Why is the Knight-White trade a mistake?

hcsilla

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is the Knight-White trad

Originally posted by Chaplin
Takes one to know one, I guess.

Is that patronizing enough for you? :)

No, it's not because I don't understand it.

I don't understand why you have to depend on fantasy to prove a point--it never works.

According to you it is impossible to judge a trade after some months or years since you never know how the involved teams would have played without the trade.
Is that your point?
 

Chaplin

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is the Knight-White

Originally posted by hcsilla
No, it's not because I don't understand it.



According to you it is impossible to judge a trade after some months or years since you never know how the involved teams would have played without the trade.
Is that your point?

Wrong. It's not that you can't judge a trade, you can. But you have to be able to make some sort of sense.
 

hcsilla

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is the Knight-Wh

Originally posted by Chaplin
Wrong. It's not that you can't judge a trade, you can. But you have to be able to make some sort of sense.
Why doesn't comparing Outlaw's and Tsakalidis' to White's contibutions make some sort of sense?
 

George O'Brien

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is the Knigh

Originally posted by hcsilla
Why doesn't comparing Outlaw's and Tsakalidis' to White's contibutions make some sort of sense?

Am I the only one who cannot figure out what these two are arguing about?

:confused:
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by George O'Brien
Am I the only one who cannot figure out what these two are arguing about?

:confused:

No, you're not the only one. :)
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by Chaplin
No, you're not the only one. :)

OK, you are two.

I said that Suns traded basically Tsakailidis and Outlaw for White.
That is rather a downgrade than an improvement.

After you said that I depend on fantasy and that comparison doesn't make sense.
It's obviously my fault that you don't understand what I mean so I will try to rephrase my point.

I think that White is overpaid. He may be less overpaid than Outlaw but he is still overpaid.
Suns traded for him because they thought that White will make them to more competetive.
Actually he did not. Not at all.

Suns took an overpaid player and that didn't pay-off on court.
The only result of the White-Knight-trade right now is reducing of our FA signing possibilities this coming offseason.

That's why I think th White-Knight-trade was a mistake.
I thought that after the trade as well and it turned out even worse after the NYK deal.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by hcsilla

I think that White is overpaid. He may be less overpaid than Outlaw but he is still overpaid.
Suns traded for him because they thought that White will make them to more competetive.
Actually he did not. Not at all.




That's where we disagree.
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by hcsilla
OK, you are two.

I said that Suns traded basically Tsakailidis and Outlaw for White.
That is rather a downgrade than an improvement.

I think that White is overpaid. He may be less overpaid than Outlaw but he is still overpaid.
Suns traded for him because they thought that White will make them to more competetive.
Actually he did not. Not at all.

Suns took an overpaid player and that didn't pay-off on court.
The only result of the White-Knight-trade right now is reducing of our FA signing possibilities this coming offseason.

That's why I think th White-Knight-trade was a mistake.
I thought that after the trade as well and it turned out even worse after the NYK deal.

Two points. First, the net result of the deal is Outlaw and Big Jake for White and Harvey (effectively traded for Archibald and 2nd round swap).

White is better than Big Jake. Not enough better, but Big Jake is hopeless. White is too slow, but he actually gets rebounds and blocks shots while Big Jake just stands around looking confused.

Harvey is close to Bo in productivity (more points and rebounds, less defensive disruption).

At worst, the deal is a wash. IMHO it is a clear net gain for the Suns.
 

Joe Mama

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I really do not understand this thread. It's not rocket science. If the Suns could do it over again knowing where they are now there is not a chance in hell they would trade Brevin Knight and his expiring for Jahidi White. Not a chance. Whether he's been an upgrade over Jake Tsakalidis and Bo Outlaw is somewhat debatable, but there should be no debate over whether they would make them move again today. They absolutely would not. The salary cap space is much more valuable than anything he has contributed.

And that's all I have to say about that. :)

Joe Mama
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
I really do not understand this thread. It's not rocket science. If the Suns could do it over again knowing where they are now there is not a chance in hell they would trade Brevin Knight and his expiring for Jahidi White. Not a chance. Whether he's been an upgrade over Jake Tsakalidis and Bo Outlaw is somewhat debatable, but there should be no debate over whether they would make them move again today. They absolutely would not. The salary cap space is much more valuable than anything he has contributed.

And that's all I have to say about that. :)

Joe Mama

Sure, we say that now, but back when the trade was made, it wasn't made for salary cap reasons, it was made for basketball reasons. And at the time, I thought it was a good deal--none of us suspected Marbury would be gone.
 

elindholm

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If White has made the Suns better, how many wins would they have without him? Ten?
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by elindholm
If White has made the Suns better, how many wins would they have without him? Ten?

And your point is? Would we have won more games with Marbury and Brevin Knight?
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by elindholm
If White has made the Suns better, how many wins would they have without him? Ten?

If he was reason that Stoudemire and Carbakapa wasn't playing, then you might have a point. If he was the reason that FJ didn't know what he was doing or that Marion had a very slow start, then sure White is the reason the Suns are doing badly. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately the NBA is too competative for a team to lose a player like Amare and still win. White is not enough to change that, but in most of the games the Suns have been competitive. Are you suggesting that they would be within 20 points of anyone with only Little Jake playing center?

:trout:
 

elindholm

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White is not enough to change that, but in most of the games the Suns have been competitive. Are you suggesting that they would be within 20 points of anyone with only Little Jake playing center?

