2012 Free Agency news

[Mainstreet]

I hope you mean the Hornets and not the city.

Who doesn't love New Orleans... the city.

However, I did root for the Saints when they won the Super-bowl in 2010 after the hurricane and all.

 

[Phrazbit]

As long as the Suns don't dump picks to move salary they might be better off trading the picks for young talent. They are terrible at drafting. Maybe if the Suns get a top three draft pick they can keep it.

If the Suns dont learn to draft they will never be good... so you just gotta pray they learn to do it better. Giving picks away for the chance to sign other guys is a huge reason we're in this mess.

 

[Mainstreet]

If the Suns dont learn to draft they will never be good... so you just gotta pray they learn to do it better. Giving picks away for the chance to sign other guys is a huge reason we're in this mess.

The Suns didn't give the picks away, they sold them or used to move perfectly good players like KT.

The last really good pick the Suns had (and kept) was years ago when they drafted Amare when JC was still around.

 

[95pro]

looks like the nugz are keep mcgee

 

[Phrazbit]

The Suns didn't give the picks away, they sold them or used to move perfectly good players like KT.

The last really good pick the Suns had (and kept) was years ago when they drafted Amare when JC was still around.

I dont know where what I said didnt translate into giving picks away...

Yes, they dumped picks so they could stupidly move KT, or stupidly sign Banks instead of having Rondo, or stupidly sign Q-Rich instead of draft Iguodala.

I do think they're done with selling picks, Sarver has probably learned his cost cutting measure on unreliable picks cost him far more with bad contracts to awful free agents.

But, my point stands. If the Suns dont use the draft well then they will not be good. Period. No team can whiff on picks and give picks away and find even remote success. Trading picks so we can sign 'young players' will only result in us severely overpaying for young players other teams have already given up on.

 

[Mainstreet]

Attached is a link to an article written by Paul Coro at azcentral dated 7-18-12 describing where the Suns are at in in off season moves. Coro must have been on vacation or such as his presence has been missed.

Suns Managing Partner Robert Sarver advocated adding Dragic and Scola, but the Suns apparently are putting the brakes on major signings. Instead, they could turn to bringing back Shannon Brown for another one-year deal rather than engaging in a battle for Courtney Lee and creating Houston Rockets West with a third starter from a team that also didn't make the playoffs.

Brown would fill an off-guard need and preserve cap space for a run at a major free agent such as James Harden next year.

Dragic would start a full season for the first time and be backed by rookie Kendall Marshall, whose necessary development could mean Sebastian Telfair winds up elsewhere. Telfair grew on everyone last season, improving his play to be the Majerle Hustle Award winner. His practice intensity was good against veteran Ronnie Price but he will not tolerate being a third guard and would be hard on Marshall daily if he stays.

Gortat, who had the ill-advised request of asking for No. 13 to honor Nash, is the roster's lone center for now. The expectation that Lopez would demand a starter-sized contract has not surfaced for the restricted free agent, although teams have made unappetizing sign-and-trade proposals to Phoenix.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...r-after-grant-hill-steve-nash-make-exits.html

I would hate to lose Telfair as the backup PG because Marshall has not showed me is is NBA ready... maybe never will be. I can't help but wonder who defended Marshal when he came to the Suns for pre-draft workouts.

 

[elindholm]

If the Suns' goal is to develop what young talent they have at the expense of competing, then it makes sense to let Telfair go. But the idea that needing to earn backup PG minutes "would be hard on Marshall" is pretty lame.

 

[Mainstreet]

If the Suns' goal is to develop what young talent they have at the expense of competing, then it makes sense to let Telfair go. But the idea that needing to earn backup PG minutes "would be hard on Marshall" is pretty lame.

His practice intensity was good against veteran Ronnie Price but he will not tolerate being a third guard and would be hard on Marshall daily if he stays.

I think this is what the Suns should want as you point out. I believe there needs to be a fierce competition between Telfair and Marshall for the second PG position. Who is to say that Marshal will ever be an NBA caliber PG. Telfair is young enough.

 

[KloD]

The bit concerning Marshall is just conjecture on Coro's part. No need to judge the Suns on said plan yet. Let's see how they play it out.

 

[Covert Rain]

The most interesting part of todays article I highlighted below. It's also probably why I am so frustrated with this front office. It seems the goal is to always to just enough to keep the ship from sinking but never fix the ship. The Suns are putting an awful lot of faith in being able to trade for a franchise player down the road, sign a franchise player or get really freaking lucky drafting in the teens constantly.

______________________________
The Suns could wind up being worse next season but adding a reliable, proven big man such as Scola on a high-value contract won't let them bottom out, to a lesser extent of what Nash's presence did amid a declining talent level in the past two seasons.

