Wide Receivers are Frustrated

[john h]

Some of what you say is right on but King could not have made the throw to Fitz against Miami and he will not become a Three of 4 year starter the way JM could if he finds his consistancy in the passing game. He is not doing anything special to help us win? See scramble against Miami. We also converted along 3rd and 11 yesterday with a 16 yard completion that lead to a Td...so somethings are working. We as fans want gaudy numbers from our top pick WRs and there are several reasons we aren't getting them JM included. THe QB always gets to much credit for winning and to much for losses. The thing that is nice is this becoming a team and our wins are because of the Team not individuals like QB or RB. Everyone is contributing and lets keep it rolling in Carolina. The stadium rocked yesterday!

How do we know what King woud do or not do? Seems he played one quarter and was something like 5 for 5. Any speculation on what King would do is just that "speculation". He may be worse than worse or better than good. None of it seems to matter as it seems Green is going the distance with him no matter how he plays.

 

[jstadvl]

Thank you

11. I guess I did make my point. That had nothing to do with comparing the two QB's.

 

[Chaz]

This is getting ridiculous.

If you listen to Green's answer about Josh it it very clear. Josh is not the entire problem with the offense.

Yes we have seen, sometimes when the line provides protection and the receivers run good routes, Josh makes a bad throw. I have also seen Josh running for his life before he can complete his drop. I have also seen Josh throw a quick hitch on a blitz and seen the receiver run straight down the field. Who made a mistake there? You and I don't know but Green, his staff, and the players do.
Nobody would argue that Josh is playing great but it could be a lot worse. I know as most of the rest of you do, we've seen worse.


If and when the rest of the offense is working and Josh is making the majority of the mistakes it will be time to replace him.

If your car has bad brakes, steering problems, and it is missing on two cylinders you don't replace the engine. It is overkill and doesn't fix the other problems even if it might run better.


Personally I am glad to see Green has some patience and a pragmatic view. Seems to me that has been lacking around here for a while if they ever had it. Green and Graves are the football minds in the organization. Let them make the decisions about who should play.

I have no doubt the receivers are frustrated. As are the lineman, backs, tight ends, coaches, and the quarterback that things are not going better on offense.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ I'm not arguing that you can't bench McCown you can but what makes you think DG is just screwing this up?

Why would he not bench McCown for a series or two just to make a point to him?

He could amp up the heat on Josh anytime he wants without necessarily benching him for good, so why hasn't he?

I am just arguing that DG has reasons and that I will defer to those reasons, especially when we are winning.

I see no reason to panic while we are winning. DG isn't he kind of coach that would stand by and watch awful perfromances forever without doing something. I guess I just trust him to do what he feels he should that's all.

To be honest that's why it's SO fascinating to me. With Jake there were obvious reasons, our backup stunk, intentionally, so there'd be no looking over Jake's shoulder. Jake was a local hero, had a huge contract, had been the QB in 98, there were obvious reasons why a guy not playing well was still playing. I didn't agree with them, but there were reasons.

Short of King just not playing well in practice I see no logical explanation. there's nothing in Green's career to explain it, he didn't do this in Minnesota. Near as I can tell Josh doesn't have some connection to Green like Fitz or Lindsay or Solomon and Hargraves, so for some reason Green thinks Josh is the best solution at QB. Which just totally baffles me given what I'm seeing on the field.

 

[SECTION 11]

Both kept their jobs heading into the 2004 season. Drew Brees proved his critics wrong, and is going to get a $9 million signing bonus this spring. Josh McCown, well, some are still calling for him to be benched in Week 11, and I don't think that anyone is happy with his play. At least, no one is saying so.

You can't just discount a half-season of one guy being an MVP candidate and another being an older Kyle Boller (except for how Kyle Boller is showing signs of life with far less talent on the outside, but whatever).

