Why did we trade for J-Rich?

[binkar]

Bell was upset at Porter. His beliefs have been vindicated by management.

Boris was playing well despite Porter.

This trade was a mistake.

btw - I can almost guarantee I wont be "letting this go". Its only been 2 months and Im the type of guy who still gets worked up over Joe Johnson.

You have to be speaking purely on emotion because it doesn't make much sense. Averaging 25 minutes a game with the suns this season Boris averaged just over 8 points and just over 3 rebounds a game. Tell me you don't think those number warrant 9 million dollars a year. He and Dudley average nearly the same amount of rebounds per 48 minutes. I am not saying he and Dudley are comparable players because Boris is obviously the better player but I would take what Dudley brings for just over a million a year FAR before I take what Boris brought to the Suns for 9 million a year.

Also, these are 2 players that we can keep around for awhile. It is without question that we will be rebuilding soon and Richardson and Dudley are both young players we can keep around.

I really do like both Raja and Boris but can't possibly see your reasoning in thinking this was a bad deal for us.

 

[binkar]

Having just read back over the entire thread, I am embarrassed that I am even taking time to combat da_suns_fans arguments. da_suns_fan, if you are going to aruge these points so emphatically then please give some reasoning for them. Not like "Leandro is better than J-Rich" or "Boris had a better game last night than J Rich" or "Raja is a better defender".

Give me some reasoning as to how this made us a worse team now and in the future. Tell me how is was a bad salary move. Tell me what this team had before the trade that we no longer have now (excluding any arguments about Amare getting injured). Give me something statistical or something (and not showing me Diaw's numbers in Charlotte that is irrelevant cause Boris got plenty of time here and didn't help this team much).

If you are going to argue this so passionately than please provide some legit arguments.

 

[lou_skywalker]

You have to be speaking purely on emotion because it doesn't make much sense. Averaging 25 minutes a game with the suns this season Boris averaged just over 8 points and just over 3 rebounds a game. Tell me you don't think those number warrant 9 million dollars a year. He and Dudley average nearly the same amount of rebounds per 48 minutes. I am not saying he and Dudley are comparable players because Boris is obviously the better player but I would take what Dudley brings for just over a million a year FAR before I take what Boris brought to the Suns for 9 million a year.

Also, these are 2 players that we can keep around for awhile. It is without question that we will be rebuilding soon and Richardson and Dudley are both young players we can keep around.

I really do like both Raja and Boris but can't possibly see your reasoning in thinking this was a bad deal for us.

I totally agree. Bell is a great defender but he had the most problems with Porter.
Diaw was also a great backup for Amare but he cannot exhibit his potential with 8 minutes per game. I think the trade actually benefited Diaw because he plays with more confidence and can out up 20+ points with ease.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Having just read back over the entire thread, I am embarrassed that I am even taking time to combat da_suns_fans arguments. da_suns_fan, if you are going to aruge these points so emphatically then please give some reasoning for them. Not like "Leandro is better than J-Rich" or "Boris had a better game last night than J Rich" or "Raja is a better defender".

Give me some reasoning as to how this made us a worse team now and in the future. Tell me how is was a bad salary move. Tell me what this team had before the trade that we no longer have now (excluding any arguments about Amare getting injured). Give me something statistical or something (and not showing me Diaw's numbers in Charlotte that is irrelevant cause Boris got plenty of time here and didn't help this team much).

If you are going to argue this so passionately than please provide some legit arguments.

Yes, where as my arguments are being combatted with "well we won even though Diaw and Bell are so great so the trade was good for us!"

How was it a bad move salary wise? Raja Bell's contract expires during the COVETED summer of 2010, giving fantastic flexibility. We could either keep him and let it expire or possible get a steal from a team trying to free up space to make a run at the plethera of free agents.

Some would argue that we dont want to pay Diaw 9 million through 2012, but we're actually paying J-Rich 14 million through 2011.

