Wide Receivers are Frustrated

[Russ Smith]

If Green thought we had a better chance of winning with one of our other QB's he would make the change. Part of his contract is bonus dollars for wins and playoffs. Does anyone think in their mind that Green would let McCown take money from his family? No! There is more to this than meets the eye. Som reason that he sticks with Josh as heis best chance to win.

GBR
40
Beat Carolina

Maybe Fitz is paying the difference out of his signing bonus.

I'm kidding!

Your answer is of course the logical one, again that's why this fascinates me so much. I don't get it, is Josh a great practice player and a lousy game player, is King a lousy practice guy? What does Green see all week that convinces him next Sunday things are going to be better with Josh?

You know what they say about the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results the next time.

 

[conraddobler]

That's precisely what I've been trying to get across, well said.

The thing is while I feel King woudl move the ball better and thus meet the definition of a better QB he might not be if you factor in turnovers.

Josh got pulled once and for what? Turnovers.

King behind this line and with the experience level of our WR might actually cause enough extra turnovers to actually not be the best option.

To believe that DG is doing this out of straight ego you have to believe that he is willing to sacrifice wins now to prove his point and blow a 1 million dollar bonus by being stubborn.

Russ it stretches credibility that a coach with at least a ton of success at actually getting to the playoffs, if not winning in them, would suddenly put all that behind him to prove a point about a QB even though in the past he made some of the same assertions about QB's only to switch them later on without warning.

 

[Russ Smith]

Don't deny I tend to focus on QB but if you look on Sunday and monday you'll see a LOT of posts that have nothing to do with JM, a lot by me that is. You have a habit of only responding to my posts when they are about JM, so while I don't deny I focus on the QB, you focus on it too.
I hear ya, but in my defense I only respond to your every 40th post on Josh McCown. I think we should take your advice really. We should take and just put on a tape of your posts about the QB as you suggest that they should do to DG radio show. That way we could all ignore it as the same old same old and talk more about our Awsome Defense and the play of our DBs. Ohalate and WIlson had really great 2nd and third QTs. Once we went down 14-3 they started stepping into the holes and stopping the running game. It was just amazing to watch. And they seemed to be a step quick breaking to the ball when passes were thrown. Wilsons Allpro at this point. He has really come on( Im telling ya we are going to change the subject to the DEFENSE)If he doesn't get extended I think everyone is going to be pissed. What do you think?

I was kind of mad we resigned Ohalete but I took it back after the way he played Sunday. He looked like a real NFL safety, nearly had 2 picks, made some nice plays.

And yes the key to the game was moving wilson up to the LOS, he took away Barber and made Warner throw to beat us. Much as I used to love to watch Warner play, he's simply lost the nerve to stand in there and beat you, when the pressure turns up, he takes sacks and usually fumbles, nearly did twice Sunday.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He's not an unknown. He's started many games and set all sorts of passing records for another team......and yet, he was put on the bench for another QB. One that Denny Green developed.

I mean, his performance with this team, in this situation is an unknown. Who knows? Maybe he plays much better than McCown, and moves the offense. It is certainly in the realm of possibility.

 

[earthsci]

I mean, his performance with this team, in this situation is an unknown. Who knows? Maybe he plays much better than McCown, and moves the offense. It is certainly in the realm of possibility.

Even after my arguments I will say that I wonder why Denny likes Josh so much. It does seem strange that he won't even try King for a half. That said though, we are a hell of alot better because of Denny Green's judgement.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Even after my arguments I will say that I wonder why Denny likes Josh so much. It does seem strange that he won't even try King for a half. That said though, we are a hell of alot better because of Denny Green's judgement.

I like the first part of this, the second part makes me wonder......Denny's judgements on offense took a group with supposively top five potential, and made it one of the worst offenses in football. I would hate to see a hell of a lot worse....I don't want to hear the excuses about injuries, weather, etc, every team has those.

 

[Russ Smith]

The thing is while I feel King woudl move the ball better and thus meet the definition of a better QB he might not be if you factor in turnovers.

Josh got pulled once and for what? Turnovers.

King behind this line and with the experience level of our WR might actually cause enough extra turnovers to actually not be the best option.

To believe that DG is doing this out of straight ego you have to believe that he is willing to sacrifice wins now to prove his point and blow a 1 million dollar bonus by being stubborn.

Russ it stretches credibility that a coach with at least a ton of success at actually getting to the playoffs, if not winning in them, would suddenly put all that behind him to prove a point about a QB even though in the past he made some of the same assertions about QB's only to switch them later on without warning.

