12/23: Suns at Heat Game Thread

BC867

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I'm not surprised though. It took him a while to realize Turkoglu is not a starter, then it took him a lot of time again to find out that Turkoglu is wrong for this team period.
The Coach knowing it is one thing. The GM (or owner, when he was playing banker-turned-GM) is something else.

Alvin Gentry held the ship together while the Suns settled their Front Office problems. And, despite a rough schedule, was just one game under .500 before the trade.

Will I be happy with .500 once the new roster settles in? Of course not.
 

Covert Rain

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Actually there is evidence that if Lopez is paired with a real big man, the team as a whole rebounds better. For example last year with Amare, when Lopez was starting we were 11th in the NBA in rebounds.

According to what? I just looked at Robin's numbers and don't see that at all. He had 4 double digit games with 10 or more rebounds. In 17 games where he played starter minutes (25 min or more)..he managed to get into double figures 4 times out of 17. He never posted over 12 with or without Amare. He is listed as starting in 31 games (but couldn't stay in the games for almost half of them) with his best stretch averaging no more then 6.2 rebounds.

Even if he did post slightly higher numbers with Amare on the court (which I don't see) it couldn't have been more then 1 or 2 extra. So even on average if he managed to get say 7 with Amare on the court.....when your a 7 footer and can only get 7 when another big is on the court....that still says "suck". That doesn't sound like evidence at all.

Robin Lopez is a 7 footer. No matter who he is on the court with....if he is not at least averaging 10 a game, that is pathetic. This entire discussion is moot anyway. He is not going to get major time on the court with MG according to Gentry's interview. So, that leaves who is going to get us better rebounding stats?? I don't see any evidence that supports Robin.

Maybe MG could play PF but that doesn't mean Lopez is going to become a good rebounder because of it.
 
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sunsfan88

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According to what? I just looked at Robin's numbers and don't see that at all. He had 4 double digit games with 10 or more rebounds. In 17 games where he played starter minutes (25 min or more)..he managed to get into double figures 4 times out of 17. He never posted over 12 with or without Amare. He is listed as starting in 31 games (but couldn't stay in the games for almost half of them) with his best stretch averaging no more then 6.2 rebounds.

Even if he did post slightly higher numbers with Amare on the court (which I don't see) it couldn't have been more then 1 or 2 extra. So even on average if he managed to get say 7 with Amare on the court.....when your a 7 footer and can only get 7 when another big is on the court....that still says "suck". That doesn't sound like evidence at all.

Robin Lopez is a 7 footer. No matter who he is on the court with....if he is not at least averaging 10 a game, that is pathetic. This entire discussion is moot anyway. He is not going to get major time on the court with MG according to Gentry's interview. So, that leaves who is going to get us better rebounding stats?? I don't see any evidence that supports Robin.

Maybe MG could play PF but that doesn't mean Lopez is going to become a good rebounder because of it.
Lopez starting along side a legit big man helps our team rebounding. Hence I mentioned we were 11th once he started and 24th before he started.

He takes up room in the paint and does a good job of boxing his man out which allows for the other big man or wing player to board the ball.

Trust me I wish Lopez had good hands too, but considering our situation, I'll take what I can get.
 

Chaplin

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I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with here, Chap. Are you telling me I didn't see Gortat lose sight of either his man or the ball on several occasions? I'm not blaming him for the loss nor am I excusing Warrick. I'm just making a blanket statement about what I saw from Gortat last night without regard to anyone else's performance. It's my hope that he was just overwhelmed playing with new guys and was unsure of his defensive assignment but I can't help being a little concerned.

Steve

I'm saying Bosh being open all the time wasn't Gortat's fault. It was Warrick's (and Frye's). Gortat was always the center when he was in the lineup, so he consistently guarded Joel Anthony and Z.
 

AzStevenCal

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I'm saying Bosh being open all the time wasn't Gortat's fault. It was Warrick's (and Frye's). Gortat was always the center when he was in the lineup, so he consistently guarded Joel Anthony and Z.

I'd probably agree that Warrick negatively impacted the defense considerably while Gortat was on the court. My statement about Gortat was just an observation of him in isolation. Hopefully, it was the result of unfamiliarity with teammates and responsibilities. It will take several games playing together to see just what kind of effect Gortat will have on this group. Hopefully, his defense will affect our team defense more than the other way around.

Steve
 

Budden

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I'd probably agree that Warrick negatively impacted the defense considerably while Gortat was on the court. My statement about Gortat was just an observation of him in isolation. Hopefully, it was the result of unfamiliarity with teammates and responsibilities. It will take several games playing together to see just what kind of effect Gortat will have on this group. Hopefully, his defense will affect our team defense more than the other way around.

Steve

I gotta say: I love the arguments you and Chap have. So often, you agree on pertinent points, but you guys pick out one little idea, twist it around and turn it into a full-fledged debate. :D

The truth is, Warrick and Gortat got mixed up on defense when they were out there together. I really wouldn't worry too much about this, though. The Suns have a lot of problems that were evident last night, but the fact that Heat players found themselves on offense standing under the basket without a defender in sight on numerous occasions is not a problem that will persist.