I know what you want to say, I know what you're trying to say, but it just isn't registering over here. Comparing Brees to McCown in any way is not helping your argument. September 12th was McCown's fourth game and Brees' 27th, but McCown had shown something to build on, while Brees put up worse numbers in '03 than McCown's on pace for in '04, but whatever.
All you have to do is answer the question...
Should have Sandy Eggo given up on Brees? Yes or no?

 

[john h]

Manning is definitely a machine and has been for the last couple years, but he's gonna have to win more playoff games and ultiamtely the big win before he gets mentioned amongst the all-time greats. Last year was a good step int he right direction for him, but he's still got a long way to go to reach football immortality IMO.

He is being mentioned among the all time greats right now. For those who look at stats he is going to break a few records very soon.

I have watched them all since before Johnny Unitas and Manning looks like the best I have ever seen,

Right now I would be happy to have just a middle of the road QB or at least one in waiting. Many bad mouth King although none of of us have seen him play for more than a quarter this year. If he is that bad why do we have him on the team? If Josh continues to falter what is our backup plan. Who do we go to next year? Our great receiving corps are going to be of little use if we do not have a guy who can throw more than 90 yds a game and worse than that they will be out of here the first chance they get. I continue to believe you start building around a QB not a receiver. Probably the two best teams in the league right now are the Colts and Pittsburg. Both have lights out passers. Yes they have other things but the teams would not be where they are without those two QB's. We are not going to get a Big Ben in next years draft so we are left to find a FA QB who is willing to come to AZ. The good FA QB's will have many choices and we are not known for paying the big $. Again what is our plan "B"?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I know what you want to say, I know what you're trying to say, but it just isn't registering over here. Comparing Brees to McCown in any way is not helping your argument. September 12th was McCown's fourth game and Brees' 27th, but McCown had shown something to build on, while Brees put up worse numbers in '03 than McCown's on pace for in '04, but whatever.
All you have to do is answer the question...
Should have Sandy Eggo given up on Brees? Yes or no?

once again - Brees showed immediately when he came in - leading the Chargers to a 7-2 record - that he might really be able to play in this league - that is a huge difference between him and Josh at this point.

I wouldn't really have all that many problems with Josh if he at least ONE huge game amongst all these stinkers (against someone other than a Niners team who's only victory is against us). THat's my biggest fear - usually a guy who is still trying to get at least puts it all together for a couple games during a really bad stretch - and we haven't seen that from Josh which is what worries me so much. Damnit - I got sucked into this pointless debate!

 

[Russ Smith]

11. I guess I did make my point. That had nothing to do with comparing the two QB's.

It's a valid point. Let's look at WHY San Diego is different. First, Brees was a high 2nd round pick they expected to start fairly early and were openly disappointed in his play. Josh was a 3rd rounder who in his own words could have gone 4th to 7th round before the Senior Bowl.

San Diego was so unhappy with Brees they drafted Rivers and ultimately gave him a huge contract, the negotiations took so long it ultimately gave Brees the job.

Brees has jumped all over the opportunity in a contract year and is going to make himself a lot of money somewhere. Josh is in a contract year, handed the starting job on a silver platter, and is doing very little to warrant keeping it.

Now I know your point was if San Diego had benched Brees LAST year, this wouldn't have happened for him. Last year Brees started 11 games, Doug Flutie started 5. Near as I can remember Brees was benched for performance, not injury, honestly don't know someone who does feel free to correct me.

So in a similar situation, Brees was benched, and is now playing better.

People forget benching Josh doesn't mean we give up on him for good, it just means he's not getting it done and might learn something. he might say man now I can see what I was missing, and unlike King I have the arm to take advantage of it?

 

[conraddobler]

It's a valid point. Let's look at WHY San Diego is different. First, Brees was a high 2nd round pick they expected to start fairly early and were openly disappointed in his play. Josh was a 3rd rounder who in his own words could have gone 4th to 7th round before the Senior Bowl.

San Diego was so unhappy with Brees they drafted Rivers and ultimately gave him a huge contract, the negotiations took so long it ultimately gave Brees the job.

Brees has jumped all over the opportunity in a contract year and is going to make himself a lot of money somewhere. Josh is in a contract year, handed the starting job on a silver platter, and is doing very little to warrant keeping it.

