SECTION 11
vibraslap
Re: Teams rarely trade players!
Where in the world are they going to spend $12M?
I don't see it.
Where in the world are they going to spend $12M?
I don't see it.
Yeesh!
- Thread starter Cheesebeef
- Start date
Re: Teams rarely trade players!
Even if they are 10-6?
Originally posted by Cardiac
If the Cards end the season with more than 2 mil under the cap I will start a thread stating that koolaide has been very very bad to me and that I'm an idiot. For now, I'm keep hydrating myself with this tasty beverage and wait to see how the season plays out.
Even if they are 10-6?
Cardiac
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The Cards will spend the money on Ray Thompson, Clement, Wilson and of course on Peppers when the Panthers cut him.
Cardiac
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Re: Re: Teams rarely trade players!
If the Cards finish 10-6 there isn't a fate except for death that would make me regret that decision. Posting I'm an idiot for this kind of a record, well let's say I'd just be stating the obvious anyways and would do this on a daily basis for that kind of a season.
If the Cards finish 10-6 there isn't a fate except for death that would make me regret that decision. Posting I'm an idiot for this kind of a record, well let's say I'd just be stating the obvious anyways and would do this on a daily basis for that kind of a season.
I look at Ted Washington as a replacement on first and second down in the middle. This would remove either Wendell Bryant(unlikely) or Russell Davis(more likely). This leaves Marcus Bell, Barron Tanner and Russell Davis as your backups.
Most likely one of those three(likely Tanner) is a cut before the season. I feel this ends up hurting Bell's development this year.
I do not see Ted Washington as fitting the philosophy that McGinnis has changed to this year.
He is looking at speed from the D-line and how speedy is Washington at his size?
I agree that he would help our run defense, at the expense of Marcus Bell. I would rather see Bell improve than get Washington.
Most likely one of those three(likely Tanner) is a cut before the season. I feel this ends up hurting Bell's development this year.
I do not see Ted Washington as fitting the philosophy that McGinnis has changed to this year.
He is looking at speed from the D-line and how speedy is Washington at his size?
I agree that he would help our run defense, at the expense of Marcus Bell. I would rather see Bell improve than get Washington.
So the Pats personell (sic) dept. has been shown to be vastly superior to ours huh? According to who? just you? On what basis?
Here's some actual facts that might dispute your baseless claim: (and address the issue of how valuable a 4th rounder may be, and who actually seems to have done better with those selections in recent years:
red = no longer with team
Cards
2003 - Kenny King
2002 - Nate Dwyer
2001 - Bill Grammatica, Marcus Bell
2000 - David Barrett
1999 - Joe Mackovicka
1998 - none
1997 - Chris Dishman
1996 - Aaron Graham
1995 - none
Pats
2003 - Asante Samuel CB
2002 - Rohan Davey QB, Jarvis Green DE
2001 - Kenyatta Jones G, (Jabari Halloway TE
2000 - Greg Robinson-Randall OT
1999 - none
1998 - Leonta Rheams DT,
1997 - Damon Denson G
1996 - Heath Irwin G, Chris Sullivan DE, Kantoy Barber RB
1995 - Dave Wolenbaugh C
Show me how, in just the choice of 4th rounders alone, there is even any remote justification for claiming how much better the Pats personnel dept is. From this, it would seem that its the Cards who do the better job there.
Last edited:
By and large I have tried to remain mum on this without taking a position one way or the other. So let me point out a few things here that I think are the issue and we'll see if we can make this conversation take a different path.
First, Ted Washington is an older player...that cannot be denied. We all go crazy criticizing the guys age but the Cards brought in a aging RB into a position of apparent strength and we don;t want an aging veteran in a position of depth weakness. He is coming back from injury for sure but as I pointed out last night, before last year his mised ONE start in 8 years. That isn't injury prone to me. The Patriots did their homework and part of that was a physical...which there is no doubt he passed since the trade went through.
Second, I have little doubt the Cards weren't interested (they may have not even known Washington was on the block). Do I think he would have been able to help? Yes because the only DT anyone has had total praise for up to now has been Bell. Skkorp himself in a thread yesterday question if Bryant had the will and desire to succeed in the NFL. Sorry but that isn;t what I call high praise for our former 1st rounder...and this analysis is by a guy who saw more TC practices than almost anybody else (pinnacle and Renz excluded). He is better than Davis and he is better than Tanner and some would argue he is better than Bell although Bell appears to have earned serious playing time.
Finally, while I think he would have upgraded a position for a year, Ted Washington doesn;t represent a player missed to me but rather a generalized opportunity that the Cards seem to miss too often. Teams are making trades and trying to get better and the Cards move merrily along with what they have. The quality teams in the NFL don't stand pat. They are constantly working to get better. They are able to make the trades to improve their teams. They go out and find the trash heap player who wa waived and make a player out of him. The Cards seem content to do nothing special to try and make a difference...ESPECIALLY at positions of weakness and DT is a position of weakness IMO (along with DE and CB).