King played extensively 2 years in Tampa, with crap WR's and threw 25 td's 17 picks, that's in 21 starts. Josh has 12 starts and 11 TD's, 12 picks. he's also fumbled 18 times in his short NFL career, King 8. I think if turnovers are your concern, you're worrying about the wrong guy turning it over.

Again, it defies logic that Green is playing Josh to make a point, I agree with you, that's why it fascinates me so much because to me that seems the more bizarre explanation, but I'm starting to think it's the accurate one as dumb as that probably sounds.

What's the specifics on Green's bonus, make the playoffs, win a game, get to the superbowl I don't honestly remember.

 

[conraddobler]

Even after my arguments I will say that I wonder why Denny likes Josh so much. It does seem strange that he won't even try King for a half. That said though, we are a hell of alot better because of Denny Green's judgement.

I'd have to say the same thing.

It is puzzling and while I enjoy discussing this sometimes at others DG has me scratching my head just like the rest of us.

I wouldn't even mind having King play some, I don't think it could hurt or that it would be completely unjustified based on how JM has played.

DG is strange to say the least so using him to shield yourself on a QB would get frustrating and I understand Russ wanting people to answer on their own.

DG has never won a Superbowl and as such is still more open to critic than someone like Bill Walsh having faith in a QB or something.

 

[conraddobler]

King played extensively 2 years in Tampa, with crap WR's and threw 25 td's 17 picks, that's in 21 starts. Josh has 12 starts and 11 TD's, 12 picks. he's also fumbled 18 times in his short NFL career, King 8. I think if turnovers are your concern, you're worrying about the wrong guy turning it over.

Again, it defies logic that Green is playing Josh to make a point, I agree with you, that's why it fascinates me so much because to me that seems the more bizarre explanation, but I'm starting to think it's the accurate one as dumb as that probably sounds.

What's the specifics on Green's bonus, make the playoffs, win a game, get to the superbowl I don't honestly remember.

I am pretty sure he gets 1 million for just making the playoffs.

Maybe King made a pass at Green's wife or was caught drawing goofy pictures of DG.

I'm puzzled too sometimes.

 

[conraddobler]

King played extensively 2 years in Tampa, with crap WR's and threw 25 td's 17 picks, that's in 21 starts. Josh has 12 starts and 11 TD's, 12 picks. he's also fumbled 18 times in his short NFL career, King 8. I think if turnovers are your concern, you're worrying about the wrong guy turning it over.

Again, it defies logic that Green is playing Josh to make a point, I agree with you, that's why it fascinates me so much because to me that seems the more bizarre explanation, but I'm starting to think it's the accurate one as dumb as that probably sounds.

What's the specifics on Green's bonus, make the playoffs, win a game, get to the superbowl I don't honestly remember.

The only realistic possibility I see here is that possibly just possibly Boldin and others have lobbied for King and that DG is simply exerting his control by denying them that.

DG can be like that and while I hate that type of thing and don't like DG because of that type of thing, to me that one thing makes the most sense if you believe, as you do that logically we should be playing King.

 

[Pariah]

King behind this line and with the experience level of our WR might actually cause enough extra turnovers to actually not be the best option.

King isn't much of an INT monster. He's got a 26:20 lifetime ratio, 18:13 in the full season he started.

 

[conraddobler]

King isn't much of an INT monster. He's got a 26:20 lifetime ratio, 18:13 in the full season he started.

I'd say your right on that one.

Honestly see above as the only really logical explanation I have come up with for why DG sticks so hard with JM.

I think JM has the best upside of the two, opinions on that can differ but even I would tend to believe King would do better right now.

 

[Russ Smith]

I am pretty sure he gets 1 million for just making the playoffs.

Maybe King made a pass at Green's wife or was caught drawing goofy pictures of DG.

I'm puzzled too sometimes.

Supposedly Gruden really dislikes King, never been told why but supposedly he openly badmouthed King on his way out of Tampa, and badmouthed him to others. I've asked but nobody seems to know why. King says he reported to camp his 2nd year unprepared physically or mentally, he admits this. That was under Dungy, next year they bring in Johnson, King barely plays and then the following year Gruden, Super bowl.

So the good and bad stuff happened under Dungy who is a Green disciple and I would assume had something to do with Green signing him. Presumably Green heard the stuff from Gruden, and still signed him.

King by most accounts is a great guy, has a foundation for underprivileged kids in Florida, talks about running for mayor someday. He doesn't strike me as a Jeff Blake guy that annoys people so they get rid of him. Knowing Gruden as I do from his raider days i know he had ISSUES with lots of players, and does now in Tampa. I guess I'm saying that Jon Gruden doesn't like King doesn't concern me in the least.

