Will Amare play before the end of the playoffs?

[pokerface]

From what I can tell, the problem for Amare wasn't the microfacture knee but the other one - which is why the original estimates were off.

I'll clue you in on something....Many in the medical field will tell you that this was not a surprising development. Many times when one knee needs the procedure the other one gets problems which results in another microfracture being necessary.

Their "original estimates" recovery time was a total sham meant to sell more season tickets. No one and I mean NO ONE comes back in four months or even close to. A regular every day non-athlete "might" feel normal in 4-6 months but a proathlete needs 9 months to a 1-1/2 years to comeback to "almost" 100% level.

I blow my nose on their "original estimates"....pffft. There are many potential complications and setbacks to that procedure. Granted Amare had a "minor defect" but it was still a full procedure that was done with all the recovery baggage that comes with it.

 

[elindholm]

Their "original estimates" recovery time was a total sham meant to sell more season tickets. No one and I mean NO ONE comes back in four months or even close to.

The announcement may have been designed to sell tickets, but in fact someone posted here an article from a medical journal that supported the four-month estimate.

 

[pokerface]

Their "original estimates" recovery time was a total sham meant to sell more season tickets. No one and I mean NO ONE comes back in four months or even close to.

The announcement may have been designed to sell tickets, but in fact someone posted here an article from a medical journal that supported the four-month estimate.

Was the article something that covered pro-athletes that like to jump out of the building? Or was it talking about the average joe that just wants to walk around his living room?

How many NBA players have comeback under a year and even resembled their former selves? And for any potential player you name that might have done it there are probably half a dozen I could name off the top of my head that needed a full year or better.

 

[outofcontrol]

We all have "opinions" here and I'm certainly not an expert on sports or sports medicine, I just have an opinion. I'm sorry if I neglected to recognize Dr. Pokerface's expert credentials.

 

[elindholm]

Was the article something that covered pro-athletes that like to jump out of the building?

It was a study of several "elite" athletes, but it didn't define the term beyond that. I think they had something like 27 patients. Probably they were mainly NCAA guys or something like that.

How many NBA players have comeback under a year and even resembled their former selves?

As has been discussed abundantly on this board -- I thought -- and was also supported by the article, lesions of smaller than 1 cm^2 have a quicker recovery period.

 

[pokerface]

Was the article something that covered pro-athletes that like to jump out of the building?

It was a study of several "elite" athletes, but it didn't define the term beyond that. I think they had something like 27 patients. Probably they were mainly NCAA guys or something like that.

How many NBA players have comeback under a year and even resembled their former selves?

As has been discussed abundantly on this board -- I thought -- and was also supported by the article, lesions of smaller than 1 cm^2 have a quicker recovery period.

Elindholm, the size of the lesion has little to do with the recovery time....it only has a bearing on the future prognosis on the longevity/quality of the knee involved. They never said they did a "partial microfracture" on Amare. It was a full procedure that was done which requires standard timeframes for pro-athletes. Longer for Amare because he uses more hops in his game.

Dont take it for granted that Amare will be even near 100% at the start of next season. I'd say it will be closer to 80-85% by then....

 

[elindholm]

Elindholm, the size of the lesion has little to do with the recovery time....

The authors of the article disagree. Take it up with them. I have no opinion on the matter beyond what I've read.

They never said they did a "partial microfracture" on Amare. It was a full procedure that was done which requires standard timeframes for pro-athletes.

Yes, I understand that. What you may not understand is that the microfracture itself heals fairly quickly and isn't the cause of future problems. The tiny holes drilled into the bone aren't the issue. The question is how well the pseudo-cartilage does its job. The stresses on that new tissue are less when the lesion is less.

Dont take it for granted that Amare will be even near 100% at the start of next season.

I'm not, of course. I'm in no way taking to for granted that he will be near 100% ever again, which is why this playoff run, if it manages to go one more round, has such urgency associated with it.

 

[pokerface]

I'm just going to say the Suns outright lied about recovery expectations and leave it at that. If you guys want to believe slanted articles instead of proven results and what you're seeing then hey...drink the kool-aid by all means.


Far as Amare playing right now...why not. He's shown he could be a factor in a game or two which could mean the difference between a championship or not. No one has ever established what the "risks" are with Amare playing before he's 100%. No one has ever stated potential negative effects....just blind fears about it. But then again his early return did have a bearing on his other "good" knee.....

 

[elindholm]

If you guys want to believe slanted articles instead of proven results and what you're seeing then hey...drink the kool-aid by all means.

