Why did we trade for J-Rich?

[Chaplin]

False.

You need proof he's great with his back to the basket? Why did we go to him for nearly all of game 5 against the Spurs? They didn't have anyone on the team that could guard him. There wasn't anyone happier we got rid of him than Spurs fans. I could get the thread from Spurstalk if you want.

What about his great back down to win game 1 of the WCF back in 06?

How about the fact that we just watch him tear up Amare a couple of weeks ago?

Diaw has an incredible IQ and great hesitation. He's also a really capable defender.

You have just pointed out 3 games. 3! Out of how many? 150? If he was so great, why didn't he do that EVERY GAME? Why doesn't he do it now?

Given playing time, even the worst player will look great in 3 out of 150 appearances. Matt Barnes is a case in point.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, I don't agree that a change is needed if there's a good reason why Bell was struggling. If indeed he was. I remember one time you told me that OJ Mayo dropped 30+ points on Raja. As it turned out, almost half of those points came in the few minutes that Raja was out of the game. I've argued over and over with you that defensive per is an unreliable stat. I'd rather not get into that again. Any number of different factors could account for a change in defensive PER, like I've said to you in the past. One of which is whether they defend the same players or not. The last head to head match up that JRich won was against Philly's Willie Green and Louis Williams. Did JRich defend Green and Williams? I know Bell wouldn't have been on them. Does JRich being able to defend Green and Williams well mean he's a better defender than Raja?

I haven't seen any sign that we were as a whole a better defensive team. But what I have seen is that we played as a whole worse post trade with than we played pre trade.

If you remember I used several things. I used head to heads, Individual Opponent Per, and I sited several match ups not just the Mayo one (by the way Raja sat down because of the horrible job in that game and didn't account for other guys that scored on Raja). Then if you look at the Per by position at the time, there is ZERO doubt we could improve at that position when it was the worst on the team. It's absolutely true (which I acknowledged) that any single one of those stats is unreliable alone. However, when you look at all of them together it does paint a picture. Now look with your own eyes. You are in the vast minority of people that felt Raja was playing good defense. You can't simply point to mounds of mounting evidence and turn a blind eye and say none of it applies because no one stat is perfect.

Also, I have seen JRich cover just as many true SG as Raja ever did here. Of course there are going to be some match ups that Raja couldn't take. JRich has more size. Again, that's why you can't look at head to head alone.

My contention at the time of the trade was that Raja was playing like crap and that JRich was playing better so the trade needed to happen. Nothing more. Maybe Raja needed a change of scenery (dating back to last year). Whatever the reason Raja was declining 2 years running and wasn't going to get any better.

Having JRich or Raja Bell on this team would not change anything overall defensively for this team this year. Not when you have a PG leading the league in turnovers, a PF who is top 5 NBA in turnovers amungst forwards and a bench player in Barnes who accounts for another 50% of bench turnovers. Bell wouldn't change that.

My stance still has not changed. This team needs a complete overhaul to become a good defensive team. They needed to do more then the JRich trade and still have not. I thought shipping out a player who was not playing well on either side of the court and starting to bitch to the media was a good start. We just have not followed through. No matter how JRich on this team turns out or how bad this team gets...the trade still needed to happen. Period.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Diaw is a soft underperforming wuss who was stealing money from us. The fact that we landed JRich in return and only had to give up Bell along with it is an amazing feat.

Stop arguing about potential and theoretical ability, he doesnt deliver what he is capable of, period.

 

[JS22]

False.

You need proof he's great with his back to the basket? Why did we go to him for nearly all of game 5 against the Spurs? They didn't have anyone on the team that could guard him. There wasn't anyone happier we got rid of him than Spurs fans. I could get the thread from Spurstalk if you want.

What about his great back down to win game 1 of the WCF back in 06?

How about the fact that we just watch him tear up Amare a couple of weeks ago?

Diaw has an incredible IQ and great hesitation. He's also a really capable defender.

Apparently you skipped out on the 100+ games where Diaw was completely worthless on the court.

 

[Steel Sun]

Diaw apologists = holocaust deniers

 

[Ninjafish]

Can you post the location that you're receiving all these defensive statistics from? I'd be curious to know how you found out that half of Mayo's 30 points came when Raja wasn't guarding him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=281110021

This is what happened when Raja went out the game.