Now I know your point was if San Diego had benched Brees LAST year, this wouldn't have happened for him. Last year Brees started 11 games, Doug Flutie started 5. Near as I can remember Brees was benched for performance, not injury, honestly don't know someone who does feel free to correct me.

So in a similar situation, Brees was benched, and is now playing better.

People forget benching Josh doesn't mean we give up on him for good, it just means he's not getting it done and might learn something. he might say man now I can see what I was missing, and unlike King I have the arm to take advantage of it?

I just think that DG sees something or he wouldn't be suprising you like he is by not benching McCown.

Green has a history of making quick decisions on guys. I guess he feels like he knows what he is doing with Josh.

I think Green is teaching Josh on the fly much more than him being in the league three years would seem to require. I feel he understands some of why Josh hasn't progressed enough like he should and maybe he is cutting him more slack than normal because of it.

This would seem to make the most sense to me. Should you find yourself on a brand new team with a talented but raw QB who so far has not learned things the way you would teach them it would explain him being more patient with the guy.

This will wear off soon enough because at some point Josh will not progress enough to satisfy DG and he'll make the change.

I am for the best situation for the team. In hindsight drafting Big Ben would have been that and we didn't. DG isn't infallible but he isn't stupid either.

If Josh does any more running like he did at the end of that game to keep the go ahead scoring drive alive he isn't going to make it much longer anyway.

 

[Russ Smith]

I just think that DG sees something or he wouldn't be suprising you like he is by not benching McCown.

.

So here's some questions. Why did Green draft Fitz? Why did Green hire Solomon and Hargrave?

And yes I think Solomon is doing a great job and Fitz is going to be a great player but that's not what I'm asking.

Maybe he really does think Josh is the guy, maybe he just doesn't want to admit he's not the guy?

 

[Chaz]

Maybe he really does think Josh is the guy, maybe he just doesn't want to admit he's not the guy?

Maybe he doesn't know if he can be the guy yet and needs more time to decide?

 

[conraddobler]

So here's some questions. Why did Green draft Fitz? Why did Green hire Solomon and Hargrave?

And yes I think Solomon is doing a great job and Fitz is going to be a great player but that's not what I'm asking.

Maybe he really does think Josh is the guy, maybe he just doesn't want to admit he's not the guy?

The last two games were played in pretty hefty wind. It wasn't like either QB did well going into the wind.

I don't think Josh has any idea how to throw into it.

Before everyone jumps on that as an excuse I am more than aware he has to learn how to throw into it eventually and not every game we have played has had wind.

I really wish we had a QB that removed all doubt but then we'd probably be relegated to arguing over the fullbacks dive blocking ability or the third string ball boys football wiping technique.

Navarre looks like a possiblity to me more than most would expect. I think you could argue he would do better than Josh or King even though he's brand new. I'd play him if the season got out of hand just to see what he has.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

once again - Brees showed immediately when he came in - leading the Chargers to a 7-2 record - that he might really be able to play in this league - that is a huge difference between him and Josh at this point.

I wouldn't really have all that many problems with Josh if he at least ONE huge game amongst all these stinkers (against someone other than a Niners team who's only victory is against us). THat's my biggest fear - usually a guy who is still trying to get at least puts it all together for a couple games during a really bad stretch - and we haven't seen that from Josh which is what worries me so much. Damnit - I got sucked into this pointless debate!

