Wide Receivers are Frustrated

[Chaz]

Probably not, just explain to us how it is, and don't say because Green says so in your own words explain how Josh is our best option.

Well I don't have inside info on how things grade out on Monday but it seems pretty clear that Josh is good enough to keep King on the bench like Conrad said.

Growing pains.....
Some people seem to have reached a conclusion about McCown. A conclusion I don't think they have enough information to make. I am not sure Green has reached a conclusion about McCown. Considering the overall youth, lack of winning experience on the team, and the lack of turnovers by McCown I am more than willing to keep giving him chances, possibly for the rest of the season even if it costs us the playoffs this year.

I still think it is very possible that Josh can be a good NFL QB despite my disappointment over his play this year. I get frustrated watching McCown play bad and make mistakes too but I am willing to be patient if Green keeps running him out there this year. Like most everyone I am hoping to see some real improvement each week. Of course I am a patient person, maybe too much so at times.

 

[Russ Smith]

Why? So you can take his very own words and turn them around, take them out of context and show anyone but JM should QB. Russ it just isn't that entertaining anymore. Lets go talk about the Defense. Come on Buddy, you know you want to change the subject(subliminal hint...is it working?) So when is the next fishing trip?

See my response to Conrad. I want to see do the people saying Green knows best he must think it's our best chance do they REALLY agree, or are they just taking Green's word for it. Conrad has made it clear he trusts Greens opinion more than his own, I have no problem with that, the guy is a PROVEN NFL coach, none of us are.

I just want to see what some of the play Josh guys OWN opinions is. Conrad just stated he thinks King is probably better now but long term Josh has the upside. What do you think?

I love the defense, I think Pendergast has been a godsend, love Berry, think Solomon is working wonders with the secondary, love Dansby, Dockett, think Deek Pollard is the anti Joe Greene.

All that said I still say with a better passing game this team would have 1-2 more wins. I really think we ought to at least find out if we could get that by simply changing QB's?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

So what if he's not the "entire" problem. He's trying to fix every other part of the problem--why not try to fix the QB?

Bottom line is this: we have a legitimate shot at the playoffs. Our defense has gotten us to this point. Our offense has cost us at least one game, maybe more. It's not a good offense right now despite having one of the best WR corps in the league. Is the o-line contributing to the problems in the passing game? Certainly, but McCown doesn't seem to be making the right reads when things break down. Even when he does have time, he seems to miss the mark more than other QBs do.

Green is trying to fix the line. He should try to fix the other things, too.

Excellent post.

 

[StatsAmare]

Geez by reading all these Josh comments one would think we lost the game and DG was a blithering idiot because he refuses to sit Josh.

Not a blithering idiot, just stubborn.

 

[conraddobler]

see that's actually why I asked him. I agree with you, JOsh has more athletic ability, but I THINK King is better right now. And if Josh is really our best option NOW, that wouldn't be true.

If I think Green is grooming Josh for his QB of the future, totally different of course, but I see no evidence he is, we didn't sign him to a new deal before the deadline, we've heard absolutely no Jurecki says we're talking to Josh' agent talk. AS far as we know we're going to give him the tender as required to retain his rights, but we don't know on which level, or if we even want him back.

So if Green is NOT playing for teh future with Josh, then he MUST think Josh is better now? Sounds like you don't, don't know about the others.

I think that a lot of people on here would be suprised to know how little Green actually supports Josh.

I think he would change out Josh in a heartbeat, I think that Josh was a means to an end to get Fitz and he already served that purpose.

I think that Josh will get a few more games to win back his job for next year or at least make himself in the running for it.

I also think Green is torn on Josh and knows what kind of ability he has and that he is just riding out the learning curve to see if the light comes on but might be about ready to decide it's not going to come on.

I think that we are trying to fine tune the arguement over when to give up on Josh a little to much. Green dosen't have to do anything while he is winning now. He simply sits back and watches Josh for signs one way or another.

Josh is a bit of an enigma. He dosen't do anything flashy, other than win a few games in flashy fashion but that was admitedly after stinking it up in those same games.

He dosen't flash as much as any of us would like but a comment on here struck me as to why some still might be waiting to see on him. He does seem about a half second slow on reads. Maybe they are just picturing him actually making those on time and waiting to see.

I really think that DG will banish Josh easier than any think that are worried about it, I just don't think DG feels he has to do that now.

Josh probably kept his job early on because he had more good will then, now if the team lost like that without the weather as an excuse Green would sit him.

It's an evolving thing that is probably headed in the direction you would like it's just not heading there fast enough for some.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well I don't have inside info on how things grade out on Monday but it seems pretty clear that Josh is good enough to keep King on the bench like Conrad said.