The point is, whether the cards liked him or not, Washington represents more than a player they could have had. He represents alot of players they could have had and either they couldn;t make the sale, or they hoped for something better or they didn;t have their ear close enough to the ground to hear the rumblings.
I still give Graves a C+ but when is he going to do the one thing that makes average/good GMs great ones? Occasionally take a risk. Maybe it pans out and maybe it doesn't but if you never take the risk you will always be mired in problems. That is my ultimate problem. The risk isn't taken and the stagnancy of this organization is frustrating.
First, Ted Washington is an older player...that cannot be denied. We all go crazy criticizing the guys age but the Cards brought in a aging RB into a position of apparent strength and we don;t want an aging veteran in a position of depth weakness. He is coming back from injury for sure but as I pointed out last night, before last year his mised ONE start in 8 years. That isn't injury prone to me. The Patriots did their homework and part of that was a physical...which there is no doubt he passed since the trade went through.
Second, I have little doubt the Cards weren't interested (they may have not even known Washington was on the block). Do I think he would have been able to help? Yes because the only DT anyone has had total praise for up to now has been Bell. Skkorp himself in a thread yesterday question if Bryant had the will and desire to succeed in the NFL. Sorry but that isn;t what I call high praise for our former 1st rounder...and this analysis is by a guy who saw more TC practices than almost anybody else (pinnacle and Renz excluded). He is better than Davis and he is better than Tanner and some would argue he is better than Bell although Bell appears to have earned serious playing time.
Finally, while I think he would have upgraded a position for a year, Ted Washington doesn;t represent a player missed to me but rather a generalized opportunity that the Cards seem to miss too often. Teams are making trades and trying to get better and the Cards move merrily along with what they have. The quality teams in the NFL don't stand pat. They are constantly working to get better. They are able to make the trades to improve their teams. They go out and find the trash heap player who wa waived and make a player out of him. The Cards seem content to do nothing special to try and make a difference...ESPECIALLY at positions of weakness and DT is a position of weakness IMO (along with DE and CB).
The point is, whether the cards liked him or not, Washington represents more than a player they could have had. He represents alot of players they could have had and either they couldn;t make the sale, or they hoped for something better or they didn;t have their ear close enough to the ground to hear the rumblings.
I still give Graves a C+ but when is he going to do the one thing that makes average/good GMs great ones? Occasionally take a risk. Maybe it pans out and maybe it doesn't but if you never take the risk you will always be mired in problems. That is my ultimate problem. The risk isn't taken and the stagnancy of this organization is frustrating.
SECTION 11
vibraslap
And we all know that the true measure of success isn't division titles, playoff wins, or even Superbowls...
it's actually the success of fourth round draft picks.
it's actually the success of fourth round draft picks.
AZCB, clarification. You talk about getting a player off of waivers, but that isn't the case with Washington. Are you saying the Cards should have traded a 4th round pick for Washington?
LVCARDFREAK
In the league 20 years!
Nice Try Tango....
Of course you may want to look at bigger factors such as record in the 90's, division titles, AFC Championships, Superbowls appearances, Superbowl wins, ....I think that is a better judge than how well their 4th rounders do. puhleease!
No surprise here with this post. Cheesy still has his peanut gallery's support. It was Cheesy who made the outlandish statement of how superior the Pats personell(sic) dept. was, and a few people also commented on how giving up a 4th round pick wasn't much, especially since it was the Cards picking.
SECTION 11
vibraslap
I'm not CB, but Hell Yeah.
SECTION 11
vibraslap
They've got four 4th rounders still on their squad.
By the end of cut downs, we'll have four 4th rounders on our squad.
Given that the fourth rounders are a wash, I'd say that the Patriots front office blows ours away.
Rings, Records, Rosevelt... for example.
Wild Card
Surfin' Bird
Tango:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Joel Mackovicka and Aaron Graham "no longer with (the) team?" And isn't Nate Dwyer generally regarded as a bust, who probably wouldn't have a place on a better team's roster?
Not arguing your general point, just error-checking your copy.
WC
Graves did run the 1997 draft for Chicago but prior to that he was more administrative. He never had much power there except for the end. Inexplicably, the Bears let him run their draft even though he was leaving the team...and from what I remember he had chosen his successor (Hatley).
Wildcard, the reason I didn't put Mackovicka and Graham's names in red was because I assumed any knowledgable Card fan (which EVERYONE claims to be) would know that with out me having to tell them.
I would agree that Dwyer APPEARS to be a bust, but he IS still with the team so, as of the moment, its not etched in stone yet.
Mackovicka started for 4 years here. Like him or not...that's not a bust.
Graham was the starting center for awhile, but just wasn't big enough to be a long term starter. Not a pick to wow the world, but again, not a total bust either.