63-77 Leandro Barbosa enters the game for Raja Bell
1:47 63-78 Goran Dragic makes free throw 2 of 2
1:31 Kyle Lowry misses layup 63-78
1:31 Marc Gasol makes tip shot 65-78
1:31 Marc Gasol offensive rebound 65-78
1:15 O.J. Mayo shooting foul (Robin Lopez draws the foul) 65-78
1:15 65-79 Robin Lopez makes free throw 1 of 2
1:15 65-80 Robin Lopez makes free throw 2 of 2
1:00 Hakim Warrick misses 9-foot jumper 65-80
0:59 Marc Gasol offensive rebound 65-80
0:58 Boris Diaw blocks Marc Gasol's layup 65-80
0:56 65-80 Grant Hill defensive rebound
0:54 65-82 Leandro Barbosa makes layup (Grant Hill assists)
0:39 Marc Gasol makes 9-foot two point shot 67-82
0:27 67-82 Grant Hill misses 15-foot jumper
0:25 Quinton Ross defensive rebound 67-82
0:02 Quinton Ross makes 23-foot three point jumper (O.J. Mayo assists) 70-82
0:00 70-82 Grant Hill misses 36-foot three point jumper
0:00 End of the 3rd Quarter
0:00 70-82 Phoenix offensive rebound
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | All
4th Quarter Summary
TIME MEMPHIS SCORE PHOENIX
12:00 Start of the 4th Quarter
11:42 Marc Gasol misses 9-foot jumper 70-82
11:41 70-82 Grant Hill defensive rebound
11:19 Kyle Lowry shooting foul (Leandro Barbosa draws the foul) 70-82
11:19 70-83 Leandro Barbosa makes free throw 1 of 2
11:19 70-83 Leandro Barbosa misses free throw 2 of 2
11:18 Hakim Warrick defensive rebound 70-83
11:06 70-83 Leandro Barbosa personal foul (O.J. Mayo draws the foul)
11:00 O.J. Mayo makes 14-foot jumper 72-83
10:44 72-83 Robin Lopez bad pass (O.J. Mayo steals)
10:37 O.J. Mayo makes 25-foot three point jumper (Kyle Lowry assists) 75-83
10:21 75-85 Leandro Barbosa makes driving layup
10:11 75-85 Robin Lopez shooting foul (Hakim Warrick draws the foul)
10:11 Hakim Warrick makes free throw 1 of 2 76-85
10:11 Hakim Warrick makes free throw 2 of 2 77-85
10:02 Marc Gasol shooting foul (Leandro Barbosa draws the foul) 77-85
10:02 77-86 Leandro Barbosa makes free throw 1 of 2
10:02 Darko Milicic enters the game for Marc Gasol 77-86
10:02 77-87 Leandro Barbosa makes free throw 2 of 2
9:48 O.J. Mayo makes 10-foot jumper 79-87
9:48 79-87 Goran Dragic shooting foul (O.J. Mayo draws the foul)
9:48 O.J. Mayo makes free throw 1 of 1 80-87
9:34 80-87 Leandro Barbosa misses 15-foot jumper
9:33 Quinton Ross defensive rebound 80-87
9:15 Hakim Warrick misses 9-foot jumper 80-87
9:14 Quinton Ross offensive rebound 80-87
9:10 O.J. Mayo makes 26-foot three point jumper (Quinton Ross assists) 83-87
9:03 Phoenix full timeout
9:03 83-87 Shaquille O'Neal enters the game for Goran Dragic
9:03 83-87 Steve Nash enters the game for Robin Lopez
8:53 83-87 Boris Diaw bad pass
8:41 O.J. Mayo makes 19-foot jumper 85-87
8:23 85-87 Grant Hill bad pass (Quinton Ross steals)
8:08 Kyle Lowry misses 11-foot jumper 85-87
8:07 85-87 Leandro Barbosa defensive rebound
8:04 85-89 Leandro Barbosa makes 10-foot two point shot
8:04 Quinton Ross shooting foul (Leandro Barbosa draws the foul) 85-89
8:04 85-89 Raja Bell enters the game for Grant Hill

That's 13 points on 5-5 shooting. If we subtract that from his box score, then OJ shot 7 of 18 (and 1 of 6 from 3PT) for the rest of the game for 20 points. So Raja held him to 39% shooting. That's not great, but it's far from terrible. A lot of people condemned Raja for that game.

