2011 Draft Thread

[sunsfan88]

Hey slinslin, you better tell that to Nash. He can't possibly be one of the best PG because of how the team played all season. While your at it...tell Amare too because his team has been .500 or worse most of the season.

He better tell All-Star players Kevin Love, and Blake Griffin that too.

 

[BC867]

And an almost double double is not a double double, There are many players who almost average a double double at a slower pace too and without Nash feeding them.

You are referring to the scoring half of a double-double. Even Robin Lopez could average 10 ppg if he had some basketball common sense.

Gortat's value to a soft team like the Suns is the rebounding half of the double-double. And his toughness. And how his presence has taken pressure off Frye as the big man and helped his rebounding.

No one is saying that Marcin is going to be a superstar. But he has already shown himself to be something we need desperately. Consistency in the paint.

With Gortat there, we have come to expect that he will grab, and hold onto, the rebound. That's one of the major keys that you build a team around.

He doesn't need Nash hobbling up and down the court to fulfill that much needed role.

Do we have any doubt that Marcin's offensive game will take a step up during the off-season, whether Steve is here or not?

I just hope, as he and Steve were this year, he won't be worn out during the stretch.

 

[slinslin]

He better tell All-Star players Kevin Love, and Blake Griffin that too.

Baloney, we already know that Steve Nash is what he is. We know that this team with Amare Stoudemire instead of Gortat is 50+ win team.

If you have Steve Nash and one of the best centers in the league you are not a .300 team like the Suns were with Gortat as a starter.

 

[slinslin]

Gortat's value to a soft team like the Suns is the rebounding half of the double-double. And his toughness. And how his presence has taken pressure off Frye as the big man and helped his rebounding.

With Gortat there, we have come to expect that he will grab, and hold onto, the rebound. That's one of the major keys that you build a team around.

He doesn't need Nash hobbling up and down the court to fulfill that much needed role.

It's hilarious to draw the connection that Frye is a better rebounder now because Gortat is a better rebounder than what we had before.

Gortat is not averaging double digit rebounds. He is getting about 1 rebound more per game than what Amare Stoudemire got in the same minutes.

Sorry but players that consistently get 8-9 rebounds a game are dime a dozen in the league. It is not going to be enough if Gortat only gets rebounds and does nothing else.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Baloney, we already know that Steve Nash is what he is. We know that this team with Amare Stoudemire instead of Gortat is 50+ win team.

If you have Steve Nash and one of the best centers in the league you are not a .300 team like the Suns were with Gortat as a starter.

No, we don't know that. Bring Amare to Phoenix in a Hedo/JR trade and I doubt we finish much above .500. This team was playing without 2 of it's 3 best players from last year and you could argue that with Nash so limited we were missing all 3 of them. It would be insanity on steroids to expect a 26 year old center with little court time to make up for that kind of loss.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Baloney, we already know that Steve Nash is what he is. We know that this team with Amare Stoudemire instead of Gortat is 50+ win team.

If you have Steve Nash and one of the best centers in the league you are not a .300 team like the Suns were with Gortat as a starter.

Why are you comparing Gortat and Amare? Us trading Amare to NY had nothing to do with trading for Gortat 6 months later.

Gortat wasnt brought here to average 20+ pts a game. He was brought in for his defense & rebounding and he sure as hell did his job.

Instead of saying if we had Amare "instead" of Gortat, say if we had Amare "and" Gortat, this team would be a 50 win team and imo would be the champs of 2011.

 

[BC867]

Instead of saying if we had Amare "instead" of Gortat, say if we had Amare "and" Gortat, this team would be a 50 win team and imo would be the champs of 2011.

That is true. Having Frye alongside Gortat at the power positions lately (but with decent backups) is just a glimpse of what we could have been with Amar'e alongside Gortat.

I supported not keeping Amar'e when he was our defacto Center and only legitimate big man because of his health and foul trouble. Or moving him to Center so Marion could be moved from Small Forward to Power Forward.

That was acting from a position of weakness. Gortat and Amar'e side-by-side would be a position of strength.

Of course, if the other purpose of moving Amar'e to Center was to reduce his All Star competition, then it's not about rising above .500 for the season, it's about the glory of one game.

 

[gordon]

You don't get the point at all, why bring up efficiency when I never argued that he was putting up individual numbers?

The point is at the time of the argument Gortats plus/minus was worse than - 10 nobody was even close to such bad numbers except Dragic which is logical.

And yes Gortat is overrated if you go by people who claim he is a top 10 center, he is not.

And an almost double double is not a double double, There are many players who almost average a double double at a slower pace too and without Nash feeding them.

How about instead of adjusted +/- look at Win Shares per 48 minutes (an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes). In this stat Gortat (.151 WS/48) ranks 2nd on our team (behind Nash with .153 WS/48) and 7th among the centers in the league. What's your explanation for this stat? Is it just a fluke or something else?

Here is link to basketball-reference.com WS/48 stats: bkref.com/tiny/j4ty4

Oh, and hi guys. My first post

 

[mojorizen7]

It's hilarious to draw the connection that Frye is a better rebounder now because Gortat is a better rebounder than what we had before.