As for the Pats, so far on their list only Kenyatta Jones has actually shown much of anything at this point. This years, and maybe even last..are really too soon to fairly judge eithers picks.
I would agree that Dwyer APPEARS to be a bust, but he IS still with the team so, as of the moment, its not etched in stone yet.
Mackovicka started for 4 years here. Like him or not...that's not a bust.
Graham was the starting center for awhile, but just wasn't big enough to be a long term starter. Not a pick to wow the world, but again, not a total bust either.
As for the Pats, so far on their list only Kenyatta Jones has actually shown much of anything at this point. This years, and maybe even last..are really too soon to fairly judge eithers picks.
Second part, yes I believe a 4th rounder was well worth the risk. IMO, the Patriots stole him for that but that is simply my opinion. Go check out a Bears board and there is overwhelming disgust with this move.
My waiver comments are based on reading the waiver wire each day. Watching teams dropping this guy and scooping up this guy. It shows me attempts are being made to improve on a daily basis. Maybe they are foolhardy attempts but these teams are trying and the Cards have been absent from any activity. All I am suggesting is that at some point risks need to be taken. Maybe the risks fail but at least you are TRYING.
Like I said, and make no mistake, Graves has done more good than bad this offseason but I want him to take calculated risks. Washington was basically a no downside risk. Even if he gets hurt, you are no worse off and if he plays as well as most in Chicago were expecting, they he has improved the team.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Actually, to 'clarify' this mistake-riddled list (some others already pointed out some of the mistakes):
Kenny King wasn't a fourth round choice. Hello? We didn't HAVE a fourth round pick. We traded it away and it's been a source of argument for months, remember?
Also, Dave Wolenbaugh is still a solid starter in this league, though not with the Pats. They had to get rid of him when they drafted Woody for cap purposes. That pick was therefore a success, because he was a good player. No one on our list, yet, has lived up to the success Wolenbaugh has had.
By your rationale, all of the Pats players not in red have the ability to be breakout players, simply for the fact that they are STILL on the roster. This is a rationale I completely disagree with (so many flaws to that kind of logic), but whatever.
Case in point, you don't call Graham a bust *yawn* Riiiiiiight. And we all know, just because a player starts in the NFL, he was a good player and not a bust. Then why was it Missablocka rarely opened up holes, played like a weeble-wobble and was a pass-catching nonentity? Why did he earn the name Missablocka? Why hasn't he been signed by another team? Could it be he doesn't have enough talent? Impossible by your rationale, because he started here.
Just wanted to clear up some of your oversights.
I won't bother to repeat what ASH said, it's just that you seem to look for every opportunity to spin somethings as bad. Then you ignore the good.
However, that one thing more than any other did scare Just Say No to Kordell , I would rather have Jake back than that.
The things that those of you whowant Ted Washington and the DT that was discussed yesterday are ignoring are (1) Our coaching staff are fine with our Defensive Tackle position. It is D end that they are concerned about. and(2) the 2 DT's that you are pushing do not fit the new defensive scheme of the team. They want D-linemen that can move, penetrate , and make plays in the offensive backfield. I certainly don't think that Washington fits that mold.
I also would like to see us make some positve personnel moves, but not moves just to show that we are doing something.
I also would like to see us make some positve personnel moves, but not moves just to show that we are doing something.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
last time i checked the season hadn't started.
RugbyMuffin
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Originally posted by Renz
Did the season start all ready? Wow! I must have missed it. I thought we had two-and-a-half weeks until the beginning of the regular season.
And as we all know, there are no DL out there better than Ted Washington.
Fine Graves has a little less than 3 weeks to get a vet DL onto the team.
TICK TOCK TICK TOCK!
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
by that logic no one should ever trade for another player 'cuz at least one team with superior knowledge of his play deemed him expendable...
SECTION 11
vibraslap
They cleared up $1.6M in cap space and gained some trade fodder with a fourth rounder.
My guess is that Duce Staley will find his way to Chicago before the season starts.
At this point, Chicago's offense is in much worse shape than their defense and I think they're looking to improve on O, albeit at the expense of the defense.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Man, I guess. I don't see Fred Wakefield, KVB, Barron Tanner, or Russell Davis being able to "move, penetrate, and make plays in the offensive backfield." LDEs, as a general rule, aren't penetrators (once-a-generation talents like Julius Peppers notwithstanding) because they have to pay attention to runs on the strong-side of the line.
Chidi Ahanotu and Ted Washington are going to make the players around them better in two ways: They're goint to impart playing experience, and they're going to attract attention, freeing up the younger talent to make plays. Do you really think that Chidi, after 8 years or whatever in the league, is going to allow himself to be ridden upfield by the ORT, like KVB did all preseason? Regardless of whether you believe it or not, older players have knowledge, savvy, and moves that younger players do not. Players like Washington and Ahanotu can make the difference between 4.2 YPC and 3.6. That could translate into two wins. That's the difference between a 7-9 team and a 9-7 team.
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