I can't help myself either. Look, going through the thread, it has gone from analogies from computers to cars, to comparing him to Drew Brees. You can pick 100 quarterbacks from similar situations that became successful, and the same amount that failed. I judge Josh based on every start that I have seen. In these starts he really hasn't showed me that much, beyond the fact that he is tough, and has good measurables. He plays hard, but his pocket presence is crap. He has shown little improvement as well from last year. I am still waiting for that breakout game where he shows signs of something. Sure there are 100 excuses about why he has played poorly to this point; but the fact of the matter is, when he has had time, he has been very poor at finding the open reciever first, and then hitting them. The cold hard fact is that the Quarterback is the leader of the offense, and if it ain't working, he usually gets the boot, that's just the nature of the game. WE ARE 29th IN OFFENSE.
Would I like to see him improve? Hell yeah. Do I get excited over every little semi-competent thing he does? Of course, because a competent QB would make this team a playoff contender in the NFC. LOOK AT THE CRAP AT THE TOP OF THE NFC!!! The freaking falcons are right up there, and they are incredibly mediocre. Can anybody remember the NFC ever being this weak? The best team in the NFC, the Eagles, got embarassed by the Steelers, who showed the total weakness of the Eagles run defense. I never thought we would be in the position to do something this year, but then again, none of us predicted the impact that Pendergast and the combination of Dockett, Dansby, Wilson, Berry, and Darling, among many others would have. We have a dominating defense that loves to be on the field, and an offense that's in a boat with one paddle. (Gotta throw my analogy in ) Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Rats]

How do we know what King woud do or not do? Seems he played one quarter and was something like 5 for 5. Any speculation on what King would do is just that "speculation". He may be worse than worse or better than good. None of it seems to matter as it seems Green is going the distance with him no matter how he plays.

John, I think that DG can discern which QB is getting it done in practice every week. King was brought here to be a servicable backup which he is. I know this distresses some here that Dennis Green is in charge but I think the majority will take his track record with QBs and his winning record. I don't see the flamers that didn't like the Denny hiring piping up much these days about that.You know who you are so I won't point you out. All you guys have to complain about is the QB. Give it a rest. We won the freakying game. We have a 2 game streak. The team has a big game on the road this week. Lets talk about that. Ohh but no...all you find interesting is Josh McCown bashing Sorry Denny has disappointed you.

 

[Pariah]

If you listen to Green's answer about Josh it it very clear. Josh is not the entire problem with the offense.

So what if he's not the "entire" problem. He's trying to fix every other part of the problem--why not try to fix the QB?

Bottom line is this: we have a legitimate shot at the playoffs. Our defense has gotten us to this point. Our offense has cost us at least one game, maybe more. It's not a good offense right now despite having one of the best WR corps in the league. Is the o-line contributing to the problems in the passing game? Certainly, but McCown doesn't seem to be making the right reads when things break down. Even when he does have time, he seems to miss the mark more than other QBs do.

Green is trying to fix the line. He should try to fix the other things, too.

 

[Pariah]

Ohh but no...all you find interesting is Josh McCown bashing Sorry Denny has disappointed you.

We're 4-5. That's good enough for you? Or, would you rather see the team get better?

Me? I'd like to see us do better than than we're doing. Loved the win, but our offense needs to contribute. We're not going to beat many teams with the production we're getting form the quarterback position no matter how good the defense is.

 

[conraddobler]

So here's some questions. Why did Green draft Fitz? Why did Green hire Solomon and Hargrave?

And yes I think Solomon is doing a great job and Fitz is going to be a great player but that's not what I'm asking.

Maybe he really does think Josh is the guy, maybe he just doesn't want to admit he's not the guy?

I have no problem admiting that this whole Josh thing is because of Green's convoluted obsession with Fitz.

He needed to deflect those in the organization that would push for a QB so he talked up Josh and was free to choose Fitz.

Me personally I would have tried like heck to pull off something like the Bucs did when they drafted a couple of first rounders at the same time, I think it was Sapp and I forget who else but it was a big deal.

I would have tried for Big Ben and Williams. We would have lost out on Dansby and maybe Dockett too so that dosen't look as attractive given that light but your point is still valid there were other options.

Chances are though if he had done that our record would not be what it is now so going back to me isn't all the helpful but still I understand the logic. He may now be stuck with Josh somewhat because of that Fitz obsession, We will in the end be better off for all of that though IMO.

The best lookback scenario I can think of would be having DG have a Williams not Fitz obsession and then yeah we'd be really set if Josh fails with about any average QB.

