2011 Draft Thread

[Bufalay]

Gortat's double-double at Center this season was the first since our very first Center, Neal Walk, forty years ago.

Mark West averaged 10pts and 9rbs in '89.

Kurt Thomas had 8 and 8 in '06 and 11 and 10 the year before the Suns acquired him.

 

[slinslin]

Gortat's double-double at Center this season was the first since our very first Center, Neal Walk, forty years ago..

Gortat did not average a double double this season, not even if you take just his post-trade numbers.

I'd rather have Amare at center, we would be much better team overall.

 

[Covert Rain]

Gortat did not average a double double this season, not even if you take just his post-trade numbers.

I'd rather have Amare at center, we would be much better team overall.

Oh slinslin....why do you do this to yourself? You can't even count the time in Orlando because he hardly played. So......

Post Trade overall (9.3 Rebounds, 12.9 Points). Yes....it's not a double double but it's damn close. Factor in that even Gentry said it would take about 20 games for him to get acclimated to the Suns.

So, if you count from February on...his stats:

10.2 Rebounds and 14.4 Points. Since February Gortat has been hands down one of the best Centers in the entire NBA. He also raised up the stats charts faster than ANY NBA center in the league.

By the way Gortat is currently only behind 6 other centers in the NBA with double doubles DESPITE playing only 1/2 season as a starter.

But hey slinslin....don't let facts get in the way.....you usually don't. You are so transparent when it comes to Gortat. We know....we know..... Lopez rules.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i must have missed some huge debate, but slin, do you really think Lopez is better than Gortat?

 

[Covert Rain]

i must have missed some huge debate, but slin, do you really think Lopez is better than Gortat?

Well if you read all his posts after the trade he does say that. He made the argument that if Lopez got the minutes he would be just as good as Gortat.

Now that he can't really defend that position, every other posts suggests Gortat is overrated, Lopez is underrated or that we should trade Gortat for young talent. He constantly takes shots at Gortat or devalues him out of some bizarre loyalty to Lopez.

It's weird. It's almost hit the Andrew/Shaq level of love but with a player that sucks. Either that or he has some deep seeded hatred for Gortat that only slinslin understands.

 

[AzStevenCal]

i must have missed some huge debate, but slin, do you really think Lopez is better than Gortat?

Oh yeah, he use to hammer us with +/- stats to show us that Lopez in his 10 minutes of play alongside Nash and the rest of the starters was better than Gortat who at that time was playing more than half his minutes with the scrubs. And by scrubs, I mean he was stuck playing next to Warrick most of the time.

Steve

 

[Bufalay]

Oh slinslin....why do you do this to yourself? You can't even count the time in Orlando because he hardly played. So......

Post Trade overall (9.3 PPG, 12.9 Rebounds). Yes....it's not a double double but it's damn close. Factor in that even Gentry said it would take about 20 games for him to get acclimated to the Suns.

So, if you count from February on...his stats:

10.2 PPG and 14.4 rebounds. Since February Gortat has been hands down one of the best Centers in the entire NBA. He also raised up the stats charts faster than ANY NBA center in the league.

By the way Gortat is currently only behind 6 other centers in the NBA with double doubles DESPITE playing only 1/2 season as a starter.

But hey slinslin....don't let facts get in the way.....you usually don't. You are so transparent when it comes to Gortat. We know....we know..... Lopez rules.

Looks like you've got his pts and rbs mixed up.

 

[Covert Rain]

Looks like you've got his pts and rbs mixed up.

DOH!!! You are right Bufalay. Sorry about that folks. Fixed the original post.

Thanks man.

 

[slinslin]

i must have missed some huge debate, but slin, do you really think Lopez is better than Gortat?

No I just said after the first 10 games that Gortats individual stats don't effect our team performance as he had the worst adjusted +/- stats on the entire team by a far margin.
And that the team despite Lopez shortcommings individually performed better as a whole when he was on the floor.

And whoever says that adjusted +/- stats are meaningless has no clue or does not understand what the statistic means.

Whoever thinks that Gortat is a top 10 center is simply delusional. top 15 is pushing it. Realistically it is between 15-23 ... and that with the luxury of playing in this tempo and alongside Steve Nash.

 

[slinslin]

Oh yeah, he use to hammer us with +/- stats to show us that Lopez in his 10 minutes of play alongside Nash and the rest of the starters was better than Gortat who at that time was playing more than half his minutes with the scrubs. And by scrubs, I mean he was stuck playing next to Warrick most of the time.

Steve

You don't understand adjusted +/- at all.

Even if used just common sense Gortat played 30mpg it wouldn't explain why his +/- was the worst on the team by a huge margin of almost 10 points.

 

[slinslin]

Oh slinslin....why do you do this to yourself? You can't even count the time in Orlando because he hardly played. So......

Post Trade overall (9.3 Rebounds, 12.9 Points). Yes....it's not a double double but it's damn close. Factor in that even Gentry said it would take about 20 games for him to get acclimated to the Suns.