Do the math, this move gave us ZERO financial flexibility.

From a basketball standpoint, I started this thread BEFORE Barbosa's OKC game in which he put up numbers that have only been duplicated by Jordan, Bird, Chamberlin and I believe two others (someone else probably saw that stat last night).

If they wanted more scoring, they should have fired the coach. Bell and Barbosa, Hill and Barnes provide more than enough offense from the wings.

And we haven't even touched on Diaw's game yet. Forget the fact that he's our best big defender, he was probably our best one-on-one player and the best when in the half court. We all remember he was unguardable against the Spurs last year.

So basically, this move gave us less cap space for 2010, made our weaknesses worse, provided an additional asset in an area that we didn't need, and was made moot after the coaching change (we didnt need another offensive player, we needed to dump the clown they hired for a coach).

Look, I like J-Rich just fine. But this trade was an obvious mistake in hindsight.

 

[Bufalay]

Diaw wasn't earning his contract, but neither is JRich.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Bell was upset at Porter. His beliefs have been vindicated by management.

Boris was playing well despite Porter.

This trade was a mistake.

btw - I can almost guarantee I wont be "letting this go". Its only been 2 months and Im the type of guy who still gets worked up over Joe Johnson.

You're either dating Boris or you're the most delusional liar on this forum.

 

[jagu]

Boris and his lazy ass passes that get picked off? Or Boris taking 17 foot jumpshots that bounce off the front of the rim?

If Boris had man parts when he played in Phoenix, he'd be great.

 

[nowagimp]

. Averaging 25 minutes a game with the suns this season Boris averaged just over 8 points and just over 3 rebounds a game. Tell me you don't think those number warrant 9 million dollars a year. He and Dudley average nearly the same amount of rebounds per 48 minutes. I am not saying he and Dudley are comparable players because Boris is obviously the better player but I would take what Dudley brings for just over a million a year FAR before I take what Boris brought to the Suns for 9 million a year.

The premise of the OP, I believe is that LOTS of guys played poorly under porters system, not just Bella nd Diaw. That was just the beginning of the witch hunt to find the suns problems producing with all that "talent". Well it looks like that talent was good for the running game but not the half court slow down game. The players probably all knew they werent as good playing porterball. Barnes, Nash, LB, Raja, Diaw, Amare, JRich even Lou are better players in the fast paced game, most of them alot better. Diaw and Bell looked fine running dropping 50 on the suns using just 26 shots to do it (19/26) yesterday.

Boris did poorly in the porter system as a reserve, but so did hill, barnes, marion and any player in recent memory. This is because the suns second unit has been weak in the halfcourt, they didnt have enough guys that could create their own shot, even more of a necessity in the slow down game. Diaw is best as a PF, not as shaqs lightweight backup at center, which was where porter liked to use him. He also needs some perimeter shooting to get the spacing to operate from the elbow, just like amare but moreso. He wasnt getting that in the second unit.

Its obvious now that all the suns are better running a faster pace except perhaps shaq. They didnt arrive on the roster of the SSOL suns by accident. Barnes and JRich came from an even faster paced system in golden state. Hence, its no suprise that some fans might be reluctant to trust the porter "slow down era" stats in determining player effectiveness. As far as Boris and dudley. Dudley cannot defend the bigger players, he is shorter and his length is quite a bit less than Diaw. I admit the suns couldnt find a way to utilize Diaws talents that was worth 9M per, .... expect perhaps now after amare went down. That JRich trade made the suns weaker up front, alot weaker. I like JRich, but the suns needed a big in return for Diaw given Robin Lopez status as a poor mans greg ostertag.

The suns do need to use dudley now as he is a better defender at the PF than the 3's the suns are currently using there. The problem is the dropoff in offense is pretty bad with dudley, at least in the few games he has played recently.

 

[jagu]

Wait Boris sucked under D'Antoni too. He had one good season and then got big bucks and turned into a WBNA player.