There's also still more of Mayo's points that are question marks, such as

2:36 35-36 Matt Barnes shooting foul (O.J. Mayo draws the foul)
2:36 O.J. Mayo makes free throw 1 of 3 36-36
2:36 O.J. Mayo makes free throw 2 of 3 37-36
2:36 O.J. Mayo makes free throw 3 of 3

3:13 96-97 Shaquille O'Neal personal foul (O.J. Mayo draws the foul)
3:13 O.J. Mayo makes free throw 1 of 2 97-97
3:13 O.J. Mayo makes free throw 2 of 2

Was that Raja's fault? It could have been, but who knows. It just further shows that judging defense from head to heads and individual opponent per is unreliable and silly. And that the only people who would use those stats to judge defense are those that, to be honest, have no clue what they're talking about.

As far as defense pre-trade vs. post-trade, the defense was bad in both instances.

Exactly. I agree. The defense was bad pre trade and it was just as bad post trade. To say otherwise would be ignorant. I don't blame Bell or JRich. I blame Porter.

 

[nowagimp]

Exactly. I agree. The defense was bad pre trade and it was just as bad post trade. To say otherwise would be ignorant. I don't blame Bell or JRich. I blame Porter.

Yep dont join the "trade everyone since they cant produce under porter" crowd, there wont be anyone left but shaq.

 

[Covert Rain]

Raja played 34 minutes that game to Barbosa's 22. OJ Scored 33 points.

So that means 20 points came on Raja's watch. 39% is not great defense and only a few % points below Mayo's average.

All that says is that Raja managed to make Mayo take some bad shots but still couldn't stop him whatsoever. Not a good rebuttle or proof of Raja's good defense whatsoever. That just means that Barbosa is a worse defender then Raja not that Raja played good defense.

PS. Raja got his butt sat down because he couldn't stay in front of Mayo. Not because he was holding Mayo to 39% shooting. There were tons of examples of bad play by Raja through the season.

Also, no game log is going to show you Raja missing defensive assignments, rotations or times Mayo got around Raja and ran into another player that forced Mayo to miss. By default your giving credit to Raja for those instances as well. I guarantee that holding Mayo to 39% was impacted by other players palying help defense. Raja has needed alot of it over the past 2 seasons.

 

[Ninjafish]

OJ scored 33 points. And I said it wasn't great.

 

[elindholm]

Seriously, look at last nights team. What would you rather add? J-Rich or Raja and Diaw?

But that was against a bad team. The key difference between Richardson and Barbosa is that Richardson is (at least potentially) a potent weapon even against good defense. I agree he hasn't really shown that yet, but there's time. Barbosa has a well established track record of disappearing when the going gets tough.

 

[Covert Rain]

OJ scored 33 points. And I said it wasn't great.

Your right. Fixed my post.

So, how is this a rebuttle? First off this is one game. I bet you I can find a game log that makes him look even worse. Also, You claim head to head is no indication. Well using a game log has bigger holes as pointed out. All that shows is that Raja played better defense then Barbosa. Not that Raja played good defense because he didn't. Which was the point. If anything you reinforced the point but in a different way.

You can't just cherry pick one stat at a time poke holes and say it's no inidication. Especially, when there is more then one stat that points to the same problem. It's several factors not just one stat. It's all of that put together with what people see.

Honestly....I am not sure if it's lack of knowledge or you just have blinders on when it comes to Raja.

It would have been a bad trade if Raja was playing great defense. He was not. It would have been a bad trade if Boris was a force coming off the bench. He was not. All we did is traded 2 bad performing players on this team for a guy who was playing great for his team. How the trade ultimately turns out doesn't matter because we were not getting performance out of the guys that were here. It's unreal a couple of you guys just don't get it.

Worse case scenario all we did is make a push trade. I think the Suns still come out ahead because we have a guy that has the potential to put up huge numbers in JRich should the Suns actually use him right. Worse case scenario we interjected some athleticism in the position with better scoring potential.

Neither Raja, Diaw or JRich are going to impact the underlying problems with thist team defensively. So, how this can be viewed as bad is amazing.

 

[elindholm]

Yep dont join the "trade everyone since they cant produce under porter" crowd, there wont be anyone left but shaq.

