2012 Free Agency news

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
36,784
Reaction score
15,893
Location
Arizona
So your saying the suns had no chance of beating san antonio in the western conference finals?? Thats rediculous. The east was such garbage at the time that the western conference finals was basically the finals. I remember the one season when the suns actually had a leg up on San Antonio and then the Joe Johnson injury happend and amare go suspended.

And the suns have beaten plenty of great defensive teams throughout the years, it was only popavich who knew how to slow the suns

Ofcourse they had a chance. Like I have a chance winning the lottery. Someone could have gotten injured for example but what kind of arguement is that? There is a reason the Suns never got over the hump. There is a reason why the Suns couldn't get the offensive plays needed or defensive stops needed at the end of games. That's a fact.

When was the last time the Suns beat a superior defensive team when it counted in a 7 game series in the WCF?

Almost only counts in horseshoes. If that was the criteria the arena would have no room left in the rafters after 50 years. Instead we have 50+ years fun and currently the most winning franchise in any sport still without a title.

how are you calling anything ridiculous when you don't even remember what actually happened in any of the above series? When did the Suns EVER have a leg up on the Spurs? Each time they played during their heyday (05/07) we lost HCA in game 1 BOTH times. And JJ wasn't even on the team when Amare was suspended.

and you can say what you want about the East, but during that stretch, the Pistons were a VERY good team, having won 1 title and then they took SA to 7 the next year. There's no way the '05 team would have beaten that Pistons team. They always gave DA's teams fits, even after their hey-day.

And the Spurs just owned us. Plain and simple. We played them twice, with HCA and lost those two series by a combined total of 3 wins-8 losses, going an absolutely PATHETIC 1-5 at home in those series.

+1
 
Last edited:

Joe Mama

Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
9,501
Reaction score
964
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Again, the two biggest problems with those teams were the lack of a bench in the inability to get big stops. But those were not necessarily symptomatic of the SSOL. Those are problems with the coaching and the personnel.

Joe
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
36,784
Reaction score
15,893
Location
Arizona
Again, the two biggest problems with those teams were the lack of a bench in the inability to get big stops. But those were not necessarily symptomatic of the SSOL. Those are problems with the coaching and the personnel.

Joe

Remember SSOL preached for their wing players to leak out after shot attempts to setup easy transition buckets. That meant little to no emphasis on crashing the boards. That usually resulted in a ton of put backs and second chance opportunities for the opposing teams.
 

Joe Mama

Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
9,501
Reaction score
964
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Remember SSOL preached for their wing players to leak out after shot attempts to setup easy transition buckets. That meant little to no emphasis on crashing the boards. That usually resulted in a ton of put backs and second chance opportunities for the opposing teams.

sure, they may have given up a few rebounds because of that, but I guarantee you they scored three times as many points because of that system as they lost because the wings weren't focused on rebounding. Besides, I never said the system is perfect. I just think it's a bit ridiculous to say that you can't win a championship with it just because we didn't do it.

I don't necessarily want to see SSOL, but I would like to see a team that plays strong defense and then runs it down the other team's throat.

Joe
 

NashDishesDimes

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Posts
1,875
Reaction score
634
Ofcourse they had a chance. Like I have a chance winning the lottery. Someone could have gotten injured for example but what kind of arguement is that? There is a reason the Suns never got over the hump. There is a reason why the Suns couldn't get the offensive plays needed or defensive stops needed at the end of games. That's a fact.

When was the last time the Suns beat a superior defensive team when it counted in a 7 game series in the WCF?

Almost only counts in horseshoes. If that was the criteria the arena would have no room left in the rafters after 50 years. Instead we have 50+ years fun and currently the most winning franchise in any sport still without a title.





+1

Look below, tell me game 1 and game 5 couldnt have gone in another direction hadnt it been for Parker gashing Nash's nose and that ****** robert horry for the outrageous suspensions for game 5. Secondly, the fact that their defense wasnt great had some to do with the system but a lot more to do with the players involved. The only above average defenders on the 07 roster for instance, was marion and bell. Nash, stoudemire, and diaw were way below average. Secondly, they had no bench. I think those two things had a lot more to do with it than the offensive system.

Your going to tell me that when you were watching those games that you thought they had a similar chance of winning the series to you winning the lottery??