Growing pains.....
Some people seem to have reached a conclusion about McCown. A conclusion I don't think they have enough information to make. I am not sure Green has reached a conclusion about McCown. Considering the overall youth, lack of winning experience on the team, and the lack of turnovers by McCown I am more than willing to keep giving him chances, possibly for the rest of the season even if it costs us the playoffs this year.

I still think it is very possible that Josh can be a good NFL QB despite my disappointment over his play this year. I get frustrated watching McCown play bad and make mistakes too but I am willing to be patient if Green keeps running him out there this year. Like most everyone I am hoping to see some real improvement each week. Of course I am a patient person, maybe too much so at times.

With all due respect, was there an actual answer in that?

You basically said because Green says so.

I want to know YOUR opinion, who do you think is the better QB today because that's what really matters when talking about giving the team the best chance to win NOW. Not who has the higher ceiling or who you think might ultimately be better, if you were the coach who would you think gives you the best chance to win Sunday assuming they had the whole week of practice as the starter?

I know if my financial well being depended on it, I'd choose King not Josh.

And again, I'm NOT a big King fan, I just think I'd rather play a guy who knows what to do but may not always have the arm to do it, over a guy who has the arm to do it, but has no idea what to do. I thought Green could teach him what to do but so far that's not working out.

 

[Rats]

See my response to Conrad. I want to see do the people saying Green knows best he must think it's our best chance do they REALLY agree, or are they just taking Green's word for it. Conrad has made it clear he trusts Greens opinion more than his own, I have no problem with that, the guy is a PROVEN NFL coach, none of us are.

I just want to see what some of the play Josh guys OWN opinions is. Conrad just stated he thinks King is probably better now but long term Josh has the upside. What do you think?

I love the defense, I think Pendergast has been a godsend, love Berry, think Solomon is working wonders with the secondary, love Dansby, Dockett, think Deek Pollard is the anti Joe Greene.

All that said I still say with a better passing game this team would have 1-2 more wins. I really think we ought to at least find out if we could get that by simply changing QB's?

What do I think? I think we have had this same question answered 7 different times in 7 different languages, by 70 different opinions. Yes we trust DG. Yes, we do not know as much about the game as he does. If he thinks JM is a better fit then I would say it is because he has not cost us games. We would have another win if not for the collapse in SF and the fumball in ATL. Better passing would not have givin those wins to us. Less mistakes would have. JM has made less mistakes than I believe King or Navarre would have. Thats it. And thanks for at least thinking about the Defense...Berry is a stud and Dansby is really turning it on for a rookie. The entire DLINe has really played huge and Deke in there face made them step back and look in the mirror. Everyone but Davis who is just a big disappoinment. But maybe we can take his Dollars next year and give them to Quan or a curses on me for saying it a FA QB

 

[Chaz]

With all due respect, was there an actual answer in that?

Yep because Green says so is a big part of it.

Josh clearly has more upside in that we don't really know what we have in Josh. I think King has played enough to have a good idea of where his ceiling is.

At the start of the year Josh was given an opportunity. I think a fair opportunity is at least 3/4 of the season, 12 games. So far I have seen nothing that would cause me to pull the plug on Josh at this point given the current alternatives.

Same goes for Green. To me he has two years to get some results with this team. So far I have not seen anything that would make me give up on Green and his decisions either.

My answer is simple. Now is not the time to panic, now is the time to stay the course.

 

[chickenhead]

I've been a defender of McCown--actually, not of McCown, but of patience--for most of this year, and I still am. However, I have also come to a point where I want to see King play, and soon. If we're going to debate about who should start at Carolina, I'd probably lean towards Josh. If we're debating who should start next season, I'd hope for an improvement. I'd like to see King at least play a quarter soon.

As far as drafting Fitz goes, I still think it can pan out well. Within a couple of years he and Boldin will become the proverbial 3rd year WRs. We can find someone to throw to them. Add a solid 1000 yard rusher, and suddenly we have a great situation, regardless at how it was arrived.

 

[SECTION 11]

now is the time to stay the course.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You didn't!!?!?!?!?

 

[Chaz]

NNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You didn't!!?!?!?!?

arghhhhhh

attack of the cliche!!!!

 

[Russ Smith]

Yep because Green says so is a big part of it.

Josh clearly has more upside in that we don't really know what we have in Josh. I think King has played enough to have a good idea of where his ceiling is.

At the start of the year Josh was given an opportunity. I think a fair opportunity is at least 3/4 of the season, 12 games. So far I have seen nothing that would cause me to pull the plug on Josh at this point given the current alternatives.

Same goes for Green. To me he has two years to get some results with this team. So far I have not seen anything that would make me give up on Green and his decisions either.

My answer is simple. Now is not the time to panic, now is the time to stay the course.

fair enough , we all have the right to our opinion.

 

[Pariah]

I am sure he is trying to improve the QB position, by coaching Josh. King is a fall back position not a long term answer and I doubt Navarre is ready yet.