No its not Slin....because its a TEAM game. Certain players make others certain players better....as a result of chemistry and what certain players bring to the floor.

Its not necessarily about getting the best 5 players at each position(although the '92 Dream Team would argue that with a 50 pt victory preceded by an autograph session from the opponent)........

Its about finding a blend of superstars and role players......mostly veterans with a few younger guys who are ready to step up. You decide where you're gonna get your scoring from and you then surround them with intelligent guys who can defend,shoot a little and defer to the scorers.

Slin,don't you think that(hypothetically) Frye rotating with a Joakim Noah in Chicago would completely fortify Chicago's Center position?
I do.

I'm not comparing Gortat to Noah,because they've different skill sets,but certain players are better for the TEAM on different teams.......even though they may not be superior to the next guy in their class. Hope that makes sense...

Frye benefitted from Gortat....i'm not sure Gortat benefitted from Frye though.....Gortat needs another aggressive scoring bigman next to him....which would only make Frye a very nice first bigman off the bench with his skill set.

 

[Covert Rain]

Gortat is not averaging double digit rebounds. He is getting about 1 rebound more per game than what Amare Stoudemire got in the same minutes.

Sorry but players that consistently get 8-9 rebounds a game are dime a dozen in the league. It is not going to be enough if Gortat only gets rebounds and does nothing else.

First off Gortat does more than just get rebounds. He plays decent defense and he also scores. He also is only .7 away from 10. You act like its the grand canyon. lol.

Once again slinslin you make comments without any facts.

Currently only 4 Centers in the league average more than 10+ rebounds per game.

Currently only 7 Centers in the league average more than 9 - 9.9 rebounds per game.

Currently only 6 Centers in the league average more than 8 - 8.9 rebounds.

So, in fact they are NOT a dime a dozen in this league. If you take out those Centers that are actually PF, than this list is even thinner. Having a center in this league that even comes close to 10 is a commodity. The PF position in the NBA is where rebounders tend to be a tad deeper but not by much.

With a full season under his belt if he averages .7 more rebounds, Gortat would crack the top 5 centers in league in that category.

That would mean Gortat would be top 10 in at least 5 different categories at center.

Top 10 in efficiency
Top 10 Scoring
Top 5 in Center Rebounding overall
Top 5 in Defensive Rebounding
Top 10 Center Double Doubles ( I bet he cracks top 5 here too).

This doesn't even account for the Suns sudden boost from the bottom of the league to top 15 with points in the paint. That doesn't even account for the Suns being the worst rebounders in the league at the center position pre-trade (#30) and catapulting to Top 10 at the center position post trade.

You want to argue he is not a top 10 center still? You want to put money on the table now he gets that extra .7 in rebounds with a full season?

Let me know.

 

[slinslin]

How about instead of adjusted +/- look at Win Shares per 48 minutes (an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes). In this stat Gortat (.151 WS/48) ranks 2nd on our team (behind Nash with .153 WS/48) and 7th among the centers in the league. What's your explanation for this stat? Is it just a fluke or something else?

Here is link to basketball-reference.com WS/48 stats: bkref.com/tiny/j4ty4

Oh, and hi guys. My first post

At the point of the argument Gortat was at around -15...

 

[slinslin]

No its not Slin....because its a TEAM game. Certain players make others certain players better....as a result of chemistry and what certain players bring to the floor.

It is and it is completely illogical to say that Frye gets more rebounds now because Gortat gets more rebounds.

What happens when 2 good rebounds get to be on the same team? Their rebounding numbers go down.

Frye has become a better rebounder because he got better, not because Gortat is a better rebounder. That is my point.

 

[Covert Rain]

At the point of the argument Gortat was at around -15...

slinslin....."at the point of the argument"?? Really?? What does that mean exactly?!?!?

When Gortat barely had 10 games under his belt as a starter "at the point of the argument" applied to many statistics. However, you continued to make the same tired argument about +/- with nothing else to back up your argument that he wasn't very good and Lopez was just as good.

People have posted stat after stat that counters your points on Gortat vs. Lopez left and right since the trade.

Can't you just give the guy his due? Seriously. Nobody is saying he is the next "anything" but you devalue the guy and act like he is Joe Klein when in reality he may be one of the best centers in the league given a full season.

 

[slinslin]

slinslin....."at the point of the argument"?? Really?? What does that mean exactly?!?!?

When Gortat barely had 10 games under his belt as a starter "at the point of the argument" applied to many statistics. However, you continued to make the same tired argument about +/- with nothing else to back up your argument that he wasn't very good and Lopez was just as good.

People have posted stat after stat that counters your points on Gortat left and right.

Can't you just give the guy his due? Seriously. Nobody is saying he is the next "anything" but you devalue the guy and act like he is Joe Klein when in reality he may be one of the best centers in the league given a full season.

HE IS AN AVERAGE STARTER and none of your arguments dispell that. I am not going to argue with you anymore because if you can't see that Gortat is NOT a top 10 center in the league you are just biased.