Get out of here with that garbage, the suns were great. Im sick of a lot of people in here bashing everything that is, and was good about the Suns

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The Spurs and the Suns met in 2007 NBA Playoffs in a heated second-round series that many later described as having been "the real finals."

Game 1 was played on May 6 at the US Airways Center in downtown Phoenix. The Spurs won 111–106. Late in the fourth quarter, Steve Nash bumped heads with Tony Parker, who had possession of the ball. Nash sustained a deep cut on his nose that bled profusely for the remainder of the game. His nose was bandaged and tended to by the team trainer, but Nash was in and out of the game as the wound continued to bleed through the bandages. It was the first time this postseason that Nash did not record a double-double. Tim Duncan and Tony Parker led the Spurs with 32 and 33 points, respectively. Nash led the Suns with 31 points, while Amar'e Stoudemire scored 20 and pulled down 13 boards.

Game 2 was played May 8 at the US Airways Center. The Suns blew out the Spurs 101–81 to even the series at one game apiece. Mike D'Antoni's decision to have Kurt Thomas guard Tim Duncan helped Amar'e Stoudemire focus on offense, scoring 21 of his 27 points in the second half. Tim Duncan scored 29 points while Tony Parker and Bruce Bowen both had 13 points.

Game 3 was played on May 12 in San Antonio. The Spurs beat the Suns 108–101 as Tim Duncan rallied for 33 points and 19 boards. Manu Ginobili got a bloodied and bruised eye when he collided with Shawn Marion. The Spurs then led the series 2–1.

Game 4 was played on May 14 in San Antonio. The Suns trailed by as many as 11 points throughout the third quarter. The Suns took the lead near the end of the fourth quarter when Steve Nash fed Stoudemire to make the game 100–97. Then came the foul that "nudged the Spurs-Suns rivalry from friendly toward cantankerous."[4] Robert Horry knocked Nash into the scorer's table at mid-court. Raja Bell left the bench area and was given a technical foul. Horry was charged with a flagrant foul and ejected. The Suns won 104–98, knotting the series at 2–2. Nash finished the game with 24 points and 15 assists.
On May 15, the NBA announced that Horry would be suspended two games for the flagrant foul against Nash and striking Bell's shoulder. Amar'e Stoudemire and Boris Diaw were also suspended one game each for leaving their bench during the altercation. [7] [8] Coach D'Antoni was not happy with Stoudemire and Diaw's suspension saying the next morning after the teams workout: “We have the most powerful microscopes and telescopes in the world in Arizona, [and] you could use those instruments and not find a shred of fairness or common sense in that decision. That's kind of how it feels. It really benefits no one. It doesn't benefit us, obviously. It doesn't benefit the Spurs. It doesn't benefit the fans. It doesn't benefit the NBA."

Game 5 was played May 16 at the US Airways Center. After leading by as many as 16 points in the second quarter and ahead 79–71 with 5:18 to play, Bruce Bowen hit a three-point shot with 36.4 seconds to go ahead and the Suns lost the game by a score of 88–85. The Suns, without Stoudemire and Diaw because of the aforementioned one-game suspension, were led by Shawn Marion who scored 24 points and collected 17 rebounds; all but four of those points were scored in the second half. Kurt Thomas, playing in place of Stoudemire, had 15 points and 12 rebounds. Steve Nash finished with 19 points and 12 assists. Manu Ginobili scored 15 of his 26 points in the final quarter to lead the Spurs to the late rally as the Suns ran out of energy down the stretch.

Game 6 was played May 18 in San Antonio, Texas. The return of Boris Diaw and Amar'e Stoudemire caused Phoenix some concern about the game.[citation needed] Phoenix started the game matching the Spurs shot for shot. After trailing at halftime 53–51, Phoenix believed that they were going to force a Game 7 back in Phoenix, but a big third quarter by San Antonio put the Spurs up by as many as 20. In the fourth quarter, the Suns rallied by starting to hit big shots. But in the end, it was not enough as San Antonio ousted the Suns en route to their fourth NBA championship.
 
Last edited:

mojorizen7

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Posts
9,165
Reaction score
472
Location
In a van...down by the river.
Again, the two biggest problems with those teams were the lack of a bench in the inability to get big stops. But those were not necessarily symptomatic of the SSOL. Those are problems with the coaching and the personnel.

