2013 Summer League

[sunsfan88]

Yeah, once Bennett was off the market I was hoping for a trade down to Minnesota and McCollum. I know a lot of people were downgrading him because of his age/experience advantage but he'd have been a solid pick. I don't expect him to be a star but he looks to be starter quality and it would be nice to have someone that could score.

Steve

Yea he was the guy I wanted the Suns to draft prior to the draft.

Even if Minny didn't want to trade down, I would have loved it if we had taken McCollum at #5.

 

[sunsfan88]

can't learn how to be athletic.

He could learn to shoot. Andre Miller, JJ Barea, Steve Nash weren't really all that athletic and still pulled out nice long careers.

 

[binkar]

Just watched the game...

I actually thought Marshall looked much, much better. He seemed quicker, better defensively, and more confident in his shot. He should have had 5-7 more assists than he did. I still don't think he'll ever be more than a backup PG, but I think he's getting better.

The Morris's looked like they usually do. They both can be solid role players in the league. Not much more. I still would like to see Markeiff care more about rebounding than he seems to.

I'm excited to watch Archie develop. He obviously has a long ways to go, but you can see the talent there. He needs to tighten up his handle a bit, but he's aggressive and I love a guard who can consistently get to the free throw line. He had a really impressive block today that was incorrectly called a foul.

Oriaki could be alright, but we didn't see much of him today. He made a few panic plays and seemed to be playing a bit too tight. I think he could be a decent energy big man down the line, but he has an uphill battle to make the roster.

I thought Dionte Garrett looked pretty bad. He doesn't stand a chance at making this team in my opinion.

CJ McCollum is going to be a good player, but once we out PJ Tucker on him he couldn't do a thing.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Just watched the game...

I actually thought Marshall looked much, much better. He seemed quicker, better defensively, and more confident in his shot. He should have had 5-7 more assists than he did. I still don't think he'll ever be more than a backup PG, but I think he's getting better.

The Morris's looked like they usually do. They both can be solid role players in the league. Not much more. I still would like to see Markeiff care more about rebounding than he seems to.

I'm excited to watch Archie develop. He obviously has a long ways to go, but you can see the talent there. He needs to tighten up his handle a bit, but he's aggressive and I love a guard who can consistently get to the free throw line. He had a really impressive block today that was incorrectly called a foul.

Oriaki could be alright, but we didn't see much of him today. He made a few panic plays and seemed to be playing a bit too tight. I think he could be a decent energy big man down the line, but he has an uphill battle to make the roster.

I thought Dionte Garrett looked pretty bad. He doesn't stand a chance at making this team in my opinion.

CJ McCollum is going to be a good player, but once we out PJ Tucker on him he couldn't do a thing.

In his defense Tucker did that to some pretty good established players last year, but yeah he will need to learn how to handle that type of pressure.

 

[sunsfan88]

I just watched the game on the NBA TV replay and I think Marcus Morris can be the stretch 3 that we need. He's a pretty good shooter.

And Marshall is so damn horrific. His passing is amazing but everything else is awful. McCollum was abusing him defensively and he still showed that he won't try and score the damn ball. He should have been the leader of the team, directing the offense and everything but no.

The Morris twins a had a good game but it's kinda embarrassing that Onuaku had more rebounds in less minutes than the Morris twins had combined. But they showed good leadership and didn't really make any noteworthy bad plays. Though for the Morris twins, they are expected to dominate the summer league being lottery picks and having more experience than anyone else on the floor and the team.

Christmas impressed me the most. He looked like he belongs in the NBA and he knew what he was doing. I hope he gets more minutes in the future so we can see what he can really do. I can see him taking Garret's spot on the roster.

Goodwin showed so much promise. It seemed like Portland was trying to punk him cause he's so young but he held his own. On one defensive possession, the guy he was guarding pushed him trying to get open and he came back and shoved him right back. He's very physical and I like that. On offense he did everything we expected him to. He drove in at will and there was really nobody with his speed and size to keep him out of the paint. And at the end of the 4th QTR he had some very impressive buckets in traffic and off nice moves.

He needs to get bigger though, that's for sure. But I'm (still) very excited for this kid.

 

[SunsTzu]

Just watched the game...

