writer crow: expose these guys, or give em credit

[elindholm]

Another point the "haters" seem to overlook is how little Marion has been missed.

 

[nowagimp]

Yipes, really? You know that his contract is just as long as Shaq's and for more money, right? And that he's played fewer games than Shaq over the last four seasons (202 vs. 230)? So you'd better call him Jermaine "Low FG%, crippling contract, always injured" O'Neal.

I agree on those points and I'll add you can also call him "black hole Oneil", definitely not the passer or team player that shaq is.

 

[scoutmasterdave]

Another point the "haters" seem to overlook is how little Marion has been missed.

Honestly, I've been surprised at how little I have missed Marion. I was never his most ardent fan, and had advocated trading him towards the end there, but I definitely thought the team would suffer more without him. The Suns have gone from a -5 rebound differential to a +3 without Marion and with Shaq. That is an impressive statistic, which obviously shows that Marion is nowhere near the dominant team rebounder that Shaq is, despite Marion's usual edge in rebounds/game. Also, Diaw and Hill have done a halfway decent job defensively on players that Marion used to guard.

 

[95pro]

Honestly, I've been surprised at how little I have missed Marion. I was never his most ardent fan, and had advocated trading him towards the end there, but I definitely thought the team would suffer more without him. The Suns have gone from a -5 rebound differential to a +3 without Marion and with Shaq. That is an impressive statistic, which obviously shows that Marion is nowhere near the dominant team rebounder that Shaq is, despite Marion's usual edge in rebounds/game. Also, Diaw and Hill have done a halfway decent job defensively on players that Marion used to guard.

marion = overrated

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Comparing rebounding numbers has little to do with Marion and more to do with the positions. The Suns now have a [BIG] center that can gobble up the boards, at times without conciously boxing out. The opposing team was getting more than a fair share of those boards before. It was silly-good that a SF masquerading as a PF could get as many boards as Marion did here. It seems to me that the team, and me personally as a fan, is not missing Marion as a Suns, but let's be honest about the rebounding. If Amare could box out, then it wouldn't have been that big of an issue in the first place. IMO.

 

[elindholm]

It seems to me that the team, and me personally as a fan, is not missing Marion as a Suns, but let's be honest about the rebounding. If Amare could box out, then it wouldn't have been that big of an issue in the first place. IMO.

True, but if Stoudemire could box out, Marion's rebounding numbers wouldn't have been so high in the first place.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

True, but if Stoudemire could box out, Marion's rebounding numbers wouldn't have been so high in the first place.

 

[abomb]

The Lakers haven't won anything yet either, but you're going to be hard pressed to find anyone that says the jury is still out on the Gasol trade.

You can't be selective on applying the same logic.

I think that most considered the Suns title contenders with Marion.

No way in hell, especially after Bynum went down, the majority would have agreed the Lakers were title contenders.

 

[Covert Rain]

Marion was still a freak of nature in the rebounding department at SF. Come on guys, it's not like Marion is going to start averaging 5 rebound per game now that he is not on the Suns. That is crap. Just look at his numbers when Amare was out or when others have been on the floor with him.

Marion was already averaging 10 RPG when Amare joined the team. I swear you Marion bashers never give up. If we somehow still had Marion on this team and we managed to get Shaq we would be a lock for the title IMO.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Add gambo and ash to the nay-sayers.


p.s. update the original post with writers/experts cited.

 

[Covert Rain]

Add gambo and ash to the nay-sayers.
p.s. update the original post with writers/experts cited.

At least with ASH he did say that even though he didn't like the deal, he said that if Shaq could come back even remotely healthy he would help the team.

Gambo on the other hand said it was a disaster and worst trade in franchise history and that the team would basically implode.

 

[nowagimp]

Marion was still a freak of nature in the rebounding department at SF. Come on guys, it's not like Marion is going to start averaging 8 rebound per game now that he is not on the Suns. That is crap. Just look at his numbers when Amare was out or when others have been on the floor with him.

Marion was already averaging 10 RPG when Amare joined the team. I swear you Marion bashers never give up. If we somehow still had Marion on this team and we managed to get Shaq we would be a lock for the title IMO.

If the suns still had marion(plus shaq), they would be easily the best rebounding team in the NBA and would be the favorite to win the title. it would have been a "better than gasol deal" and the suns would probably have 60+ wins right now.

 

[elindholm]

I think that most considered the Suns title contenders with Marion.

Then most were wrong, at least this season. The pre-trade Suns weren't going anywhere, and most careful watchers of the Suns had known that since Christmas.

No way in hell, especially after Bynum went down, the majority would have agreed the Lakers were title contenders.

It's also true that Gasol has better long-term value than O'Neal, so the Lakers have longer to realize the dividends of that trade.

 

[Chaplin]

I think that most considered the Suns title contenders with Marion.

No way in hell, especially after Bynum went down, the majority would have agreed the Lakers were title contenders.

You're argument was that the trade value is up in the air until we win the title. I was asking why you easily apply that logic to us, but not to yourselves?

I think you'll find that 100% of this board thinks the Laker trade was a good one. And the Lakers haven't won a title yet.

The Shaq trade was a good trade, no need to wait until/if we win a title.

 

[abomb]

The point is that LAL gave up little (Brown, Crit etc) for Gasol making it a 100% success since Day 1. The only way that trade would have failed was if Gasol would have died in a fiery plane crash just after the NBA filed the trade papers.