Do you even understand what science is? The article wasn't "slanted." You can say that my interpretation of it is (which it isn't), but a scientific article isn't "slanted" -- it's just a study and a result.

 

[pokerface]

elindolm what are you quoting from what article? Its not fair for you to defend your views with vague recollections....Was it from a doctors journal or from some Suns media hype? And more importantly....did their time frame hold true?

Now here is what I read from a poster on the board that has some experience in the field....sound credible to me

This is an excellent thread, thanks for postin this Djaughe:

I have worked with people who have had this procedure as I am in the sports medicine field (athletic trainer, like Aaron Nelson and Johnny O). To me 4 months is rushing it - as you can see from Steadman's rehab protocol that weight training, pivoting and cutting are not permitted until 4-6 months. The non weight bearing period of 4-6 weeks will cause severe atrophy of the hip, thigh and calf musculature - so to get that strength back will take in my estimation 2-3 months after weight lifting, running, cutting and jumping are allowed = 6-9 months. That is if (a big if) there are no set backs.

The other thing that is disturbing about these chondral defects is that often they are not associated with another injury or episode of injury (ex. twisting or hyperextending the knee). For some reason these injuries just seem to happen. From my experience, it is frequent that athletes who have one chondral defect on one knee often end up having a similar injury on the other knee. And even more often it seems that the first microfracture procedure does not "fill in" all the way and another prcedure is needed (remember we are not replacing apples with apples, this procedure causes scar tissue to fill in the defect) - everyone reacts differently. This is what happened to Wadsworth and Swann. Harpring has had 2 microfractures already. And yet some athletes come back and play for many years without complication - Rod Woodson, Bruce Smith.

If I were the Suns I would not put that 4 month expectation out there as it is likely IMO, that Amare will not return in that time frame. Why not use the "out for an undetermined time" phrase and if he comes back this year it is gravy.

Either way, good luck Amare - you will be missed by not only Suns fans but all basketball fans.

 

[pokerface]

Common logic will tell you that the more a player relies on athletic ability the more recovery time is needed to fully come back. Amare had almost ZERO lift or bounce in his comeback..and that was after five months of recovery. Where it was one or both knees as the cluprit is almost irrevelant as they both are reliant on each other....one knee supports the other. They are only has strong as the weakest link.

Amares comeback showed that his hops were gone....He looked pathetic in his second game. All the false hope articles in the world didnt hide it either.

 

[elindholm]

elindolm what are you quoting from what article? Its not fair for you to defend your views with vague recollections

I'm sorry that I don't remember, but a search on this board will turn it up. It's also not fair for you to assert your views with no evidence. Thank you for finally posting something with substance.

Was it from a doctors journal or from some Suns media hype?

It was from a medical journal, as I've already said a dozen times.

And more importantly....did their time frame hold true?

What do you mean, did it hold true? It was an observation, not a prediction. It was already true by the time they published it. That's what scientists do.

On to the excerpt you quoted:

I have worked with people who have had this procedure as I am in the sports medicine field (athletic trainer, like Aaron Nelson and Johnny O). To me 4 months is rushing it - as you can see from Steadman's rehab protocol that weight training, pivoting and cutting are not permitted until 4-6 months.

Right. So this particular doctor recommends a slower recovery. Reasonable people with similar training may disagree on such matters. Stoudemire is now seven months since his surgery.

The other thing that is disturbing about these chondral defects is that often they are not associated with another injury or episode of injury (ex. twisting or hyperextending the knee). For some reason these injuries just seem to happen.

As I've posted several times, something else I read estimates the life of a microfracture "repair" to be about five years. I don't have a source for that either, so you are welcome to reject it; in any case, I would guess it's based on a limited sample and is largely conjecture. So you don't need to fill my mind with horror stories about the continued degeneration of Stoudemire's knees -- I'm way ahead of you there.

For the last time, I hope, it's precisely because of Stoudemire's murky future that he needs to play if and when he can. Remember Kerri Strug, the gymnast who completed her winning olympic vault on a broken foot? I don't remember anyone saying that she should wait four years to get properly healed. That was her one chance and she took it, injury be damned.

 

[pokerface]

Well I'm in full agreement that Amare should give it a try if he's up to it....If anything other than a championship season were riding on it then I would say no dont do it. I'm sure you will agree.


