2011 Draft Thread

[Covert Rain]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=6407176

Some excerpts from the article. And everyone who thinks this is just a single case is just naive. It is like that or similiar with many of the top recruits.
The education is just a token argument and worth nothing in many cases. As if those universities recruit these guys with the thought of making sure they get a good education and work hard in the classroom.

For every example that you can come up with, I bet there are at least 10 athletes who get quality educations. The stories that make the media are not the successful athletes who work hard and have productive college experiences. It's only the bad examples that ever make the press.

 

[Cheesewater]

It's an age requirement, not an education requirement, right? Is the rule that a prospective player has to go to college?

 

[slinslin]

Kemba Walker:

In a Sports Illustrated interview, the 20-year-old made a "ridiculous" admission: He's just finished his first book, William C. Rhoden's Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete. "That's true," Walker told SI. "You can write that. It is the first book I've ever read."

Yeah so he read one book and finished his degree. Must be quality education.

 

[elindholm]

And Eric, you can't seriously tell me that a basketball prospect develops better playing college basketball under different rules, in limited practice time compared to being able to fully dedicate themselves to basketball under the best professional conditions in the NBA against better players.

It's hard to know. NBA players and coaches often say that there is very little time to practice, with such a heavy schedule of games and travel. I think you'd agree that very few NBA players improve their fundamentals after entering the league.

There is just no way that Lebron James with 3 years of college experience is a better and more mature player than Lebron James with 3 years of professional experience. Just NO WAY

I'm not as persuaded as you are by the self-evidence of that statement. What did James improve during his first three years in the NBA? His shooting, I guess, maybe his passing. What did he fail to improve? Leadership, attitude, decision-making. Which package would be more valuable to him right now?

you also made him waste 3 years of his professional career for an education he doesn't need and probably doesn't want.

I'm not interested in the "education" they receive, which I agree in the case of top athletes is usually minimal. But remember, many NBA coaches say that it's really not possible to have authority over players who are already making several million dollars per year. Maybe a LeBron James who hadn't made the big time yet would have been a better basketball student than the already-anointed pro he was at 18 years old.

 

[BC867]

Did you go to college? I did and it absolutely taught me those things and I think it does for most people.

My experience as well. Going from living in my parents' house as a high schooler -- summer jobs to pay for dating and ballgames and concerts -- to being on my own for the first time -- initially in a dorm, then a frat house -- transitioned me from being a kid to a responsible adult in the business world.

Could I have gone right from high school into management, overseeing other people? No.

Even if some kids had more responsibilities than I in high school, are they equipped to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year -- with all of its responsibilities?

College was a buffer in my case. The Minors are a buffer to Major League baseball players. The only buffer the NBA and NFL have are college basketball and football.

There will always be exceptions, but the system must be able to protect the best interests of the majority.

Perhaps if professional sports did not pay obscene salaries of hundreds of thousands or millions per year for throwing a ball around, it wouldn't be an issue. But that is another story.

 

[Folster]

I think you guys are close to convincing Slin.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think you guys are close to convincing Slin.

LOL

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you guys are close to convincing Slin.

ha. classic.

personally, i could care less about whether or not those guys have the right to go to the NBA... I just think a two year mandate makes for a better NCAA and better league.

 

[chickenhead]

How do geography classes prepare you for life? College attempts to do one thing teach you knowledge that helps you find a job. (And most companies I know of will tell you that most graduates are not at all prepared for the jobs they get but instead learn while on the job)
It doesn't teach you to be mature or how to use your money.

To be fair, a large number of college students pay for their own education. Presuming they graduate and pay off whatever student loans they may have, I call that both being mature and being smart with money. I know we're talking about elite athletes who will make millions, but thought it was worth pointing out.

 

[Folster]

ha. classic.

personally, i could care less about whether or not those guys have the right to go to the NBA... I just think a two year mandate makes for a better NCAA and better league.

Agreed.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think you guys are close to convincing Slin.

 

[JCSunsfan]

ha. classic.

personally, i could care less about whether or not those guys have the right to go to the NBA... I just think a two year mandate makes for a better NCAA and better league.

I think the players would be better off in many ways too.

 

[slinslin]

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Alec-Burks-Video-Breakdown-3692/

I believe Burks is the player that is the best fit for us and we should make sure to get him.

Shooting Guard is one our weak spots. Good ball handling skills, can drive with both hands, good passer, great rebounder, very good in transition and isolation. Needs to work on his shooting and that is about the only skill the Suns have been succesful in teaching...

 

[BC867]

I believe Burks is the player that is the best fit for us and we should make sure to get him.

Shooting Guard is one our weak spots. Good ball handling skills, can drive with both hands, good passer, great rebounder, very good in transition and isolation. Needs to work on his shooting and that is about the only skill the Suns have been succesful in teaching...