 

[Folster]

I remember quite a few Hawks fans who were upset that Boris was performing so well for us the year following the JJ trade after playing so crappy for them. Now we are in the same boat. History repeats itself. I imagine Charlotte fans will not be as happy in the coming years when Boris comes into camp out of shape and goes back in to his ultra-passive shell. You never know though. Maybe Larry Brown is the perfect coach for Boris and will be able to keep him assertive and motivated. Good luck to both Boris and Raja. We got two good players in return as well. One just has some driving problems.

 

[da_suns_fan]

You're either dating Boris or you're the most delusional liar on this forum.

Nope, I thought Diaw was one of the guys who actually played with some effort this year. The others would be Nash, Bell, Lou, Grant and LB.

Basically, everyone besides Amare and Shaq.

But keep riding the lazy cliche that Diaw is soft or out-of-shape that defined him back in 07.

Diaw is an outstanding one-on-one defender. He has a fantastic BBall IQ.

Amare and Shaq are the only "lazy" people on this team.

 

[binkar]

The premise of the OP, I believe is that LOTS of guys played poorly under porters system, not just Bella nd Diaw. That was just the beginning of the witch hunt to find the suns problems producing with all that "talent". Well it looks like that talent was good for the running game but not the half court slow down game. The players probably all knew they werent as good playing porterball. Barnes, Nash, LB, Raja, Diaw, Amare, JRich even Lou are better players in the fast paced game, most of them alot better. Diaw and Bell looked fine running dropping 50 on the suns using just 26 shots to do it (19/26) yesterday.

Boris did poorly in the porter system as a reserve, but so did hill, barnes, marion and any player in recent memory. This is because the suns second unit has been weak in the halfcourt, they didnt have enough guys that could create their own shot, even more of a necessity in the slow down game. Diaw is best as a PF, not as shaqs lightweight backup at center, which was where porter liked to use him. He also needs some perimeter shooting to get the spacing to operate from the elbow, just like amare but moreso. He wasnt getting that in the second unit.

Its obvious now that all the suns are better running a faster pace except perhaps shaq. They didnt arrive on the roster of the SSOL suns by accident. Barnes and JRich came from an even faster paced system in golden state. Hence, its no suprise that some fans might be reluctant to trust the porter "slow down era" stats in determining player effectiveness. As far as Boris and dudley. Dudley cannot defend the bigger players, he is shorter and his length is quite a bit less than Diaw. I admit the suns couldnt find a way to utilize Diaws talents that was worth 9M per, .... expect perhaps now after amare went down. That JRich trade made the suns weaker up front, alot weaker. I like JRich, but the suns needed a big in return for Diaw given Robin Lopez status as a poor mans greg ostertag.

The suns do need to use dudley now as he is a better defender at the PF than the 3's the suns are currently using there. The problem is the dropoff in offense is pretty bad with dudley, at least in the few games he has played recently.

I completely understand and agree with a lot of your points, but even under Mike D's system last year Boris averaged only 8.8 points and 4.6 boards in over 28 minutes. Boris without question is a better post defender than Dudley and with Amare's injury we have little front court depth. You always have to give up something to get something. But like I said before with salaries and everything considered I still think this is a great deal for the Suns and also think it's a good deal for the Bobcats.

 

[Cheesewater]

But keep riding the lazy cliche that Diaw is soft or out-of-shape that defined him back in 07.

Diaw is an outstanding one-on-one defender. He has a fantastic BBall IQ.

I'll bet that right this very minute, Bobcats fans are gnashing their teeth over how if only Boris would have taken the shot down there in the paint instead of throwing it out, maybe they could've won last night.

Amare and Shaq are the only "lazy" people on this team.

If you can't see that O'Neal is contributing above and beyond conventional expectation this season, check for a hole in your head.