The playoff-bound Suns took a huge risk by trading for an aging Shaq (who looked like crap during his time in MIA this year) and his $40M in future money.

The Suns likely would have lost in the playoffs with Marion and losing in the playoffs with Shaq is a zero-sum game IMO.

 

[Covert Rain]

You're argument was that the trade value is up in the air until we win the title. I was asking why you easily apply that logic to us, but not to yourselves?

I think you'll find that 100% of this board thinks the Laker trade was a good one. And the Lakers haven't won a title yet.

The Shaq trade was a good trade, no need to wait until/if we win a title.

Spot on. If your simply talking about the trades then both teams have already reaped benefits. If your reaping benefits and your team is better then before then wouldn't you classify that as good trade? If you start tacking on qualifiers like if you when a title or which team is in better long term shape etc...it's a different topic all together.

The point is that people are not using the same qualifiers when comparing the trades between the teams. I too wish that when people compared trades they would at least apply the same logic to both teams in the same argument.

 

[Cheesewater]

The Suns likely would have lost in the playoffs with Marion and losing in the playoffs with Shaq is a zero-sum game IMO.

What?? Didn't you just say:

"I think that most considered the Suns title contenders with Marion."?

Which is it?

 

[Cheesebeef]

The point is that LAL gave up little (Brown, Crit etc) for Gasol making it a 100% success since Day 1. The only way that trade would have failed was if Gasol would have died in a fiery plane crash just after the NBA filed the trade papers.

The playoff-bound Suns took a huge risk by trading for an aging Shaq (who looked like crap during his time in MIA this year) and his $40M in future money.

The Suns likely would have lost in the playoffs with Marion and losing in the playoffs with Shaq is a zero-sum game IMO.

i don't buy that at all. This team had ZERO shot of beating ANYONE in the playoffs. Abomb, the Suns were losing to EVERY SINGLE WEST PLAYOFF team they played with Marion (and that's not an exeaggeration... they're lone win was against the Spurs, without Parker and the Rockets without T-Mac). The fact that they can actually win some of those games alone makes the trade worth it. They had no shot with Marion and have a better shot with Shaq. That deems the trade a success. To argue otherwise doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[az1965]

Its working out, good. And I hope it takes us to the promised land. And I will support it fully now that it has happenned.

But looking at the big picture when everything is said and done, it was still a bad trade. A 36 year old center for 20 million a year whose abilities have declined? Gave up several draft picks to save money that we ended up losing again? We need youth infestation which we seriously lack and some of these players have really started to show some worth.

 

[Ryanwb]

I have to commend Steve Kerr for having the huevos rancheros to pull this deal off. I wouldn't even have made that trade in a video game

 

[Kody Rumin]

I wasn't convinced of the trade at first, but after thinking about it after a couple of days I began to like it.

 

[SHAQFAN4EVER]

This is a SUNS forum, why dont these Laker fans go to Laker forum and talk about Kobe cheating on his wife and buying her stuff to keep her, or Jerry Buss chasing girls 50 years younger than her???

No matter what, Laker fans wont admit Shaq trade is successful since they are bitter about Shaq. A title is needed for them to substantiate Shaq is replaceable.. Well, who won a Championship first after Shaq departed Lakers, SHAQ did..

Kobe is still waiting for his first ring after Shaq trade.

I wonder what will be the Laker fans' excuses once Shaq win a title with Suns, if Suns do. Dont tell me we dont have enough pieces to win a title. we sure do.
This team is more talented than the Miami Heat team Shaq was on that one a Championship..Dont tell me Wade carried the team and Shaq didnt do anything. Wade averaged 35 points because Dallas decided to double team Shaq at every possession, watch the game before you say something.

Shaq is not done, just watch yesterday's game..

 

[az1965]

i don't buy that at all. This team had ZERO shot of beating ANYONE in the playoffs. Abomb, the Suns were losing to EVERY SINGLE WEST PLAYOFF team they played with Marion (and that's not an exeaggeration... they're lone win was against the Spurs, without Parker and the Rockets without T-Mac). The fact that they can actually win some of those games alone makes the trade worth it. They had no shot with Marion and have a better shot with Shaq. That deems the trade a success. To argue otherwise doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I agree with you that we were not going anywhere with Marion and that the trade made us better. Also created some excitement that was missing from this team this year. But you will agree that we paid a higher price.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree with you that we were not going anywhere with Marion and that the trade made us better. Also created some excitement that was missing from this team this year. But you will agree that we paid a higher price.

oh, without a doubt, the Laker trade was one of the greatest robberies in the history of sport, but the question wasn't was one trade better than the other, was it? I thought the question was: Was that Shaq trade a success? That question has nothing to do whether or not it's as good as the Lakers and there's no doubt from seeing the difference in our rebounding, FG% while still scoring the same amount of points and actually beating some good teams that you can say we're not better now than we were with Marion.

 

[AsUdUdE]

I would like some credit....I said it was a VERY good trade for the suns from the beginning and a ton of people on this board laughed at me....

Anyway I can be givin credit as well?? or at the very least mabe after the playoffs, we can go back and call out everyone that was anti-trade... I think that is actually a better idea....

And BTW.. Hollinger is an idiot, Moron, and will never say he was wrong under any circumstance.....