I confess I haven't followed the games closely enough to know how often the Suns have really been "competitive." I just know that they've been losing almost all of the time. But the spectre of a center rotation that begins and ends with Voskuhl is misleading. Scott Williams has been healthy a lot of the time, and they could have used Trybanski or Archibald before trading them. Would those center rotations have been as effective as the ones with White? Probably not, but since the bottom line is wins, White's impact evidently hasn't been so great after all.
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by elindholm
White is not enough to change that, but in most of the games the Suns have been competitive. Are you suggesting that they would be within 20 points of anyone with only Little Jake playing center?

I confess I haven't followed the games closely enough to know how often the Suns have really been "competitive." I just know that they've been losing almost all of the time. But the spectre of a center rotation that begins and ends with Voskuhl is misleading. Scott Williams has been healthy a lot of the time, and they could have used Trybanski or Archibald before trading them. Would those center rotations have been as effective as the ones with White? Probably not, but since the bottom line is wins, White's impact evidently hasn't been so great after all.

Archibald and Trybanski? :stupid: (Hey, no offense)

These guys can't play. Archibald might get minutes on a slow down team like the Raptors, but I doubt it. White has a lifetime shooting percentage of 50.8% (48.7% this year) and a career rebounding average of 6.3 rpg. His rpg is down to 4.7, but that is more than for Jake Voskuhl who is playing 8 more minutes per game.

Don't get me wrong, White is overpaid but he is no Robert Archibald.
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by George O'Brien
Two points. First, the net result of the deal is Outlaw and Big Jake for White and Harvey (effectively traded for Archibald and 2nd round swap).


For the 3rd time in this thread Suns could have acquired Harvey even without Archibald IF Harvey is such an important factor which he si obviously not.
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
I really do not understand this thread. It's not rocket science. If the Suns could do it over again knowing where they are now there is not a chance in hell they would trade Brevin Knight and his expiring for Jahidi White. Not a chance. Whether he's been an upgrade over Jake Tsakalidis and Bo Outlaw is somewhat debatable, but there should be no debate over whether they would make them move again today. They absolutely would not. The salary cap space is much more valuable than anything he has contributed.

Joe Mama
Exactly.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by hcsilla
For the 3rd time in this thread Suns could have acquired Harvey even without Archibald IF Harvey is such an important factor which he si obviously not.

Regardless of the semantics, I don't think the Harvey trade would have happened had Archibald not be included in some form, because Orlando really wanted him to ship to Toronto.
 
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F-Dog

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
I really do not understand this thread. It's not rocket science. If the Suns could do it over again knowing where they are now there is not a chance in hell they would trade Brevin Knight and his expiring for Jahidi White. Not a chance. Whether he's been an upgrade over Jake Tsakalidis and Bo Outlaw is somewhat debatable, but there should be no debate over whether they would make them move again today. They absolutely would not. The salary cap space is much more valuable than anything he has contributed.

And that's all I have to say about that. :)

Joe Mama

Why?

Who are they going to get with that extra cap room if not Kobe?

White's contract is done after next season anyway...
 

Joe Mama

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Originally posted by F-Dog
Why?

Who are they going to get with that extra cap room if not Kobe?

White's contract is done after next season anyway...

Actually, that's a very good point. However if they wanted to make other deals, where if they wanted to trade for that superstar (Tracy McGrady) Howard Eiseley's expiring contract could have come in handy.

You do make a good point though. If the Suns target is not Kobe Bryant, or if it takes a draft pick to get rid of Jahidi White's contract to make a run at Bryant that Brevin Knight deal is going to look bad.

Joe Mama
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by Chaplin
Regardless of the semantics, I don't think the Harvey trade would have happened had Archibald not be included in some form, because Orlando really wanted him to ship to Toronto.

That's a point but Archibald has nothing to do with the White-Knight-trade.

Suns could have acquired Harvey even without the White-trade.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by hcsilla
That's a point but Archibald has nothing to do with the White-Knight-trade.

Suns could have acquired Harvey even without the White-trade.

"Could" and "Would" are not the same thing, hcsilla. You don't know if Orlando required Archibald in some form in order to agree to the Harvey trade. You have no confirmation that we were going to get Harvey regardless of whether Archibald was traded.
 

George O'Brien

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There are two issues being discussed here.

1. Was the White trade a bad decision in retrospect (ie that the Suns would be in the free agent market).

2. Was the string of trades a mistake from the start: Bo and Big Jake to Memphis for Knight, Archibald, and Trybanski then Knight to Washington for White and Archibald to Orlando for Harvey.

I'm willing to accept that in retrospect the White deal hurts. If you are going to lose, then maybe it doesn't matter if you are competitive if you can sign a stud free agent or get a super draft pick.

What I am not convinced of is the claim that these trades did not make basketball sense. The fact that they did not turn into wins is hardly the basis for judging moves related to secondary players.

I will stand by my conclusion that the White and Harvey combination is better than the Bo and Big Jake combination in strictly basketball terms. I will also insist that over the course of the season, the Suns will win more games with White playing than if Knight remained. Strictly basketball, not cap or finances, the deal made sense. But all of us would like that cap room back NOW.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by George O'Brien

I will stand by conclusion that the White and Harvey combination is better than the Bo and Big Jake combination in strictly basketball terms. I will also insist that over the course of the season, the Suns will win more games with White playing than if Knight remained. Strictly basketball, not cap or finances, the deal made sense. But all of us would like that cap room back NOW.

That is exactly what I have been reiterating.
 

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