Let's be fair: the Suns' team defense is basically a smorgasbord of gimmicks that Gentry is forced to use, on account of the fact that most of the players on this team are small forwards. Playing against the Heat, we needed to layer on a few more gimmicks for a whole bunch of different situations - on pick-and-rolls, does the big man double the dribbler, hedge and get back to his man, or switch, and what do the other three guys do? If you are going to run a big man at Lebron James in the middle of the floor, which big man is it? It's gotta be someone who is tall enough to obscure Lebron's court vision and who is close enough to Lebron before going over to double team; what if that defender happens to be guarding Chris Bosh? Who, then, rotates over to Bosh? That guy has to be tall enough to disrupt Bosh's jumpshot and also has to be in Bosh's vicinity, and that defender is probably going to come from the paint, meaning that another guy has to rotate down a bit; of course, that guy can't rotate all the way over, because he is now responsible for covering the paint if someone slashes into the lane from the other side of the court in addition to covering a perimeter shooter from the wing - so it should have been expected that the Suns would have some defensive miscues. The worst ones (in which players were wide open for dunks) naturally involved Gortat and Warrick, because Warrick has those are the two guys on the team who actually fit the criteria necessary to be able to do all of those things I mentioned above (block Lebron's vision, get a hand in Bosh's face, patrol the paint, etc.). And as big of a change as it is for Gortat, coming from a defensive system anchored by if not completely designed around Dwight Howard to the Valley of the Small Forwards, it's also a huge adjustment for Warrick, as well, who was used to playing with Hedo "I don't care that the Suns have 11 other small forwards, I am not a power forward" Turkoglu and Channing "I would be a much better defender if defense involved me spotting up for 3; I'll even slide over to the small forward position if that will help" Frye.

The point is, don't worry. it's going to take a little time, but I'm confident that, as the team gets comfortable with one another, we'll stop giving up those wide open dunks. We'll be back to giving up wide open 3's from the corner in no time!
 

devilalum

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The way the Heat dismantled the Lakers today was like a replay of the Suns game.
 

Trifecta

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Robin Lopez is a 7 footer. No matter who he is on the court with....if he is not at least averaging 10 a game, that is pathetic.

So by that logic every 7 footer in the NBA not named Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Pau Gasol or Marcus Camby is pathetic....
 

sunsfan88

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The way the Heat dismantled the Lakers today was like a replay of the Suns game.
We didn't lose to Miami that bad Thursday...

Miami is a real good team. Just looking at their defense, you could tell this team is built for prime time.

Their the best team in the NBA IMO. And they could turn out to be a dynasty unless CP3, 'Melo, & Amare all team up in NY to counter them.
 

Budden

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Man, Lebron is such an arrogant prick these days. Did you catch him as the clock wound down? Flicks the ball over to his team, glares at the ref, turns his back on the ref and the play with like 25 seconds to go. Untucks his jersey, puffs out his chest and starts swaggering back to the bench. No respect for his opponents, his team or the game. Doesn't go congratulate his team on the floor or anything. Blech. I used to like the guy.

This current NBA generation is a real mixed bag. The players are more athletic and talented then ever, both offense and defense, but there sure are a bunch of unappealing personalities in the league. Especially the superstars. Egomania on display every night! Woohoo!

That's sort of unfair, don't you agree? There is a lot of egomania in this league, but most of it isn't coming from the superstars. In fact, I think that becoming a bonafide superstar in the NBA is EXTREMELY more difficult if you are an egomaniac. You need to have an acute level of self-awareness to become a true superstar, so even if you come into the league an egomaniacal jacka$$, you tend to become humbled as you realize the level of talent around you each and every night, and you need to look closely at yourself in order to find out how you can improve enough to rise above the plethora of extremely talented guys in the league. Stephon Marbury is the perfect example of this. The guy literally went crazy, because he wasn't able to reconcile his failures with his ego. He loved to win, had such passion for the game - remember Amar'e's rookie year when we went 44-38 and took the Spurs to 6 games? Remember the sheer elation he displayed when we clinched a playoff birth? But he was unwilling (or unable) to let down his ego and figure out what he was doing wrong, why he was always the best player on a terrible team. He was an egomaniac; and I think that had a lot to do with why he was never a superstar.

Lebron is the worst, and he just might have found a loophole that will allow him to be an egomaniacal superstar with a championship ring (or two) if Wade can stomach being around him all the time. But Kobe Bryant isn't an egomaniac (he was always cocky, but he used to take so much abuse from Shaq, constantly badmouthing him in the media, and he really only responded to it publicly in that one "Shaq's fat" interview); Amar'e Stoudemire isn't an egomaniac; it doesn't appear that Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, Brandon Roy, or Dirk Nowitzki are egomaniacs (Rose and Roy aren't superstars, but they could be in a couple years). Wade doesn't appear to be an egomaniac, or at least he's too polite to show it. Etc. etc.
 

sunsfan88

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Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose are the two most humble guys in the NBA.

I have never heard they say anything that even sounds remotely cocky.

Whenever there's an interview and people ask him if he thinks he's a top 5 player in the NBA he always says somethin like "aww nah man I'm not a superstar. I'm just a player I aint even close to as good as them" etc. Truth is that Durant is already the 3rd best player in the NBA at age 22 and I pereonally think he has the potential to be realistically compared to Michael Jordan.

Derrrick Rose is another story. This kid brought that team up from a dump. He had absolutely NOTHING to work with. He make every player on that team look good. And in an inrerview he never talks about himself but rather always about how good his team-mates are.

If Rose and Durant were to be on one team, they'd win championship after championship because there is no ego between em.
 

Covert Rain

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Lopez starting along side a legit big man helps our team rebounding. Hence I mentioned we were 11th once he started and 24th before he started.

He takes up room in the paint and does a good job of boxing his man out which allows for the other big man or wing player to board the ball.

Trust me I wish Lopez had good hands too, but considering our situation, I'll take what I can get.

It had nothing to do with Lopez. The entire team went through a mini stretch (even the bench) where they were rebounding better with or without Lopez on the floor. Team rebounding didn't significantly improve only when he was on the floor. If you look at the +/- the biggest improvement I could see was 1.5 rebounds when he was on the floor and it was for only 1 week. 1.5 more on a team that sucks at rebounding is like saying.... well we suck...but we suck a little less when he is out there.
 
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