbit]

So who is "good" that you can obtain for $6million 3 years?

You dont get it... I dont want the Suns to load up on multi-year deals just to fill the roster. And one guy getting a bad contract does not justify giving someone else a stupid contract.

Building through free agency is a bad... bad... idea. The only time I can think of that it has EVER worked was Miami, and if the Suns had the reigning MVP trying to get on their team I would be totally fine with it. If you have a great roster in place you can try to use free agency to put yourself over the top but going from the ground up with free agent signings creates a bad, overpaid, immovable roster.

 

[Phrazbit]

Not sure if you noticed or not but Cleveland landed the #1 pick because they had the space and willingness to take on Baron Davis. Or KT netting the Sonics/Thunder 3 firsts. You need cap space and or a TE to make those kinds of moves.

Yup.