Joe
I'm trying to stay out of this debate but....
Those teams' inability to get stops was a direct result of the SSOL system and its personnel Joe. Come on...you're an intelligent fan. You must know all of this.

First the offense...
The system called for fast,unselfish,athletic players that could get out and run,fill the lanes,receive Nash's passes and get a shot up quickly before the defense could settle in and matchup. There were no "bad shots." The more possessions the better...that put alot of pressure on the other team to keep up physically and on the scoreboard....works great when the shots are falling.

I dont care how good your PG or your shooters are but 3 point shots aren't high percentage shots which is another area where the Suns got continually exposed in the post season. Our "go to" shot in crunch time was setting weak screens to set up Nash or other shooters to try and win it 22 feet from the basket....while the other team would just throw it in to the post and either get a high % shot or get to the foul line.


The defensive end was spent looking for deflections in the passing lanes and anticipating the missed shot to get out and run back...
Watching an undersized frontline run the volleyball tip-drill to get defensive rebounds was also a staple of futility.
but that was pretty much the extent of the defensive philosophy. Get the ball back and score quickly so we can get the ball back and score again...

Its a miracle that Kurt Thomas was even allowed to set foot on the court....and to be honest he didn't play enough.

I never want to see that crap again here in PHX.
 

SirStefan32

Krycek, Alex Krycek
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
18,497
Reaction score
4,913
Location
Harrisburg, PA
I dont care how good your PG or your shooters are but 3 point shots aren't high percentage shots which is another area where the Suns got continually exposed in the post season. Our "go to" shot in crunch time was setting weak screens to set up Nash or other shooters to try and win it 22 feet from the basket....while the other team would just throw it in to the post and either get a high % shot or get to the foul line.

Of all the things that pissed me off about SSOL, that was the most frustrating one. Suns would be doing great, and then the other team would start pressuring and trapping Nash, which would result in turnovers and missed shots, while the other team (usually San Antonio) would throw the ball to their go-to guy in the low post.

:bang::bang::bang:
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
36,784
Reaction score
15,893
Location
Arizona
I just think it's a bit ridiculous to say that you can't win a championship with it just because we didn't do it.

Joe

Still not tracking. It's ridiculous to say that you can't win a championship with SSOL and below average defense when it has not been done EVER in the NBA???

We have seen first hand that the system can be put to a screeching halt with a methodical half court team that plays defense. Every time we have been eliminated it has been the same story.

In contrast we have seen teams win titles that have good defensive and various levels of offensive success.

I just don't get what your saying because all the evidence points in the opposite direction.

Your going to tell me that when you were watching those games that you thought they had a similar chance of winning the series to you winning the lottery??

During the heat of those games when the score was close I was thinking they had a chance just like any other fan. However, when you take a step back and look at the repeated patterns of losses every time the Suns were bounced the patterns were the same.

The Suns for VARIOUS reasons still couldn't get a bucket when it counted. The SSOL system failed to produce points late in games. The Spurs practically shut down transition and shut down quick 3's. Go back and watch the games. They forced Nash to over dribble time and time again. They forced the Suns into bad shots in close games which is the opposite of what it is suppose to do.

I would completely agree with your point if each game was an isolated incident but it was the same pattern repeating itself over and over in the SSOL era.


Get out of here with that garbage, the suns were great. Im sick of a lot of people in here bashing everything that is, and was good about the Suns

First off I never said the Suns were not a great offensive team. One of the best I have ever seen. So don't put words into my mouth. However, unlike you, I don't absolve the Suns for their inability to play defense for huge stretches and being shut down when it counted.

To acknowledge the good but ignore the bad is garbage.
 