I actually thought Marshall looked much, much better. He seemed quicker, better defensively, and more confident in his shot. He should have had 5-7 more assists than he did. I still don't think he'll ever be more than a backup PG, but I think he's getting better.

I didn't watch the game so I don't have any context for how anyone looked aside from the stat sheet. I did find it interesting that for as poorly as people claimed Marshall played he was +14.

I'm excited to watch Archie develop. He obviously has a long ways to go, but you can see the talent there. He needs to tighten up his handle a bit, but he's aggressive and I love a guard who can consistently get to the free throw line. He had a really impressive block today that was incorrectly called a foul.

I too am very excited about Goodwin. He really stood out to me when watching him on Team USA. If he can develop any kind of consistent jumper he can be a truly devastating player with the way he can attack the rim.

 

[Sci Fi]

For those interested, you can go to ESPN3 and watch a replay. If you want to watch I'd do as soon as you can as during the regular season NBA replays are only available for about 24 hours, if that.

 

[Sci Fi]

I just watched the game again. Pretty good game for summer league, at least from the Suns.

Marcus Morris looked really good. Aggressive but under control. Very efficient scoring. He's a nice looking shooter. I think he starts a lot of games in his career. Very good trade for the 35th pick.

Markieff looked OK but he really has to learn how to play smarter.

Marshall is such an excellent passer it's too bad he can't move better. I love how he advances the ball without overdribbling. He caught a lot of Blazers sleeping in transition. Still, he got abused by McCollum. Garrett and Goodwin did as well though. Overall, though, I think he might be improving enough to be of some value in a future trade.

Goodwin is so raw but his shot looked a lot better than I expected. I've seen people raving about how he got to the basket but to me he was out of control. He needs a lot of work. I hope he goes to the D League immediately. He's not NBA ready just yet.

I love PJ Tucker. He's an animal. In the third quarter he went from guarding Thomas Robinson at PF and then moved over to the PG. Anyone know the deal on his rights beyond this year. Does he become an unrestricted FA at year's end.

Of the subs only Onuaku stood put to me. He's a man mountain inside. IN the D League he average 14.5 rebounds per 36 so his performance last night was no anomaly. He's had a history of injuries but he might be someone the Suns can fix. Third string center?

Overall, I hope they play the vets a bit less so we can see come of the other guys.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Why stuff Goodwin in the D-league? I think getting minutes now would be more beneficial to his development

 

[AzStevenCal]

Why stuff Goodwin in the D-league? I think getting minutes now would be more beneficial to his development

He definitely needs to get the court time but I'm not sure playing him 20+minutes in the NBA will be very good for his confidence. As we are really better off in the long run losing a lot of games this season I would keep him up and play him regularly but Bledsoe needs a lot of PT too.

Steve

 

[Joe Mama]

I just watched the game again. Pretty good game for summer league, at least from the Suns.

Marcus Morris looked really good. Aggressive but under control. Very efficient scoring. He's a nice looking shooter. I think he starts a lot of games in his career. Very good trade for the 35th pick.

Markieff looked OK but he really has to learn how to play smarter.

Marshall is such an excellent passer it's too bad he can't move better. I love how he advances the ball without overdribbling. He caught a lot of Blazers sleeping in transition. Still, he got abused by McCollum. Garrett and Goodwin did as well though. Overall, though, I think he might be improving enough to be of some value in a future trade.

Goodwin is so raw but his shot looked a lot better than I expected. I've seen people raving about how he got to the basket but to me he was out of control. He needs a lot of work. I hope he goes to the D League immediately. He's not NBA ready just yet.

I love PJ Tucker. He's an animal. In the third quarter he went from guarding Thomas Robinson at PF and then moved over to the PG. Anyone know the deal on his rights beyond this year. Does he become an unrestricted FA at year's end.

Of the subs only Onuaku stood put to me. He's a man mountain inside. IN the D League he average 14.5 rebounds per 36 so his performance last night was no anomaly. He's had a history of injuries but he might be someone the Suns can fix. Third string center?

Overall, I hope they play the vets a bit less so we can see come of the other guys.

really good analysis. Pretty much exactly the way I saw things although I have to admit I was turning back and forth from my computer to the TV at least some of the time. I would add that Garrett looked terrible to me… terrible.