Suns Managing Partner Robert Sarver advocated adding Dragic and Scola, but the Suns apparently are putting the brakes on major signings.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...hill-steve-nash-make-exits.html#ixzz216KMHEcb

 

[Mainstreet]

I think luck can be created by putting yourself in a position to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think luck can be created by putting yourself in a position to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.

There is a huge difference between putting yourself in position to draft 1-5 and putting yourself in position to constantly draft in the teens. Seems to me the Suns are not that intent on "creating" the kind of luck we need to get a franchise player.

 

[devilalum]

There is a huge difference between putting yourself in position to draft 1-5 and putting yourself in position to constantly draft in the teens. Seems to me the Suns are not that intent on "creating" the kind of luck we need to get a franchise player.

There are PLENTY of busts in the 1-5 range.

 

[Covert Rain]

There are PLENTY of busts in the 1-5 range.

No doubt but are you more likely to get a franchise player 1-5 or drafting constantly late in the 1st round?

 

[Mainstreet]

No doubt but are you more likely to get a franchise player 1-5 or drafting constantly late in the 1st round?

How does Nash, Marion, Amare and Johnson fit in your 1-5 drafting model. Yes, I know the Celtics drafted Johnson. Probabilities are not a sure thing. Hanging out at the bottom is not something I'd want the Suns to do. If it happened naturally I could accept it but not as a philosophy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How does Nash, Marion, Amare and Johnson fit in your 1-5 drafting model. Yes, I know the Celtics drafted Johnson. Probabilities are not a sure thing.

no, but so far, this FO has made a sure thing of NOT getting those type of players in the late lottery. The brain-trust behind Nash/Marion, Amare/JJ is LONG-GONE and that brain-trust was VERY GOOD in evaluating talent in the loate lotto or outside the lotto for a very long time (Majerle, Wes Person, Ceballos, Finley, Oliver Miller, Dumas... ALL either very good contributors/difference makers, none of which came in the lotto under that group. This group has given us the likes of nothing coming even close to that.

And not only that, but that draft isn't nearly what it was when those guys were in it. There's no high school players anymore and that's where teams could REALLY strike gold in and out of the lotto, where totally unproven guys like a McGrady/Amare/Jermaine O'Neal/Kobe all went 9th or lower. That opportunity simply doesn't present itself anymore because with a year of college under kid's belt, if they've got that super-star talent, they are much better known commodities and thus taken much higher than the 9th pick.

and you list Marion above... well... I'm not sure why. The guy isn't close to being a franchise player that any team desperately needs to move him into the upper echelon. and Nash is the exception to basically EVERY rule of basketball.

Hanging out at the bottom is not something I'd want the Suns to do. If it happened naturally I could accept it but not as a philosophy.

here's my problem with this... you don't like the hanging out at the bottom as a philosophy, but at least there there is SOME chance of getting a true difference maker. The Suns current philosophy is hanging out in the middle... or just below it and that dooms them to stay in that position prety much forever IMO. That I can't accept.

 

[Mainstreet]

no, but so far, this FO has made a sure thing of NOT getting those type of players in the late lottery. The brain-trust behind Nash/Marion, Amare/JJ is LONG-GONE and that brain-trust was VERY GOOD in evaluating talent in the loate lotto or outside the lotto for a very long time (Majerle, Wes Person, Ceballos, Finley, Oliver Miller, Dumas... ALL either very good contributors/difference makers, none of which came in the lotto under that group. This group has given us the likes of nothing coming even close to that.

And not only that, but that draft isn't nearly what it was when those guys were in it. There's no high school players anymore and that's where teams could REALLY strike gold in and out of the lotto, where totally unproven guys like a McGrady/Amare/Jermaine O'Neal/Kobe all went 9th or lower. That opportunity simply doesn't present itself anymore because with a year of college under kid's belt, if they've got that super-star talent, they are much better known commodities and thus taken much higher than the 9th pick.

and you list Marion above... well... I'm not sure why. The guy isn't close to being a franchise player that any team desperately needs to move him into the upper echelon. and Nash is the exception to basically EVERY rule of basketball.

You're right the current Suns brain trust is not what it used to be but it shows it can be done, even drafting a two time MVP at #15. The high school players did provide some interesting talent if a team guessed right. As I recall the Suns were interested in Kobe but just didn't make the move to get him. Marion was a star player for the Suns. I'm not going to make the argument he was a franchise player but he was plenty good.

here's my problem with this... you don't like the hanging out at the bottom as a philosophy, but at least there there is SOME chance of getting a true difference maker. The Suns current philosophy is hanging out in the middle... or just below it and that dooms them to stay in that position prety much forever IMO. That I can't accept.

I guess I could not remain a Suns fan if their philosophy was to remain bad until they got lucky in the draft. Too many teams have tried it and failed. I just cannot embrace the philosophy of losing. IMO, the better philosophy is to hire the smartest FO one can find and let them run the organization.