Last edited:

mojorizen7

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Posts
9,165
Reaction score
472
Location
In a van...down by the river.
Game 1 was played on May 6 at the US Airways Center in downtown Phoenix. The Spurs won 111–106. Late in the fourth quarter, Steve Nash bumped heads with Tony Parker, who had possession of the ball. Nash sustained a deep cut on his nose that bled profusely for the remainder of the game. His nose was bandaged and tended to by the team trainer, but Nash was in and out of the game as the wound continued to bleed through the bandages. It was the first time this postseason that Nash did not record a double-double. Tim Duncan and Tony Parker led the Spurs with 32 and 33 points, respectively. Nash led the Suns with 31 points, while Amar'e Stoudemire scored 20 and pulled down 13 boards.
Should've had a competent backup PG on the roster by then. Problem is no one can run Nashball except Nash.
No contingency plan available =FAIL
Game 5 was played May 16 at the US Airways Center. After leading by as many as 16 points in the second quarter and ahead 79–71 with 5:18 to play, Bruce Bowen hit a three-point shot with 36.4 seconds to go ahead and the Suns lost the game by a score of 88–85. The Suns, without Stoudemire and Diaw because of the aforementioned one-game suspension, were led by Shawn Marion who scored 24 points and collected 17 rebounds; all but four of those points were scored in the second half. Kurt Thomas, playing in place of Stoudemire, had 15 points and 12 rebounds. Steve Nash finished with 19 points and 12 assists. Manu Ginobili scored 15 of his 26 points in the final quarter to lead the Spurs to the late rally as the Suns ran out of energy down the stretch.
If your rotation only goes 7 deep and you lose a player(or two) to injury or suspension then you've got to pay the piper.
A must-win home game that they were in a position to win but couldn't guard anybody down the stretch due to fatigue and being weak defensively to begin with.
Game 6 was played May 18 in San Antonio, Texas. The return of Boris Diaw and Amar'e Stoudemire caused Phoenix some concern about the game.[citation needed] Phoenix started the game matching the Spurs shot for shot. After trailing at halftime 53–51, Phoenix believed that they were going to force a Game 7 back in Phoenix, but a big third quarter by San Antonio put the Spurs up by as many as 20. In the fourth quarter, the Suns rallied by starting to hit big shots. But in the end, it was not enough as San Antonio ousted the Suns en route to their fourth NBA championship.
Again they couldn't get stops when they needed them and its not like the Spurs were running an elaborate offense that disguised where the points were coming from. The Suns just seemed to always leave guys open or get beat to the offensive rebounds.

IMO that Suns team was the last,best chance at winning anything important. It was slightly deeper and slightly more balanced...but in the end they couldn't make a shot when they needed one and could never get stops at crunch time.

F ing broken record :bang: FUN? ...more like intensely FUTILE in my opinion.

It was fun to finally smack S.A. around in '09 though :)
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
20,366
Reaction score
11,462
Well, at least David Khan isnt running our organization. The Timberwolves offer sheet to Nick Batum has been voided by the league because the Wolves didnt have the cap space.

That guy is such a clown.
 

carey

VVVV Saints Fan VVVV
Joined
Nov 2, 2002
Posts
2,071
Reaction score
4
Location
New Orleans
Well, at least David Khan isnt running our organization. The Timberwolves offer sheet to Nick Batum has been voided by the league because the Wolves didnt have the cap space.

That guy is such a clown.

Huh? They haven't even offered it yet. They're waiting for Martell Webster to clear waivers on Sunday. Where'd you read that?
 

carey

VVVV Saints Fan VVVV
Joined
Nov 2, 2002
Posts
2,071
Reaction score
4
Location
New Orleans
No they already had him sign it and the league ruled it invalid and told them Batum will need to sign a new contract on Sunday.

http://www.csnnw.com/pages/landingb...atum-did-sign-th=1&blockID=740004&feedID=5212

Ohhh, I see. He was trying to get the signature in advance so it would already be signed when they were ready on Sunday I guess. Kind of dumb, but not that big of a deal. Not like he signed the deal and they turned it in to the league and the Blazers.
 

CardsFan88

ASFN Addict
Joined
May 28, 2002
Posts
7,642
Reaction score
4,742
SSOL I believe has been described as everything we did during that time.

There are different aspects of it.

The part most liked and want to see return is the fast breakness of SSOL, which is really what gave us a scoring advantage.

SSOL was never a half-court offense, it was about going the length of the floor and creating mismatches and mental errors. Usually from a player leaking out, Marion was the best we had at it and really made SSOL fly. Not just from his leaking out, but he was a ballhawk who created many of the opportunities from his steals. We also had Joe Johnson who was competent in stop and pop-ing or taking it to the rim for a dunk or lay up. Or Amare trailing behind.