I've been as critical of the Marshall pick as anybody here, but he looks so much better to me last night. You would have to hide him on defense though. McCollum abused everyone, but he flat out embarrassed Marshall a few times. I mean he left Marshall just standing stiff scratching his head.

Joe

 

[Folster]

I watched the game late last night and was encouraged by a lot of what I saw.

The Morris bros played well which I expected for 3rd year players. I was a bit annoyed by how much of the offense went through them early in the game, but neither guy was forcing too much or trying to dominate.

Marshall ran the team well but wasn't impressive. He did look quicker and leaner, but I think everyone looked leaner and that might have been the tight sleeved t-shirts more than anything. Marshall had a couple nice assists one of them being the alley-oop to Keef.

Garrett looked like he was on his way back to the D-league with turnovers and poor shooting.

Goodwin showcased his ability to initiate contact and draw the foul, something this team has been missing for decades. I liked what I saw from him when he was able to run the point late in the game. You can tell he is raw but the talent was there. One play in particular, he was double teamed off a pick and roll and he split the defenders and took it to the hoop. It reminded me of Dwayne Wade. I'd like to see him featured more in the second game and get some more time running the team.

I had trouble telling the big guys (Onuaku and Oriakhi) apart at times. It seemed that both of them displayed bad hands at times as they were unable to convert easy opportunities as a result, but they were both active and seemed to be able to move their feet on the perimeter and pop out nicely on the pick and roll. Onuaku's agility especially surprised me considering his build. I didn't know former 2nd round pick, Collins was going to be on the team. I didn't see enough of him to form an opinion.

I didn't see anything from any of the white dudes on the team to make me think they had a chance to make the roster.

Christmas showed potential, but seemed to be forcing the action to make the most of the little floor time he got.

Hopefully, Hornacek starts limiting time for the Morris twins after the 2nd game so everyone else can get a fair look. They'll continue to dominate most of the offensive touches as long as they are out there as they should be doing. Horny also needs to play the twins as if they were only allowed 6 fouls. This is their third year and should be able to manage their fouls better than what we saw out of Keef.

 

[binkar]

I didn't watch the game but looking at the box score, it looks like Marshall had a typical Marshall type performance.

When is that kid ever gonna learn?

I just watched the game on the NBA TV replay and I think Marcus Morris can be the stretch 3 that we need. He's a pretty good shooter.

And Marshall is so damn horrific. His passing is amazing but everything else is awful. McCollum was abusing him defensively and he still showed that he won't try and score the damn ball. He should have been the leader of the team, directing the offense and everything but no.

The Morris twins a had a good game but it's kinda embarrassing that Onuaku had more rebounds in less minutes than the Morris twins had combined. But they showed good leadership and didn't really make any noteworthy bad plays. Though for the Morris twins, they are expected to dominate the summer league being lottery picks and having more experience than anyone else on the floor and the team.

Christmas impressed me the most. He looked like he belongs in the NBA and he knew what he was doing. I hope he gets more minutes in the future so we can see what he can really do. I can see him taking Garret's spot on the roster.

Goodwin showed so much promise. It seemed like Portland was trying to punk him cause he's so young but he held his own. On one defensive possession, the guy he was guarding pushed him trying to get open and he came back and shoved him right back. He's very physical and I like that. On offense he did everything we expected him to. He drove in at will and there was really nobody with his speed and size to keep him out of the paint. And at the end of the 4th QTR he had some very impressive buckets in traffic and off nice moves.

He needs to get bigger though, that's for sure. But I'm (still) very excited for this kid.

This is getting obnoxious. You're going so far out of your way to bag Marshall that it's gotten to the point of just making stuff up.

Marshall was a +14 last night for good reason. The offense ran exponentially better when he was in the game, and he put people in perfect position to score a number of times, some of which they failed to convert on. His shot looked better, and he did a better job of attacking the basket. I saw noticeable improvement over last year.

The guy may never be a solid NBA player, but just coming in here and making stuff up and put a negative spin on everything is just wrong and obnoxious.

 

[Sci Fi]

Why stuff Goodwin in the D-league? I think getting minutes now would be more beneficial to his development

There are several ways one could look at this. A simple argument would be that he's not good enough to play now. Who can he beat out in the rotation next year? No one that I can see. I wouldn't have a big objection with this reasoning but I think there's a better answer.