O'Neal just last night in 30 minutes: 20pts 11reb 3blk 86%ft

 

[binkar]

Nope, I thought Diaw was one of the guys who actually played with some effort this year. The others would be Nash, Bell, Lou, Grant and LB.

Basically, everyone besides Amare and Shaq.

But keep riding the lazy cliche that Diaw is soft or out-of-shape that defined him back in 07.

Diaw is an outstanding one-on-one defender. He has a fantastic BBall IQ.

Amare and Shaq are the only "lazy" people on this team.

Come on man as stated before you are being completely delusional. Shaq is probably the only one who exceeded expectations this year. That's not to say every else has played bad, but Shaq has surprised a lot of people this year.

Can you really tell me you think Diaw was producing 9 million dollars worth for the Suns?

How about those legitimate reasons I was asking for on why this is a bad trade. You are still talking out of emotion and are not being logical.

 

[Covert Rain]

Bell was struggling last season with inconsistency on both ends of the floor. It just continued into this season. This season he was just abismal. Diaw was never going to blossum as a Sun. He was horrid on the defensive end at PF and didn't show up every single game (under D'Antoni and Porter). So, it is not simply a Porter issue. It's incredibly stupid to base this trade on how they are playing now because they were not playing up to par 2 seasons running with this team.

In terms of JRich. He has been used wrong since the day he got here. Since, we went back to the run and gun system it appears that JRich is finally being unleashed.

Since the change of system JRich has averaged 23 PPG, 55% from 3 Point Range, 65% from the field and is leading the NBA in points off of fast breaks. The last time we had a guy leading the NBA in points off fast breaks was Shawn Marion. Those are sick numbers by any standards. Someone on the board a week or so back predicted JRich would do this now that the system has changed. Kudos to them. Hopefully, he keeps it up.

 

[Andrew]

J Rich is an offensive weapon on any given night.

 

[binkar]

J Rich is an offensive weapon on any given night.

Haha thanks for that wonderful insight Andrew...

 

[da_suns_fan]

Come on man as stated before you are being completely delusional. Shaq is probably the only one who exceeded expectations this year. That's not to say every else has played bad, but Shaq has surprised a lot of people this year.

Can you really tell me you think Diaw was producing 9 million dollars worth for the Suns?

How about those legitimate reasons I was asking for on why this is a bad trade. You are still talking out of emotion and are not being logical.

Eh....you must have not read this on the last page:

Yes, where as my arguments are being combatted with "well we won even though Diaw and Bell are so great so the trade was good for us!"

How was it a bad move salary wise? Raja Bell's contract expires during the COVETED summer of 2010, giving fantastic flexibility. We could either keep him and let it expire or possible get a steal from a team trying to free up space to make a run at the plethera of free agents.

Some would argue that we dont want to pay Diaw 9 million through 2012, but we're actually paying J-Rich 14 million through 2011.

Do the math, this move gave us ZERO financial flexibility.

From a basketball standpoint, I started this thread BEFORE Barbosa's OKC game in which he put up numbers that have only been duplicated by Jordan, Bird, Chamberlin and I believe two others (someone else probably saw that stat last night).

If they wanted more scoring, they should have fired the coach. Bell and Barbosa, Hill and Barnes provide more than enough offense from the wings.

And we haven't even touched on Diaw's game yet. Forget the fact that he's our best big defender, he was probably our best one-on-one player and the best when in the half court. We all remember he was unguardable against the Spurs last year.

So basically, this move gave us less cap space for 2010, made our weaknesses worse, provided an additional asset in an area that we didn't need, and was made moot after the coaching change (we didnt need another offensive player, we needed to dump the clown they hired for a coach).

Look, I like J-Rich just fine. But this trade was an obvious mistake in hindsight.

 

[Bufalay]

J Rich is an offensive weapon on any given night.

What the hell does that mean? Are you just a random-cliche-spewing automaton?