 

[Covert Rain]

How does Nash, Marion, Amare and Johnson fit in your 1-5 drafting model. Yes, I know the Celtics drafted Johnson. Probabilities are not a sure thing. Hanging out at the bottom is not something I'd want the Suns to do. If it happened naturally I could accept it but not as a philosophy.

You are bringing up the exception not the rule. If I show you the last 30 years of picks it's not even a contest. I didn't say it wasn't possible (by the way Marion is not a franchise player) what I am saying is that you are hedging your bets on much longer odds versus drafting in the lower part of the 1st round.

here's my problem with this... you don't like the hanging out at the bottom as a philosophy, but at least there there is SOME chance of getting a true difference maker. The Suns current philosophy is hanging out in the middle... or just below it and that dooms them to stay in that position prety much forever IMO. That I can't accept.

Exactly.

 

[Mainstreet]

You are bringing up the exception not the rule. If I show you the last 30 years of picks it's not even a contest. I didn't say it wasn't possible (by the way Marion is not a franchise player) what I am saying is that you are hedging your bets on much longer odds versus drafting in the lower part of the 1st round.

I think you are bring up this statistics argument which was discussed ad nauseum. It is still based upon an argument of probabilities. It can fail in real life.

 

[Griffin]

No doubt but are you more likely to get a franchise player 1-5 or drafting constantly late in the 1st round?

The real question is whether it is more likely to acquiare your franchise player by drafting 1-5 or via other means (trade, free agnecy, later draft picks).

Interestingly, since Jordan won his last title, the only franchise players taken 1-5 to win a title with the team that drafted them are Dwayne Wade and Tim Duncan.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think you are bring up this statistics argument which was discussed ad nauseum. It is still based upon an argument of probabilities. It can fail in real life.

Meaning what exactly? The statistical probability of me winning the lottery is stacked against me. That can fail in real life too. It does not make it anymore likely that it will happen.

The real question is whether it is more likely to acquiare your franchise player by drafting 1-5 or via other means (trade, free agnecy, later draft picks).

Interestingly, since Jordan won his last title, the only franchise players taken 1-5 to win a title with the team that drafted them are Dwayne Wade and Tim Duncan.

Agreed Griffin. I have said that the Suns most likely scenario to get a franchise player is through a trade of some sort. The Suns have not seemed to be able to get one through Free Agency (Nash being the last). So, that means if no trades are available and no LeBron is going to come here....you end up praying for the draft. I just prefer the Suns to take a look at every opportunity for said player. Praying for a miracle at pick 18 doesn't seem to be a very sound strategy.

 

[Mainstreet]

Meaning what exactly? The statistical probability of me winning the lottery is stacked against me. That can fail in real life too.

It does not make it anymore likely that it will happen.

Sort of making the argument for me. It is a crap shoot.

See link below to see where this argument goes.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/i-do-not-propose-to-rate-posters-read-please-181727.html

 

[Mainstreet]

Agreed Griffin. I have said that the Suns most likely scenario to get a franchise player is through a trade of some sort. The Suns have not seemed to be able to get one through Free Agency (Nash being the last). So, that means if no trades are available and no LeBron is going to come here....you end up praying for the draft. I just prefer the Suns to take a look at every opportunity for said player. Praying for a miracle at pick 18 doesn't seem to be a very sound strategy.

My contention is a team should hire the best front office they can find. I thought you were into drafting 1-5 to build your franchise.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sort of making the argument for me. It is a crap shoot.

See link below to see where this argument goes.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/i-do-not-propose-to-rate-posters-read-please-181727.html

Read through all that before. If I am going to shoot craps, I would rather roll knowing there is something to win on the table. If I don't win at least I know I had a chance. If I am constantly drafting 18 where the talent is ALWAYS questionable you might just admit your not trying to build a title contender. You are probably content with making your team good enough to sell tickets and do what you have done for 50+ years.

My contention is a team should hire the best front office they can find. I thought you were into drafting 1-5 to build your franchise.

I am not advocating that is the only way to build the franchise. What I am saying is that if you are going to build through the draft, building with picks late in the first round is not the way to do it if your team is showing the inability to sign a franchise player through FA or trade for one.

I would rather the team not limit themselves to get such a player. Why not simply exhaust every avenue you have to get the next franchise player?

Who cares if you win 30 games versus 40 by singing mediocre talent and drafting players late in the 1st round that probably won't be with the franchise beyond their rookie contracts? By doing that you are putting all your eggs into I hope the Suns can sign a franchise FA or Trade for one basket. You want to do that with this FO? Because it appears we are stuck with it.

 

[Phrazbit]

Forget tanking, forget the opportunity to draft stars...

Even if all you want is for the Suns to do their best to compete each season, that does NOT justify the direction they appear to be going.

NO ONE has had any measure of success by building around expensive role players in free agency. It just doesnt work.