Drafting a guy like Big Ben would have been ideal for the future but on this team this year it wouldn't have produced much because he would have thrown to Williams and Bryant the first half of the season.

Who knows he could have begun to doubt himself enough to never be as good as he is now with the Steelers. It's very hard to play what ifs across teams and leagues like that.

 

[Chaz]

So what if he's not the "entire" problem. He's trying to fix every other part of the problem--why not try to fix the QB?

Bottom line is this: we have a legitimate shot at the playoffs. Our defense has gotten us to this point. Our offense has cost us at least one game, maybe more. It's not a good offense right now despite having one of the best WR corps in the league. Is the o-line contributing to the problems in the passing game? Certainly, but McCown doesn't seem to be making the right reads when things break down. Even when he does have time, he seems to miss the mark more than other QBs do.

Green is trying to fix the line. He should try to fix the other things, too.

I am sure he is trying to improve the QB position, by coaching Josh. King is a fall back position not a long term answer and I doubt Navarre is ready yet.

Like I have said I am sure Green is capable of making a sound decision on the quarterback. Frankly I don't think there are many choices right now. Maybe he does regret not drafting a QB or giving the job to Josh but now he doesn't really have any choice but to make the best of it.

Is it so hard for some people to realize that, all things considered, playing McCown may be in the team's best interest right now?

 

[Rats]

We're 4-5. That's good enough for you? Or, would you rather see the team get better?

Me? I'd like to see us do better than than we're doing. Loved the win, but our offense needs to contribute. We're not going to beat many teams with the production we're getting form the quarterback position no matter how good the defense is.

My season prediction, knowing how bad the personel on this team was last year, was 7-9. I felt that DG would coach up players and bring in guys that fit his system. He has done that. I hoped we might steal a win so we could be 8-8( I have money on that record) That would be good enough for me this season. Next year more holes will be filled on this team. We had to look and see if JM has it. Mac should have done it last year. Said then that it was going to cost us not playing him since Mac was lame duck. He has to learn on the job this year and it is slowing down our progress under DG. But we are still several lunchpail guys away on the line to make it matter much who is under center. And for you to say that you would "like to see us doing better than were doing" well at the start of the season I bet you would take where we are now. WE have done good things because of this coaching staff. A real coaching staff that has actually coached up underachieving players. We have beaten 4 teams and lost to another(SF)we should have won with the production from "this QB". IF we reach 7-9 I will grumble but not because it wasn't good enough but because it cost me $200 bucks. I think at 4-5 and still third in the division it is to early to even consider playoff talk for this club. But we have a better team and that is what should be talked about, not the "We could be 6-3 with another QB under center BS" No one knows that if another QB on our roster was under center that we would even be 4-5. We could have many more INT for TD from one of the other QB on the roster. None of us can say we would have more wins. We have to take it a week at a time and stack more wins. And the grasshoppers need to be more patient with the Playoff talk. I think DG said 10-6 before Q went down so I think he knew we needed to overachieve to get to that. Why else would he have backtracked on the record. Either way we should have 65 post long threads about the defense rather than about how sucky the QB is. It is redundent.

 

[Russ Smith]

The last two games were played in pretty hefty wind. It wasn't like either QB did well going into the wind.

I don't think Josh has any idea how to throw into it.

Before everyone jumps on that as an excuse I am more than aware he has to learn how to throw into it eventually and not every game we have played has had wind.

I really wish we had a QB that removed all doubt but then we'd probably be relegated to arguing over the fullbacks dive blocking ability or the third string ball boys football wiping technique.

Navarre looks like a possiblity to me more than most would expect. I think you could argue he would do better than Josh or King even though he's brand new. I'd play him if the season got out of hand just to see what he has.

The point of my question was that you keep saying Green must think Josh is the guy or he wouldn't be playing him because Green doesn't do that.

I was just asking at what level you think that's true, I have no doubt in my mind if Roy Williams dad was a buddy of Green's and Roy had been a Viking ballboy, Roy would be a Cardinal today. I think that if Solomon and Hargrave were not good friends, they wouldn't be on our staff now, and again I think Solomon is doing a great job.