 

[binkar]

Eh....you must have not read this on the last page:

I am not claiming that it gives us salary flexibility, but you should be well aware that Boris Diaw's contract was widely considered to be one of the worst contracts in the league the last few years (as well as Marcus Banks). I am simply saying that to unload a guy who was getting paid 9 million to produce 8 points and 4 boards in nearly 30 minutes every night and a declining, unhappy old wing player for an exciting J-Rich who averaged almost 22 points a game last year and a young, energetic role player is a great deal. Like I said, the deal has also turned out to be great for the Bobcats as well.

I acknowledge your opinion that the trade was bad (though I don't see any of your arguments being valid) and will agree to disagree. I rest my case .

 

[95pro]

J Rich is an offensive weapon on any given night.

okay, mark jackson.

 

[Covert Rain]

I am not claiming that it gives us salary flexibility, but you should be well aware that Boris Diaw's contract was widely considered to be one of the worst contracts in the league the last few years (as well as Marcus Banks). I am simply saying that to unload a guy who was getting paid 9 million to produce 8 points and 4 boards in nearly 30 minutes every night and a declining, unhappy old wing player for an exciting J-Rich who averaged almost 22 points a game last year and a young, energetic role player is a great deal. Like I said, the deal has also turned out to be great for the Bobcats as well.

Exactly. Even the hindsight argument has no validity because even if tomorrow you put Boris back on this team (assuming Amare was not injured or even when he gets back), Boris goes back to the bench and produces EXACTLY the way he did before. Yes it would have been great to have him as a backup now that Amare is hurt. However, when Amare gets back it becomes a crappy situation again, we go back to the same old Boris off the bench. Raja may or may not have returned to the old Raja but JRich is a better player.

 

[nowagimp]

I completely understand and agree with a lot of your points, but even under Mike D's system last year Boris averaged only 8.8 points and 4.6 boards in over 28 minutes.

Boris backed up shaq last year most of the time, when boris plays center defensively, it hurts his production, and being in the second unit was always a problem with the spacing, DA or porter. The poor spacing that the second unit gets makes all those guys play at a lower level. Its like Barnes or Hill, both are better in the first unit, hill has a bigger dropoff in the second though. Who you are on the floor with matters, and it just couldnt be justified to replace amare with boris, and boris is not very good at deefending the SF. Boris is a playmaker and will play as well as the cast he is surrounded with, and now the first unit of the bobcats is>>> than the second unit of the suns. Chris paul even went though a bad slew of games when Peja was injured. Playmakers need the pieces to work with.

 

[Covert Rain]

Boris backed up shaq last year most of the time

That's a false statement. He came in for Shaq but usually Amare slid to center while Diaw played PF. Diaw, based on Amare's foul situation, did sometimes play center but most of the time played PF when Amare was out there. Diaw also played many minutes with Shaq out there...again playing PF. His defensive numbers while playing at the PF position defensively were horrible.

 

[elindholm]

Wait Boris sucked under D'Antoni too. He had one good season and then got big bucks and turned into a WBNA player.

Yes, exactly. If fact Diaw is more effective in a half-court game than in a running one. Had the Suns kept Diaw and still replaced Porter with Gentry, Diaw would still be struggling. Even in his big game last night, he got his production in half-court sets, not during fast breaks. So the question becomes, did it make sense to keep Diaw as a third "big man" low-post option, given that the Suns already have O'Neal and Stoudemire? Of course not. On the Bobcats, by contrast, their other bigs aren't scorers, so Diaw is a better fit.

Once Stoudemire came back from microfracture, Diaw was already redundant. Adding O'Neal made the issue even more acute. Had Diaw played like a first option when given the opportunity in any of the past 2 1/2 years, he would have been worth keeping. Instead, he pouted and slacked off and made himself worthless.

Bell is probably a different story. He might still be happy with the Suns had the coaching change been made earlier. On the other hand, he'd also be putting in time at PF right now, and I kind of doubt that we'd be happy with those results.