I don't know where you people come from. Diaw was worthless under D'Antoni at least 90% of the last two years as well. Yes, he played well in isolated games and against the Spurs, because he was motivated. I don't think anyone is denying that he's more talented than Richardson. But, since he almost never uses that talent, he's really not very valuable.

You know who else is very talented? Tim Thomas. How come more people weren't crying when the Suns sent him packing?

 

[TJ]

The arguments against the trade are utterly baseless. You are sad to see an overpaid, underachieving fatty shipped out along side a disgruntled, disintegrating bench player (at best) for a high flying, dynamic swing man who can create his own shots and play the one on one game with the best of them.

And if Dudley starts playing well under Gentry's system, then its a bonus

 

[Mainstreet]

You know who else is very talented? Tim Thomas. How come more people weren't crying when the Suns sent him packing?

I definitely was crying over the Suns losing TT because he was supposedly not worth the salary. Then the Suns go sign Banks for a similar amount who definitely was not worth the salary.

 

[Ninjafish]

Your right. Fixed my post.

So, how is this a rebuttle? First off this is one game. I bet you I can find a game log that makes him look even worse. Also, You claim head to head is no indication. Well using a game log has bigger holes as pointed out. All that shows is that Raja played better defense then Barbosa. Not that Raja played good defense because he didn't. Which was the point. If anything you reinforced the point but in a different way.

You can't just cherry pick one stat at a time poke holes and say it's no inidication. Especially, when there is more then one stat that points to the same problem. It's several factors not just one stat. It's all of that put together with what people see.

It's not like I went through every box score for the season and picked one that would be favorable to Raja. You gave me a bunch of names in the other thread and I picked the first one on the list. And what I discovered there showed me that it wouldn't even be worth my time to go through the rest.

You're right, a game log isn't much of an indication of someone's defense either. If I intended to show that Raja was a good defender based on that, then I would be wrong as well. Although we can see that Majo completely blew up in the few minutes that Raja was out the game. It's pretty strange that he would score 40% of his points in those few minutes that Raja was out if Raja was that horrible of a defender. But I'm not inferring anything by that. It could just be a coincidence, who knows.

All we did is traded 2 bad performing players on this team for a guy who was playing great for his team. How the trade ultimately turns out doesn't matter because we were not getting performance out of the guys that were here. It's unreal you guys don't get that.

Incredible. We were not getting performances we wanted out of the guys here because they were playing in a crappy system. JRich's performances since they left haven't been anything to jump out of our seats about either, in case you haven't noticed.

We traded 2 okay performing players for a guy who was playing great for his team but when he came here he just performed okay. Because of Porter.

Just because Bell and Diaw weren't playing great with Porter doesn't mean they wouldn't be playing great now that Porter is gone.

 

[Covert Rain]

It's not like I went through every box score for the season and picked one that would be favorable to Raja. You gave me a bunch of names in the other thread and I picked the first one on the list. And what I discovered there showed me that it wouldn't even be worth my time to go through the rest.

Well no harm no foul because it still reinforced my point. All you managed to do was deflect some of the blame on Barbosa and highlight how bad Barbosa can be on defense. It was no example of good defense on Raja's part.

Incredible. We were not getting performances we wanted out of the guys here because they were playing in a crappy system. JRich's performances since they left haven't been anything to jump out of our seats about either, in case you haven't noticed.

That's Bull. Both Raja and Daiw were struggling last year as well. In Raja's case he continued to get worse. Did the system make him continue to get worse or was it Raja. Who knows. I don't care. He was worse.

We traded 2 okay performing players for a guy who was playing great for his team but when he came here he just performed okay. Because of Porter.

OK, so at the very least. Don't you want to see what this guy can do when utilized right? By the way, saying that Raja was playing OK is a stretch. Diaw as well.

 

[Chaplin]

Incredible. We were not getting performances we wanted out of the guys here because they were playing in a crappy system. JRich's performances since they left haven't been anything to jump out of our seats about either, in case you haven't noticed.

We traded 2 okay performing players for a guy who was playing great for his team but when he came here he just performed okay. Because of Porter.

Just because Bell and Diaw weren't playing great with Porter doesn't mean they wouldn't be playing great now that Porter is gone.