Green's been "coaching him up" for a while now and I've seen zero improvement.

The Cardinals need to stop thinking only in the "long term"--that's what the old cardinals needed to do because they had no shot at winning in the short term. This cardinal team can win today and I have a very, very hard time believing that Josh gives us the best chance to do that.

Let him learn on the bench like the rest of the QBs in the league that have someone better in front of them.

 

[Russ Smith]

What do I think? I think we have had this same question answered 7 different times in 7 different languages, by 70 different opinions. Yes we trust DG. Yes, we do not know as much about the game as he does. If he thinks JM is a better fit then I would say it is because he has not cost us games. We would have another win if not for the collapse in SF and the fumball in ATL. Better passing would not have givin those wins to us. Less mistakes would have. JM has made less mistakes than I believe King or Navarre would have. Thats it. And thanks for at least thinking about the Defense...Berry is a stud and Dansby is really turning it on for a rookie. The entire DLINe has really played huge and Deke in there face made them step back and look in the mirror. Everyone but Davis who is just a big disappoinment. But maybe we can take his Dollars next year and give them to Quan or a curses on me for saying it a FA QB

Don't deny I tend to focus on QB but if you look on Sunday and monday you'll see a LOT of posts that have nothing to do with JM, a lot by me that is. You have a habit of only responding to my posts when they are about JM, so while I don't deny I focus on the QB, you focus on it too.

All I'm saying is what would really tick me off is in week 16, Josh gets hit hard against Seattle and has to come out of a game we trail. In comes Shaun King and rallies the team to a come from behind win. Next week King starts at home and beats Tampa Bay, walks off the field smiling ear to ear at Jon Gruden with a big "I told you so" look on his face as Gruden looks for a camera so he can make his famous faces in retaliation. and we finish the year 8-8 one game out of the playoffs.

Sure 8-8 would be great, but I gotta admit it would be HORRIBLE for us to find out too late that playing King really would make us better. Now by the same token if King gets a start where he has a week of prep, goes out, and bombs like his 7-26 MNF game as a Buc, I'll be ready to admit hey I was wrong, DG was right, start Josh.

My disappointment with josh is really too much faith in DG, not the other way around. I never thought Josh was the guy until we hired Green, then I felt hey he's made so many guys look good he can do it for Josh too, I think I was wrong.

 

[conraddobler]

arghhhhhh

attack of the cliche!!!!

Being a QB is hard work..... It's hard work.

You can't flip flop with your QB's everyone knows that.

I know how other teams think and changing out your QB sends mixed messages. You can't send out mixed messages.

 

[earthsci]

This cardinal team can win today and I have a very, very hard time believing that Josh gives us the best chance to do that.

Let him learn on the bench like the rest of the QBs in the league that have someone better in front of them.

Two things Pariah.

1. We've won 3 out of our last 4 games. I call that winning today.

2. I'm not real confident that there is anyone better on the team. Why? Yes, because Denny feels that way. I have a hell of alot more confidence in what he decides than you, Russ or This_Guy.

 

[conraddobler]

Don't deny I tend to focus on QB but if you look on Sunday and monday you'll see a LOT of posts that have nothing to do with JM, a lot by me that is. You have a habit of only responding to my posts when they are about JM, so while I don't deny I focus on the QB, you focus on it too.

All I'm saying is what would really tick me off is in week 16, Josh gets hit hard against Seattle and has to come out of a game we trail. In comes Shaun King and rallies the team to a come from behind win. Next week King starts at home and beats Tampa Bay, walks off the field smiling ear to ear at Jon Gruden with a big "I told you so" look on his face as Gruden looks for a camera so he can make his famous faces in retaliation. and we finish the year 8-8 one game out of the playoffs.

Sure 8-8 would be great, but I gotta admit it would be HORRIBLE for us to find out too late that playing King really would make us better. Now by the same token if King gets a start where he has a week of prep, goes out, and bombs like his 7-26 MNF game as a Buc, I'll be ready to admit hey I was wrong, DG was right, start Josh.

My disappointment with josh is really too much faith in DG, not the other way around. I never thought Josh was the guy until we hired Green, then I felt hey he's made so many guys look good he can do it for Josh too, I think I was wrong.

The one thing you leave out there Russ is that Green made those guys look good with mostly a stable offense around them. I think all some are saying is that judging Josh when he has a completely shuffled Oline an aging RB and his best most experienced WR was gone half a year isn't the same as DG plugging in a new QB to throw to Moss Carter and Reed every year.

I think DG even realizes this and that is part of why he cuts JM slack. BTW thanks for the JM abreviation. It stinks typing that out all the time.