So, if you count from February on...his stats:

10.2 Rebounds and 14.4 Points. Since February Gortat has been hands down one of the best Centers in the entire NBA. He also raised up the stats charts faster than ANY NBA center in the league.

By the way Gortat is currently only behind 6 other centers in the NBA with double doubles DESPITE playing only 1/2 season as a starter.

But hey slinslin....don't let facts get in the way.....you usually don't. You are so transparent when it comes to Gortat. We know....we know..... Lopez rules.

I'd advise you to use facts. Even if you cherry pick your stats 12.9 and 9.3 is not a double-double no matter how you want to twist it.

If Gortat was one of the best centers in the NBA we wouldn't be 9-16 or something since the allstar game, FACT.

The overrating of Gortat is hilarious.

 

[dziki]

Slin you`re sure that you don`t like Gortat just because he is from Poland?;-)

And whoever says that adjusted +/- stats are meaningless has no clue or does not understand what the statistic means.

and

You don't understand adjusted +/- at all.

Ok, so I see that you are the only one who really knows this true, hidden meaning of +/- statistic. Sure, whatever.
It`s better to consider efficiency stats from nba.com. Then you`ll find that in PHX only Steve Nash (21.1, 21st in all league) is better than Gortat (15.6, 74th in NBA but with Orlando games included). As you can find EFF for 48 minutes placed Gortat over Odom, Ibaka or LaMarcus Alridge. But whatever, it doesn`t fit to your theories.

And you`re saying that avaraging 13 pts, 9 rbs, 1 a and 1 bs in 30 minutes by the guy who played hitherto maximum 15 minutes back to Dwight Howard is not impressive? The FACT (as you want to stress it) is that basketball is a TEAM GAME. Another FACT is that after AS Nash and Frye were injured. One another FACT is that Siler and - primarily - Robin Lopez crappe.... I mean, "performed" in some weird ballet that no one (except himself and you) understand. But I`m not sure if he knows what kind of game he is playing to. More FACTS? I think this is ridiculous that you are tryin` to implement some stupid idea into our heads just because of your imagination. C`mon, be serious. Gortat avaraging ALMOST D-D and you just sayin` its "overrating". Seriously?

 

[slinslin]

You don't get the point at all, why bring up efficiency when I never argued that he was putting up individual numbers?

The point is at the time of the argument Gortats plus/minus was worse than - 10 nobody was even close to such bad numbers except Dragic which is logical.

And yes Gortat is overrated if you go by people who claim he is a top 10 center, he is not.

And an almost double double is not a double double, There are many players who almost average a double double at a slower pace too and without Nash feeding them.

 

[BC867]

The point is at the time of the argument Gortats plus/minus was worse than - 10 nobody was even close to such bad numbers except Dragic which is logical.

And yes Gortat is overrated if you go by people who claim he is a top 10 center, he is not.

Gortat was the only Center in the league playing 18-consecutive minute halves.

And a high proportion of those minutes were when Nash and the rest of the starting unit were on the bench.

Of course his +/- suffered as one of five players on the court. He's not Superman. Just potentially the best all-around Center the Suns have ever had. And a team leader since the day he arrived.

Aside from Nash (who may or may not be here next season), Gortat is becoming the face of the team. Why would any Suns fan want to minimize his importance to the organization thus far?

 

[slinslin]

Gortat was the only Center in the league playing 18-consecutive minute halves.

And a high proportion of those minutes were when Nash and the rest of the starting unit were on the bench.

Of course his +/- suffered as one of five players on the court. He's not Superman. Just potentially the best all-around Center the Suns have ever had. And a team leader since the day he arrived.

Aside from Nash (who may or may not be here next season), Gortat is becoming the face of the team. Why would any Suns fan want to minimize his importance to the organization thus far?

You don't get adjusted +/- stats. It already accounts for who you are on the court with.

Gortat the face of this organisation? You must plan on sucking for a long time if Gortat is the "face of the organisation". He is an average center.

 

[slinslin]

Of course his +/- suffered as one of five players on the court. He's not Superman. Just potentially the best all-around Center the Suns have ever had. And a team leader since the day he arrived.

Ridiculous, I don't even have to go back far to name one clearly better and that was Shaq who deservedly was an allstar center for us his first full season.

 

[Bufalay]

What is the fascination with the double-double threshold? Its as if 12-10 is somehow far more impressive than 12-9.3.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think I would be willing to trade our lottery pick this year for an unprotected pick next year. As long as it is with the right team. The Clips or Minny would be good.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ridiculous, I don't even have to go back far to name one clearly better and that was Shaq who deservedly was an allstar center for us his first full season.

Shaq's tenure here is like a foggy blip on the radar. He had some stats but his presence was such a terrible mismatch with the team that we all would rather forget it.

Gortat is not the superstar that BC makes him, but he is not quite as bad as you describe him either.

 

[slinslin]

he is average.. that is not bad..

Top 15-20 center in the league = average

Average starter would be accurate.