And no I didn't make the +/- argument multiple times. I argued it in one thread and I was right. Just because the majority here fails to understand the statistic they are not right. Gortat put up numbers in the first 10 games as a Sun but he had no impact at all on winning games on the contrary.

That has improved since unfortunately our record overall has been worse too.

 

[Covert Rain]

HE IS AN AVERAGE STARTER and none of your arguments dispell that. I am not going to argue with you anymore because if you can't see that Gortat is NOT a top 10 center in the league you are just biased.

And no I didn't make the +/- argument multiple times. I argued it in one thread and I was right. Just because the majority here fails to understand the statistic they are not right. Gortat put up numbers in the first 10 games as a Sun but he had no impact at all on winning games on the contrary.

That has improved since unfortunately our record overall has been worse too.

LOL. So lets get this straight.

• So he has several examples of #'s that are not average but he is average? Despite all the stats we have posted throughout all these threads that say he is not. Correct?

• Your ONE AND ONLY ASPECT of +/- that you hang your hat on proves your point beyond all the other stats that dispute your point is all that matters. Correct?

• Nobody on this board understands +/- on this board but you despite many of us posting information about +/-. Also the other parts of +/- that don't support your argument don't matter. Correct?

• Because the Suns were not winning that speaks to Gortat being average yet Nash isn't average even though the team was not winning. Amare is not average either even though the Knicks suck. So losing and being average only applies to players of your choosing. Correct?

Does that about sum it up?

Really? Wow slinslin. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You have yet to post enough of anything to support your argument compared to the stack of evidence the other way. Like I said before...either your hate of Gortat is blinding you or your love of Lopez is. Either way, it's unhealthy man.

 

[gordon]

It is and it is completely illogical to say that Frye gets more rebounds now because Gortat gets more rebounds.

What happens when 2 good rebounds get to be on the same team? Their rebounding numbers go down.

Frye has become a better rebounder because he got better, not because Gortat is a better rebounder. That is my point.

No, Frye doesn't get more rebounds, because Gortat gets more rebounds. Frye gets more rebounds because of Gortat's defense and boxing out. More missed shots = more balls to rebound.

 

[Covert Rain]

No, Frye doesn't get more rebounds, because Gortat gets more rebounds. Frye gets more rebounds because of Gortat's defense and boxing out. More missed shots = more balls to rebound.

Case and point...I believe the last year Horace Grant played for the Bulls (the year that Dennis Rodman came), Horace had the best rebounding year of his career despite Rodman putting up insane #'s. I thought I remembered them making a big deal about when Orlando was vying for Horace to come there.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Case and point...I believe the last year Horace Grant played for the Bulls (the year that Dennis Rodman came), Horace had the best rebounding year of his career despite Rodman putting up insane #'s. I thought I remembered them making a big deal about when Orlando was vying for Horace to come there.

horace never played with Rodman.

 

[Covert Rain]

horace never played with Rodman.

Yep...your right. I looked it up. I must have been thinking of someone else. When I have time I will try to research who I thought it was. I remember someone Rodman playing with having a career year in rebounding despite Rodman coming to that team.

First thing that goes is the memory.

 

[sunsfan88]

HE IS AN AVERAGE STARTER and none of your arguments dispell that. I am not going to argue with you anymore because if you can't see that Gortat is NOT a top 10 center in the league you are just biased.

IMO he is a top 5 center in the West.

If you argue with that, please tell me 5 centers that are better than him in the West.

 

[SirStefan32]

IMO he is a top 5 center in the West.

If you argue with that, please tell me 5 centers that are better than him in the West.

I am sure Slin will come up with a list of 10, including Oden.

 

[BC867]

No, Frye doesn't get more rebounds, because Gortat gets more rebounds. Frye gets more rebounds because of Gortat's defense and boxing out. More missed shots = more balls to rebound.

Plus, Frye began the season as our Center and he is too soft for that.

Gortat's arrival as a legitimate Center (and the departure of the soft Hedo at Power Forward) moved Channing to a position that would not overwhelm him as much.

I cannot understand how any Suns fan would have reason to dis Gortat, his performance and his potential. Especially with the obstacle course Gentry set up for him, playing starter minutes off the bench without a break for the rest of each half once he came in.

And missing twelve important minutes each game alongside Nash. Is there another team in the NBA who would not play their best Center-Point Guard combination, with the PF and Wing positions filling in the rest? Not if they want to be better than mediocre.

 

[Suns_fan69]

IMO he is a top 5 center in the West.

If you argue with that, please tell me 5 centers that are better than him in the West.

It's close, I'd go something like

Perkins
Bynum
Camby
Chandler
Gortat
Marc Gasol

But... Camby is ancient and Chandler is always hurt, so Gortat likely gets the nod over those 2 as well.

 

[sunsfan88]

GOrtat is better than Perkins. Their both defensive minded centers but Gortat has a better offense.

Bynum is probably the only one from that list I would say is "easily" better than Gortat.

 

[sunsfan88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntd4eRA-OEk&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rl1a2Dx5mw&feature=player_embedded#at=20