The point is Green DOES have lines he will cross with respect to making all decisions for the good of the team. he will make decisions with his heart just like anybody else does, and with his ego too. What I don't know is where that line is? Will he actually keep a QB in who he knows is not as good as the backup just so he won't have to admit he was wrong about the QB? I don't honestly know, I certainly don't want to think he would, but I'm starting to wonder.

FYI if I get over the top this afternoon please excuse, just had a cortisone shot in my elbow and I'm feeling a little off right now.

 

[conraddobler]

I am sure he is trying to improve the QB position, by coaching Josh. King is a fall back position not a long term answer and I doubt Navarre is ready yet.

Like I have said I am sure Green is capable of making a sound decision on the quarterback. Frankly I don't think there are many choices right now. Maybe he does regret not drafting a QB or giving the job to Josh but now he doesn't really have any choice but to make the best of it.

Is it so hard for some people to realize that, all things considered, playing McCown may be in the team's best interest right now?

I think all things considered you couldn't be more on target with that post.

It isn't about McCown being as good as advertised it's about him being good enough to keep King on the bench, given that King was planned to be on the bench not start.

Beating out a career backup isn't a great endorsement but it's about where we are with the Josh saga right now.

He would not be staving off some hotshot up and commer and sadly we have no one like that to fall back on.

He's about the best hope we have now and as bad as that is, it is what it is and Green is trying to make the best of it right now. Next year all bets are off as to what he will do but right now he has to play the hand he dealt.

 

[Russ Smith]

Is it so hard for some people to realize that, all things considered, playing McCown may be in the team's best interest right now?

Probably not, just explain to us how it is, and don't say because Green says so in your own words explain how Josh is our best option.

 

[conraddobler]

Probably not, just explain to us how it is, and don't say because Green says so in your own words explain how Josh is our best option.

It's easy for me.

Josh is more physically talented, taller, and in short has a ton more upside than King.

King probably is a better QB right now, What King isn't is the QB we hope to have, Josh might or might not be but King is definitely not that QB.

DG is walking a fine line trying to teach a QB how to be a good QB while not losing games in the process. That part is working now it wasn't so well in the earlier part of the season.

Josh would lose his job if he threw more pics, Josh knows this and isn't turning the ball over enough to get benched. He also isn't making enough good plays to keep his job long term. Someday one of the two will give and we will have our decison.

 

[Rats]

Probably not, just explain to us how it is, and don't say because Green says so in your own words explain how Josh is our best option.

Why? So you can take his very own words and turn them around, take them out of context and show anyone but JM should QB. Russ it just isn't that entertaining anymore. Lets go talk about the Defense. Come on Buddy, you know you want to change the subject(subliminal hint...is it working?) So when is the next fishing trip?

 

[Russ Smith]

It's easy for me.

Josh is more physically talented, taller, and in short has a ton more upside than King.

King probably is a better QB right now, What King isn't is the QB we hope to have, Josh might or might not be but King is definitely not that QB.

DG is walking a fine line trying to teach a QB how to be a good QB while not losing games in the process. That part is working now it wasn't so well in the earlier part of the season.

Josh would lose his job if he threw more pics, Josh knows this and isn't turning the ball over enough to get benched. He also isn't making enough good plays to keep his job long term. Someday one of the two will give and we will have our decison.

see that's actually why I asked him. I agree with you, JOsh has more athletic ability, but I THINK King is better right now. And if Josh is really our best option NOW, that wouldn't be true.

If I think Green is grooming Josh for his QB of the future, totally different of course, but I see no evidence he is, we didn't sign him to a new deal before the deadline, we've heard absolutely no Jurecki says we're talking to Josh' agent talk. AS far as we know we're going to give him the tender as required to retain his rights, but we don't know on which level, or if we even want him back.

So if Green is NOT playing for teh future with Josh, then he MUST think Josh is better now? Sounds like you don't, don't know about the others.