 

[seesred]

If Green thought we had a better chance of winning with one of our other QB's he would make the change. Part of his contract is bonus dollars for wins and playoffs. Does anyone think in their mind that Green would let McCown take money from his family? No! There is more to this than meets the eye. Som reason that he sticks with Josh as heis best chance to win.

GBR
40
Beat Carolina

 

[Russ Smith]

Green's been "coaching him up" for a while now and I've seen zero improvement.

The Cardinals need to stop thinking only in the "long term"--that's what the old cardinals needed to do because they had no shot at winning in the short term. This cardinal team can win today and I have a very, very hard time believing that Josh gives us the best chance to do that.

Let him learn on the bench like the rest of the QBs in the league that have someone better in front of them.

That's precisely what I've been trying to get across, well said.

 

[conraddobler]

If Green thought we had a better chance of winning with one of our other QB's he would make the change. Part of his contract is bonus dollars for wins and playoffs. Does anyone think in their mind that Green would let McCown take money from his family? No! There is more to this than meets the eye. Som reason that he sticks with Josh as heis best chance to win.

GBR
40
Beat Carolina

Well put

Ego is one thing, $ are another and in my case ego loses almost every time.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Two things Pariah.

1. We've won 3 out of our last 4 games. I call that winning today.

2. I'm not real confident that there is anyone better on the team. Why? Yes, because Denny feels that way. I have a hell of alot more confidence in what he decides than you, Russ or This_Guy.

Sure, we've won 3 out of our last 4 games. Our offense has been terrible in each of those games. We've won despite our offense, not because of them. If this team has any dream of the playoffs, we can't expect the defense to bail out the offense every week.

Your second comment is an appeal to authority, which is often a poor choice. Coaches and people in leadership positions make mistakes all the time, I am not saying neccesarily whether that is the case here or not, but perhaps Denny is wrong with Josh. His last three "performances" certainly haven't helped him. Shaun King is an unknown here, but there is a chance he plays better than McCown, maybe a good chance. Our offense can't be much worse. We are ranked 29th right now. If he stinks, bring back McCown. It seems at least worth the effort. It's not like Josh's play has exonerated him from any blame for the offense's terrible performance.

 

[Russ Smith]

The one thing you leave out there Russ is that Green made those guys look good with mostly a stable offense around them. I think all some are saying is that judging Josh when he has a completely shuffled Oline an aging RB and his best most experienced WR was gone half a year isn't the same as DG plugging in a new QB to throw to Moss Carter and Reed every year.

I think DG even realizes this and that is part of why he cuts JM slack. BTW thanks for the JM abreviation. It stinks typing that out all the time.

agreed, but the fact is that's the hand Josh has been dealt, and he's doing nothing to make it any better than it is, personally I think he's making it worse because he's so bad against the blitz, that's all we see.

 

[Rats]

Don't deny I tend to focus on QB but if you look on Sunday and monday you'll see a LOT of posts that have nothing to do with JM, a lot by me that is. You have a habit of only responding to my posts when they are about JM, so while I don't deny I focus on the QB, you focus on it too.
I hear ya, but in my defense I only respond to your every 40th post on Josh McCown. I think we should take your advice really. We should take and just put on a tape of your posts about the QB as you suggest that they should do to DG radio show. That way we could all ignore it as the same old same old and talk more about our Awsome Defense and the play of our DBs. Ohalate and WIlson had really great 2nd and third QTs. Once we went down 14-3 they started stepping into the holes and stopping the running game. It was just amazing to watch. And they seemed to be a step quick breaking to the ball when passes were thrown. Wilsons Allpro at this point. He has really come on( Im telling ya we are going to change the subject to the DEFENSE)If he doesn't get extended I think everyone is going to be pissed. What do you think?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The one thing you leave out there Russ is that Green made those guys look good with mostly a stable offense around them. I think all some are saying is that judging Josh when he has a completely shuffled Oline an aging RB and his best most experienced WR was gone half a year isn't the same as DG plugging in a new QB to throw to Moss Carter and Reed every year.

I think DG even realizes this and that is part of why he cuts JM slack. BTW thanks for the JM abreviation. It stinks typing that out all the time.

Every week it is a new excuse, the o-line, the weather, the lack of recievers, the zodiac calendar.....fine, I'll take those into consideration. What ultimately sours me on McCown, is the fact that he has had time in a few situations in every game. In those opportunties, he has often not seen open recievers, and even worse, thrown poor passes. Those things, beyond the fact that I have seen little progression throughout this season, make me think it is worth it to give King a chance. Hell, even throw Navarre in there, he appears to be far more accurate, and have more zip on his ball.

 

[earthsci]

Shaun King is an unknown here, but there is a chance he plays better than McCown, maybe a good chance.

He's not an unknown. He's started many games and set all sorts of passing records for another team......and yet, he was put on the bench for another QB. One that Denny Green developed.