Far as Amares rediculous four month timetable return and terms of "he wont return until he's 100%" being thrown around...that was pure fantasy and I dont care what doctor spoke it. Doctors differ in views....thats why there are second and third opinons. Dont believe everything you read...especially from a doctor thats paid for by the Suns management.

 

[Djaughe]

If anyone cares here is the thread some folks are referencing:

Rehab program after microfracture surgery...

 

[JCSunsfan]

Amare's micro-ed leg had already healed when he came back before. It was his other knee that needed to be cleaned up. He is now at the end of that predicted recovery time. I believe that Amare is close to being ready to play, but the team is not saying a peep about it because it would become VERY distracting to have press people asking about Amare 2 out of every 3 questions.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I don't see how it'll hurt us, he played well when he came back until his non-surgically repaired knee started bothering him. That should be healed by now and there are no back-to-back games in the playoffs so he'll have rest between games. He could disrupt our offensive flow, but he could also draw double-teams to leave our 3 pt shooters wide open. Amare's supposed to be rehabbing and working out every day so he should be in decent shape to play 15-20 minutes a game.

Two Words:

Penny Hardaway.

I think that he may come back though. The Suns appear to me that they rush players back from injury.

That being said, he is on the playoff roster this year.

 

[Chaplin]

Two Words:

Penny Hardaway.

I think that he may come back though. The Suns appear to me that they rush players back from injury.

That being said, he is on the playoff roster this year.

Those 2 words should never, ever be muttered on this board. ESPECIALLY when comparing with Amare Stoudemire.

And once again, JC reiterates what some of us have been saying for months. Amare's surgically repaired knee was fine when he attempted his comeback and is fine now. It is the other knee that needed cleaning out--and that's all it really was.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

He won't play and I hope he doesen't play. He needs the whole summer to get back in shape. Him being at 60% will only hurt us, short and long term. Kurt will be back for Game 1 though probably.

Dude lets try keep the fact straight. Detroit would throttle us but Miami has lost to us twice this year by double digit blow outs and Pat Riley said after the second game "We could play them 4 or 5 more times and i still wouldnt have them figured out..."

Shaq is useless against us and there shoddy preimeter defense is just two big reasons that Miami does not want to play us. I can guarantee you Riley would much rather play Dallas than us......

 

[Nasser22]

Umm, why are you quoting me when I didn't say anything about the Finals? I think we beat the Heat....the Mavs and Clippers(with us not having KT) were tougher competition.

 

[pokerface]

Those 2 words should never, ever be muttered on this board. ESPECIALLY when comparing with Amare Stoudemire.

And once again, JC reiterates what some of us have been saying for months. Amare's surgically repaired knee was fine when he attempted his comeback and is fine now. It is the other knee that needed cleaning out--and that's all it really was.

If his knee was "fine" he wouldnt have been overcompensating for it with his other knee. You dont even know what "fine" is....you're just speculating. Is his fine knee 100%..80%?...50%?....you dont know. If it was 100% then his other good knee wouldnt have been affected in the first place.

 

[wilycoyote24]

If his knee was "fine" he wouldnt have been overcompensating for it with his other knee. You dont even know what "fine" is....you're just speculating. Is his fine knee 100%..80%?...50%?....you dont know. If it was 100% then his other good knee wouldnt have been affected in the first place.

Sure it could be. He may just be timid about using it due to mental and not physical factors.

 

[pokerface]

Sure it could be. He may just be timid about using it due to mental and not physical factors.

Then why have other players taken a full year or better to comeback from this procedure. Their other knee(s) didnt always prevent them from coming back sooner like Amares has done...they still needed the extra time just for thier micro'd knee.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Sure it could be. He may just be timid about using it due to mental and not physical factors.

You don't mentially hurt your knee.

 

[Chaplin]

If his knee was "fine" he wouldnt have been overcompensating for it with his other knee. You dont even know what "fine" is....you're just speculating. Is his fine knee 100%..80%?...50%?....you dont know. If it was 100% then his other good knee wouldnt have been affected in the first place.

Perhaps. But I figure you only have a 50% chance of being right.

 

[Chaplin]

You don't mentially hurt your knee.

Maybe you just didn't understand his post.

So, let me get this straight... You are comparing Amare to Penny Hardaway, and THEN you are saying that Amare had problems with the surgically repaired knee when it has been specifically stated that a) there hasn't been any problems with it since he suited up, and b) he actually had surgery on the other knee to do a cleaning.

Wow, what did Amare have for breakfast this morning? What's his favorite movie? ...since you seem to have the inside track on Amare's mental state, I figured I'd ask.