That is an interesting dilemma. Do you set your sights on a Shooting Guard who needs to work on his shooting and hope that he can be taught?

Or, if you are going to choose a Shooting Guard, choose one who has shown proficiency in shooting prior to the draft.

As much as I've touted the importance of all-around play, Shooting Guard is the position that most emphasizes the need for a steady 20 PPG average and a pure shooter with the game on the line.

 

[slinslin]

Eh how many of the top shooting guards or in general guards were good shooters when they were drafted? Few.

 

[Covert Rain]

That is an interesting dilemma. Do you set your sights on a Shooting Guard who needs to work on his shooting and hope that he can be taught?

Or, if you are going to choose a Shooting Guard, choose one who has shown proficiency in shooting prior to the draft.

As much as I've touted the importance of all-around play, Shooting Guard is the position that most emphasizes the need for a steady 20 PPG average and a pure shooter with the game on the line.

In the NBA guys that are used to driving in college don't get to do so as much in the NBA game. They are going against guys that can keep you in front of them and even if you get by them you end up running into trees on the front line.

Give me the guys that can shoot versus the guy that can penetrate but "might" be able to learn to shoot any day of the week.

Eh how many of the top shooting guards or in general guards were good shooters when they were drafted? Few.

I am not sure that is true. Which of "top shooting" guards below were bad shooters coming into the NBA? You said "few" meaning most of the guys were NOT good shooters coming into the NBA. At a quick glance, many of these guys were drafted because they were good shooters when they were drafted.

Top SG in the NBA by FG%
Jodie Meeks
Kevin Martin
Ray Allen
Rudy Fernandez
Arron Afflalo
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Eric Gordon
Marcus Thornton
Gerald Henderson

Top SG in 3PT %
Ray Allen
Arron Afflalo
Gary Neal
Marco Belinelli
J.J. Redick
Jodie Meeks
Kevin Martin
Sasha Vujacic
Marcus Thornton
Eric Gordon

 

[slinslin]

Whats your point? That is not how they were when they were drafted.

Eric Gordon shot 33% in college from 3. Marcus Thornton 43/37. Harden 49/35. Afflalo 46/37. Henderson 45/33.
Kobe shot 41/37 as a rookie...

My point is that "needs to improve his jumpshot" is a valid is for about 90% of the players that are drafted.
Improving the jumper is probably one of the easiest tasks as long as the form is decent.

Alec Burks 47/29/83.

Players that lack ball handling, shot creation, passing skills rarely improve those considerably later on.

 

[Covert Rain]

Whats your point? That is not how they were when they were drafted.

My point is that you said very few top SG were good shooters when they were drafted. That's not true. Good shooting is good shooting even if you managed to get a little better in the NBA.

My point is that "needs to improve his jumpshot" is a valid is for about 90% of the players that are drafted.

That was not your point before and most coaches will tell you that 100% of the players they draft need to improve in something. Had that been your point I would have agreed with you.

I have seen some guys improve but I have not seen a guy go from being a poor shooter to a good shooter in general that often. I have not seen a bad rebounder become a good rebounder.

So, that's why I was saying that if you really want a good shooter at the SG spot, your better off taking a guy that can already shoot. That's why when people were saying that Lopez was the answer to our rebounding problems when he was drafted I disagreed. Most of the time if your bad at something in college that stays true in the Pro's. Not always but most of the time.

 

[PhxGametime]

Alec Burks or Jordan Hamilton would be the SG's that I'd be interested in. PF would be the other position but who knows who'd be there - I like Tristan Thompson and Jan Vesely possibly there at #13. Biyombo isn't likely to be on the board and I'd hope with good workouts that in my next tier (Trey Thompkins, Chris Singleton, JaJuan Johnson, etc.) a Prospect would move up to that range. I'm not as high on the Morris twins and I don't know much about the International players, other than Biyombo and Vesely.


If a top tier PG drops, I could live with that too (Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, etc.) but I don't have a lot of gamefilm on the Jimmer Fredette's, Reggie Jackson's, Josh Selby's; of the Draft.


Terrence Jones would be hard to pass up as well, even though the Suns really don't need ANOTHER small forward...

 

[slinslin]

My point is that you said very few top SG were good shooters when they were drafted. That's not true. Good shooting is good shooting even if you managed to get a little better in the NBA.

And what is the point to bring up their current shooting numbers to support your argument?

Eric Gordon was not a really good shooter coming out of college. Kobe Bryant was not a good shooter as a rookie.

What you want in a SG is not just shooting, you also want shot creation abilities, isolation skills, slashing skills, ball handling.. Burks has all that. It is why people compare him to Evan Turner, Joe Johnson, Penny Hardaway type shooting guards.