 

[slinslin]

My updated board without Sullinger, Barnes and Jones.

This is what I think it probably looks like although I am not that high on Irving for example or Motiejunas and Valanciunas.

1. Kyrie Irving
2. Derrick Williams
3. Enes Kanter
4. Bismack Biyombo
5. Jonas Valanciunas
6. Donatas Motiejunas
7. Jan Veseley
8. Kemba Walker
9. Brandon Knight
10. Kawhi Leonard
11. Terrence Jones
12. Jimmer Fredette
13. Alec Burks
14. Jordan Hamilton

Now my list would look a lot different

1. Derrick Williams // -> Antawn Jamison/Michael Beasley
2. Enes Kanter // -> Andrew Bogut/DeMarcus Cousins/Al Horford
3. Kyrie Irving // -> Terelle Brandon
4. Brandon Knight // -> Jason Terry
5. Alec Burks // -> Eddie Jones
6. Bismack Biyombo // -> Elton Brand
7. Kemba Walker // -> Tim Hardaway
8. Patric Young //
9. Jonas Valanciunas // -> Andris Biedrins
10. Donatas Motiejunas // -> Andrea Bargnani/Channing Frye
11. Terrence Jones // -> Marvin Williams
12. Kawhi Leonard // -> Corey Magette
13. Jordan Hamilton //
14. Jan Veseley //

Young isn't coming out I guess. Burks, Knight and Walker are all over the board in the lottery depending where you look so I hope we end up with one of them.

DX has Burks at #13 right now
nbadraft.net has Burks at #10 and Walker at #13
Espn has Knight at #9 and Burks outside the lottery

 

[AzStevenCal]

Shaq's tenure here is like a foggy blip on the radar. He had some stats but his presence was such a terrible mismatch with the team that we all would rather forget it.

Gortat is not the superstar that BC makes him, but he is not quite as bad as you describe him either.

I don't think he's a superstar either. I think he's a slightly above average center with considerable room for growth. He has the right attitude and the right physical gifts to become a top 5 center in this league. I think he'll get there.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

I don't think he's a superstar either. I think he's a slightly above average center with considerable room for growth. He has the right attitude and the right physical gifts to become a top 5 center in this league. I think he'll get there.

Steve

You think he will be better than one of these?

Dwight Howard
Andrew Bogut
Joakim Noah
Andrew Bynum
Al Horford
Tim Duncan
Nene

Plus whatever Center prospects might get into the league?

Plus center prospects like Cousins, McGee and DeAndre Jordan who have more upside than Gortat also improving?

Plus injured centers like Oden and Yao who might come back eventually.

Come on now... top 5 .. seriously....

 

[AzStevenCal]

You think he will be better than one of these?

Dwight Howard
Andrew Bogut
Joakim Noah
Andrew Bynum
Al Horford
Tim Duncan
Nene

Plus whatever Center prospects might get into the league?

Plus center prospects like Cousins, McGee and DeAndre Jordan who have more upside than Gortat also improving?

Plus injured centers like Oden and Yao who might come back eventually.

Come on now... top 5 .. seriously....

Yes, I think he can and will become a top 5 center. I think you greatly overrate Nene and Tim Duncan isn't Tim Duncan any longer. Also, I think he could easily pass Horford by as Al is NOT a center and it wouldn't take much to pass Bynum by because early steroid use (my opinion) has made him incredibly injury prone. I don't think Mcgee will ever be anything more than a specialist at the position, a poor man's Dikembe. Cousins will NEVER reach his potential and DeAndre Jordan has even further to go than Gortat.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

Yes, I think he can and will become a top 5 center. I think you greatly overrate Nene and Tim Duncan isn't Tim Duncan any longer. Also, I think he could easily pass Horford by as Al is NOT a center and it wouldn't take much to pass Bynum by because early steroid use (my opinion) has made him incredibly injury prone. I don't think Mcgee will ever be anything more than a specialist at the position, a poor man's Dikembe. Cousins will NEVER reach his potential and DeAndre Jordan has even further to go than Gortat.

Steve

Oh really?

DeAndre Jordan averaged 7 points 7 rebounds and 2 blocks in 25mpg
Marcin Gortat averaged 10 points 8 rebounds and 1 block in 27 mpg
Javale McGee averaged 10 points 8 rebounds and 2.5 blocks in 28 mpg

Gortat is 27, Jordan is 22, McGee is 23.

If you asked neutral NBA fans if they rather had Jordan or Gortat I'd think at least 80% would say Jordan.

Even if Cousins never reached his potential, he does not have to as his absolute maximum is much much more than what Gortat can be.

Heck Cousins as a rookie averaged 14/8.6/2.5 a steal and a block in the same minutes as Gortat. There is no doubt he is going to be better.

I am not overrating Nene, he is a better defender and actually has some post moves.

Lets see what Gortat can even do if there is no more Steve Nash because I'd guarantee that someone like DeAndre Jordan would have put up much better numbers on the Suns playing at our pace and with Nash than what he did on the Clippers.