The SSOL fastbreak was a net addition. It was our lack of half court offense at the time that was the negative.

Our defense obviously was atrocious, but this wasn't really SSOL related. One guy leaking out only draws a bit off the rebound numbers, that is IF the shot doesn't go in to begin with.

There were lots of reasons why our teams never made it.

$arver
Donaghy
Broken Face
Horry and the suspensions
Lack of a center
Horrible defense in the half-court
Horrible offense in the half-court
Lack of a backup pg
Probably more

We also had young players who were never given the chance to grow together on one end, to Amare, who always has been and probably always will be a guy who makes critical errors that he clearly should not have.

We were derailed on many fronts from bad luck to bad owner to bad defensive philosophy and players.

Had we even had a guy like Gortat any of those years things could have been different. Lots of if's, and we were shortchanged by everything besides SSOL.

We're combining too many things together and forgetting that we were below average in some areas, and far superior in others. It's not the desire to get back to being that proficient in those areas that will hold us back, it's being content with this and not addressing big deficiencies that would be.

If we want to get back to running a SSOL, you need a guy like Marion, in every sense of the word, except a shot better than a 6th grader. He and others like him created the opportunities for Nash. Nash was a great pg to cash in on them, but he was reactionary to many of them.

We might already have a pg on this roster that can play that role, we just don't have any Marion's.

If we get this aspect back, it may once again hide our deficiencies, but once again get us a shot at a title again. Hopefully next time, if there is one, we actually address those deficiencies, not have a streak of bad luck, and $arver doesn't screw it up.

SSOL wasn't the problem. It was the other aspects of those teams. We could have won the championship despite those deficiencies if some crazy and self inflicted events didn't occur. We could have won had we made a few personnel tweaks.

Basically it is possible to have SSOL & have a good half court offense & a sufficient even good half court defense.

Let's also not forget the Spurs of the past decade are probably one of the top 10 team eras of the NBA, so we lost to a really good historical team.

Hopefully we get fa's and draft players that fit this mold.
 
Last edited:

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
20,366
Reaction score
11,462
Ohhh, I see. He was trying to get the signature in advance so it would already be signed when they were ready on Sunday I guess. Kind of dumb, but not that big of a deal. Not like he signed the deal and they turned it in to the league and the Blazers.

I'd think thats the kind of thing that could get the Wolves in a lot of trouble if the league felt like making a stink about it. What if Batum decides to sign the Blazers qualifying offer, but the Wolves have his sig on this other contract?

Its not a likely scenario but CBA, and legal-wise it could potentially be a big problem. And its just one more thing that has made Khan look like a dope.
 
Last edited:

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
6,416
Reaction score
3,600
Location
Phoenix, AZ
How humilating is it to be Robin Lopez right now. Your twin brother is making the max and you can't even get a contract offer in a league starved for guys over 7 feet tall.

Makes me question why they're called identical twins.
 

overseascardfan

ASFN Addict
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Posts
8,807
Reaction score
2,096
Location
Phoenix
Makes me question why they're called identical twins.

To be fair to Robin, Brook is not worth the max. Sure the guy will give you 17 PPG but he is a subpar rebounder for being 7 ft tall and playing at least 30 mpg. Also, Roy Hibbert shouldn't be making the max either when 13 ppg & 9 rpg are your best season in 4 years.

The reason these guys got the max is because one is really good offensively and the other is really good defensively and Robin isn't really good ay either. Plus Brook Lopez & Roy Hibbert are being paid on potential of getting better, I just don't see Robin getting any better than he is.
 
OP
OP
Griffin

Griffin

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Posts
3,726
Reaction score
1
Location
EU
Heywood claimed by Charlotte off waivers. Milicic cleared waivers.

I'm guessing the Suns will most likely re-sign Lopez now that cap space opened back up.
 

NashDishesDimes

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Posts
1,875
Reaction score
634
Lou admundson i believe is still an unrestricted FA, id rather see him start than Frye/Queiff

Bring back lou! He was awsome off the bench, great boost of energy
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,253
Reaction score
59,868
At one time Amundson was the Suns poor man's version of Kenneth Faried.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
556,153
Posts
5,433,902
Members
6,329
Latest member
cardinals2025
Top