Here's the thing, it wasn't just THIS YEAR that both Raja and Diaw weren't playing well. Raja hadn't played lockdown defense for over a year. He was decent, but he wasn't a stopper anymore. Porter just made it worse. And I can't believe I'm still responding about Boris. The guy had ONE GOOD YEAR, and that wasn't last year.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Bump.

Be sure to add last night to the awesome games Diaw has had this year.

And with Barbosa playing out of his mind, the trade for J-Rich is looking worse and worse.

Would anyone really not rather have Diaw and Bell at this point?

 

[binkar]

Bump.

Be sure to add last night to the awesome games Diaw has had this year.

And with Barbosa playing out of his mind, the trade for J-Rich is looking worse and worse.

Would anyone really not rather have Diaw and Bell at this point?

Come on man let it rest. J Rich is playing well and Bell and Diaw were unhappy. Is Boris playing well? Yes. But the guy wasn't doing those things here and Bell wanted out. Bell's defense is declining and Boris wasn't earning his contract with us. It's easy to say we would rather have them now that he is playing better for another team and Amare is out. So to answer your question, no I wouldn't rather have Boris and Bell. J-Rich is averaging 23 points and shooting 55% from three point range under Gentry.

Don't get me wrong, I like Boris and Bell and both are good players. But to answer your question. No, I really would rather not have Bell and Diaw over J-Rich and Dudley especially if this team is going to have to rebuild.

 

[lou_skywalker]

J-Rich upgraded our SG position auite a bit (at least offensively)
Although Dudley can not fully replace Diaw just yet, I think he is making good progress.
And teh most important thing is: everyone is happy

 

[CharlieTheBull]

The mistake was to trade Diaw instead of Amare.

 

[devilalum]

Bump.

Be sure to add last night to the awesome games Diaw has had this year.

And with Barbosa playing out of his mind, the trade for J-Rich is looking worse and worse.

Would anyone really not rather have Diaw and Bell at this point?

Last night JRich was +19 and LB was -3. I like the way these two compliment each other. The deal is done. Boris will always be an
enigma and Bell is definitely on the downside.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Come on man let it rest. J Rich is playing well and Bell and Diaw were unhappy. Is Boris playing well? Yes. But the guy wasn't doing those things here and Bell wanted out. Bell's defense is declining and Boris wasn't earning his contract with us. It's easy to say we would rather have them now that he is playing better for another team and Amare is out. So to answer your question, no I wouldn't rather have Boris and Bell. J-Rich is averaging 23 points and shooting 55% from three point range under Gentry.

Don't get me wrong, I like Boris and Bell and both are good players. But to answer your question. No, I really would rather not have Bell and Diaw over J-Rich and Dudley especially if this team is going to have to rebuild.

Bell was upset at Porter. His beliefs have been vindicated by management.

Boris was playing well despite Porter.

This trade was a mistake.

btw - I can almost guarantee I wont be "letting this go". Its only been 2 months and Im the type of guy who still gets worked up over Joe Johnson.

 

[Chaplin]

Bell was upset at Porter. His beliefs have been vindicated by management.

Boris was playing well despite Porter.

This trade was a mistake.

btw - I can almost guarantee I wont be "letting this go". Its only been 2 months and Im the type of guy who still gets worked up over Joe Johnson.

Diaw was NOT playing well! We all know his potential, but I for one was sick and tired of seemingly not wanting to play to that potential. Regardless of who was the coach.

I love Raja, but despite his problems with Porter, he was CLEARLY not helping the team. He was a black hole out there. Maybe because of Porter, maybe because he is simply old. But there was no way to know back then that Porter would be fired and we would return to this style with Gentry. Hindsight is 20/20, but you can't use that to justify your convenient opinion.

What is it with posters with the word "fan" in their screen name?

 

[AfroSuns]

Bell was upset at Porter. His beliefs have been vindicated by management.

Boris was playing well despite Porter.

This trade was a mistake.

btw - I can almost guarantee I wont be "letting this go". Its only been 2 months and Im the type of guy who still gets worked up over Joe Johnson.

I suggest you get therapy then!!
I particularly like both players but i will still take the J-Rich trade. Amare was out and Nash was injured before the game ended, and yet your awesome duo couldn't help them win. Yes they put up better numbers, no doubt because they have a point to prove in addition to the tempo of the game.