 

[Covert Rain]

And what is the point to bring up their current shooting numbers to support your argument?

To prove they can shoot. What's part don't you get?

Eric Gordon was not a really good shooter coming out of college. Kobe Bryant was not a good shooter as a rookie.

He shot 43%. He is shooting 45% in the NBA. So, it's not like he learned to shoot in the NBA. That actually supports my argument. He has also slightly gotten better at 3PT shooting. There was not a significant jump.

What you want in a SG is not just shooting, you also want shot creation abilities, isolation skills, slashing skills, ball handling.. Burks has all that. It is why people compare him to Evan Turner, Joe Johnson, Penny Hardaway type shooting guards.

If you can get all that great. However, usually you are forced to pick between a guy that can shoot versus a guy that can penetrate. There are more examples of average shooters in college that don't improve in the NBA then there are average shooters in college that do significantly improve.

By the way I don't consider Alec Burks a bad shooter. He shot 49.5% from the field. It's his 3 Point shot that leaves alot to be desired. He can't knock it down. I would suspect like Gordon he might slightly improve but it's not like you can turn him into a 40% 3 point shooter.

I still like Burks because he looks to me like one of those guys that can score a bunch of different ways. I am just not convinced he will ever be a consistent 3 point threat. If the Suns keep the current system in place his 3 point shooting is going to be a hindrance IMO. If the Suns change up our system I think he could be a valuable addition.

 

[BC867]

Did you go to college? I did and it absolutely taught me those things and I think it does for most people.

Here is a timely article about young kids in the draft (in this case, the NFL, but it applies to the NBA, as well).

Jared Allen of the Vikings was on Phoenix radio talking about how some of these young draftees came wearing $40,000 earrings, never having played pro ball and not even knowing if there is going to be a season.

It is a valid point.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/sh...g-police-Vikings-star-rips-roo?urn=nfl-wp1890

 

[Mainstreet]

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Alec-Burks-Video-Breakdown-3692/

I believe Burks is the player that is the best fit for us and we should make sure to get him.

Shooting Guard is one our weak spots. Good ball handling skills, can drive with both hands, good passer, great rebounder, very good in transition and isolation. Needs to work on his shooting and that is about the only skill the Suns have been succesful in teaching...

I'd like to see the Suns draft Burks as I believe he not only possesses huge upside as a SG but I believe he can play some PG. However, I do not believe he will last until #13. I haven't made up my mind about PF.

 

[tobiazz]

College taught me how to attend classes and take tests. Of course, I already had about 12 years of training in that.

The aspects of college that foster maturation (moving away from home, paying bills, etc.) will occur in some form for almost everyone whether they attend college or not.

The elite athletes ear-marked for professional leagues have very little to gain from schooling and generally take fluff classes. Aside from a few extreme outliers, students don't have the time to excel in sports and worthwhile degrees. Were I an elite athlete I would certainly head straight for a professional league rather than risk injury, while being exploited, to acquire a communications degree on which to "fall back on."

There was a great Real Sports episode that went along with the following teaser with anecdotes of Ed O'Bannon and others.

http://www.hbo.com/real-sports-with...68-episode/video/college-sports-part-one.html

 

[tobiazz]

Both Stoudemire and James have had their own issues which could well be related to turning pro too soon, although it's impossible to say for sure. Stoudemire has been hurt a lot. The eye thing was a fluke, but maybe some time in college would have taught him how to take better care of his knees and back. He almost certainly would have gotten some training in defense and boxing out, which he still lacks, and which will probably prevent him from reaching his potential as a player. As for James -- who is now 26, by the way, and has been in the league for eight seasons, so no longer exactly a youngster -- his continued immaturity is obvious, he has shown almost no leadership in the playoffs, and he still hasn't figured out that NBA games are about more than how good he can make himself look. Would some time in college have helped him? It seems like a distinct possibility.

I'd hate to think of how bad Hakim Warrick would be at boxing out and defending had he not attended four years of college.

The only two high-school players who have gone on to become stars on championship teams are Bryant and Garnett. Bryant is the son of an NBA player and grew up in Europe, so he is a special case in every possible sense. Garnett was like James for most of his career, failing to show real leadership in the playoffs and wearing out his welcome with each new teammate within a couple of years. Finally he lucked into the situation in Boston, but does one title as a second fiddle really count him as a success story for the high-school group?

Moses Malone was one.

As you know, most of the recent championships are attributed to Jordan, Olajuwan, Duncan, and Shaq. They all played 2+ years of NCAA ball. Being that they are all exceptional athletes and/or competitors I would think they would have earned championships if they had skipped college, but who knows, schooling may have worked out well for them.

Calling the non-college players (ignoring Bryant and Garnett) inferior for not breaking into the ranks of the above four players would be as unfair as doing the same for the college players that failed to do so.