But apparently Green doesn't think much of him either which puzzles me.

 

[earthsci]

King isn't much of an INT monster. He's got a 26:20 lifetime ratio, 18:13 in the full season he started.

Jeff Blake wasn't that bad until he played for us either.

 

[conraddobler]

Supposedly Gruden really dislikes King, never been told why but supposedly he openly badmouthed King on his way out of Tampa, and badmouthed him to others. I've asked but nobody seems to know why. King says he reported to camp his 2nd year unprepared physically or mentally, he admits this. That was under Dungy, next year they bring in Johnson, King barely plays and then the following year Gruden, Super bowl.

So the good and bad stuff happened under Dungy who is a Green disciple and I would assume had something to do with Green signing him. Presumably Green heard the stuff from Gruden, and still signed him.

King by most accounts is a great guy, has a foundation for underprivileged kids in Florida, talks about running for mayor someday. He doesn't strike me as a Jeff Blake guy that annoys people so they get rid of him. Knowing Gruden as I do from his raider days i know he had ISSUES with lots of players, and does now in Tampa. I guess I'm saying that Jon Gruden doesn't like King doesn't concern me in the least.

But apparently Green doesn't think much of him either which puzzles me.

Gruden not liking a player isn't that much of a concern to me either. He's a good coach that tends to mouth off about almost everything to the point of ridiculousness.

He's a media ham of gigantic levels. Why he hated King who knows? Why did Sullivan hate Kasper?

Who knows it can be just a personal thing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jeff Blake wasn't that bad until he played for us either.

Jeff Blake played for arguably the MOST inept offensive coordinator of all time with complete untested WRs though - there's a difference here.

 

[Pariah]

Jeff Blake wasn't that bad until he played for us either.

Come on, Earthsci. Green's past is applicable here in Arizona, but King's isn't?

 

[Rats]

I like the first part of this, the second part makes me wonder......Denny's judgements on offense took a group with supposively top five potential, and made it one of the worst offenses in football. I would hate to see a hell of a lot worse....I don't want to hear the excuses about injuries, weather, etc, every team has those.

Well all you have to do is look at the Vikings without Moss and see that there has to be serious playmaking ability to really make the DG offense go. Q needs to get his timing and JM and Fitz need to get on the same page. Williams needs to stop dropping passes and Johnson needs to keep improving every week. Dennys judgements are just fine IMO. What has the superior offense for the Vikings done since Moss went out. BUTKIS. And if I missed your point I apologize.

 

[earthsci]

Jeff Blake played for arguably the MOST inept offensive coordinator of all time with complete untested WRs though - there's a difference here.

True but I'm afraid that doesn't work for my arguement.

 

[earthsci]

Come on, Earthsci. Green's past is applicable here in Arizona, but King's isn't?

I don't get it. I got me Aryzona book lernin'.

 

[earthsci]

Please clarify that Pariah.

 

[earthsci]

If you mean what I think, why did King get sat for so many years?

 

[Russ Smith]

Jeff Blake wasn't that bad until he played for us either.

Blake didn't get to play for Dennis Green though, he got to play for first time OC Jerry Sullivan, who's now back at WR coach on probably the worst offensive team in football.

Said it a million times, if Josh had been the starter at the beginning of the year LAST year, we wouldn't even be having this debate because Josh would have been the guy having to deal with plays not called in time, Wr's lined up incorrectly, no defense, and an OC who didn't want the job and made it perfectly clear he wasn't qualified for it.

If Josh had started the first 10-12 games like Blake did, people would have written him off last year. That was as bad a situation for a QB as we've had, the only good thing going was Quan.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well all you have to do is look at the Vikings without Moss and see that there has to be serious playmaking ability to really make the DG offense go. Q needs to get his timing and JM and Fitz need to get on the same page. Williams needs to stop dropping passes and Johnson needs to keep improving every week. Dennys judgements are just fine IMO. What has the superior offense for the Vikings done since Moss went out. BUTKIS. And if I missed your point I apologize.

Um - didn't they score 28 points and 31 points in the last two games and didn't they continue to put up points against the Saints to the tune of like 38 when Moss went down in that game in the 2nd quarter?

That team isn't losing because their offense stinks now that Moss is out - that team is losing because once again THEIR DEFENSE STINKS - not sure what point you were trying to make here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

True but I'm afraid that doesn't work for my arguement.

touche.