The real question to me is what's the best way to develop him at this point in time? To do that, you'd have to make an accurate assessment of where he's at so you could make the appropriate plan. Well, the experts said he wasn't NBA ready and should have stayed one more year in college. I agree. And last night during the game the sideline reporter was discussing Goodwin and said the Suns view him as a 2014 lottery pick they were able to acquire in 2013. That seems like a good place to start rather than all this hyperbole comparing him to Kobe and Wade. Let him be Archie Goodwin and take it from there. No pressure to contribute now but plan for next year.

So why the D League? To be honest, he didn't exactly tear up the college level. He and the supposed best player in the country couldn't get their team in the NCAA tourney. So the jump up to the NBA is too much. The D League is perfect. He can go down there and get big minutes with no pressure to perform. Work on his game and keep learning how to play. He really won't get the needed time on the Suns. Then after 40 game or so, evaluate where the Suns are. If playoffs are out at that time, bring him up and give him a go. Otherwise, keep him down there playing and growing unless he explodes and he earns his way up. Regardless, bring him up late so he cuts his teeth.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There are several ways one could look at this. A simple argument would be that he's not good enough to play now. Who can he beat out in the rotation next year? No one that I can see. I wouldn't have a big objection with this reasoning but I think there's a better answer.

The real question to me is what's the best way to develop him at this point in time? To do that, you'd have to make an accurate assessment of where he's at so you could make the appropriate plan. Well, the experts said he wasn't NBA ready and should have stayed one more year in college. I agree. And last night during the game the sideline reporter was discussing Goodwin and said the Suns view him as a 2014 lottery pick they were able to acquire in 2013. That seems like a good place to start rather than all this hyperbole comparing him to Kobe and Wade. Let him be Archie Goodwin and take it from there. No pressure to contribute now but plan for next year.

So why the D League? To be honest, he didn't exactly tear up the college level. He and the supposed best player in the country couldn't get their team in the NCAA tourney. So the jump up to the NBA is too much. The D League is perfect. He can go down there and get big minutes with no pressure to perform. Work on his game and keep learning how to play. He really won't get the needed time on the Suns. Then after 40 game or so, evaluate where the Suns are. If playoffs are out at that time, bring him up and give him a go. Otherwise, keep him down there playing and growing unless he explodes and he earns his way up. Regardless, bring him up late so he cuts his teeth.

Agreed.

Steve

 

[Folster]

I hope we reconsider adding out own D-league affiliate in Prescott. It would be cool and easier to run it like a real minor league team.

 

[ProdigalSun]

There are several ways one could look at this. A simple argument would be that he's not good enough to play now. Who can he beat out in the rotation next year? No one that I can see. I wouldn't have a big objection with this reasoning but I think there's a better answer.

The real question to me is what's the best way to develop him at this point in time? To do that, you'd have to make an accurate assessment of where he's at so you could make the appropriate plan. Well, the experts said he wasn't NBA ready and should have stayed one more year in college. I agree. And last night during the game the sideline reporter was discussing Goodwin and said the Suns view him as a 2014 lottery pick they were able to acquire in 2013. That seems like a good place to start rather than all this hyperbole comparing him to Kobe and Wade. Let him be Archie Goodwin and take it from there. No pressure to contribute now but plan for next year.

So why the D League? To be honest, he didn't exactly tear up the college level. He and the supposed best player in the country couldn't get their team in the NCAA tourney. So the jump up to the NBA is too much. The D League is perfect. He can go down there and get big minutes with no pressure to perform. Work on his game and keep learning how to play. He really won't get the needed time on the Suns. Then after 40 game or so, evaluate where the Suns are. If playoffs are out at that time, bring him up and give him a go. Otherwise, keep him down there playing and growing unless he explodes and he earns his way up. Regardless, bring him up late so he cuts his teeth.

I guess my question/concern is whether the D-league is really all that useful in developing players. Do the coaches of the affiliated teams run similar concepts to the "big league club" equivalent to MLB farm teams? I was interested in seeing which notable NBA players spent significant time in the D league and google came up with a Sports Illustrated article mentioning Jeremy Lin, Chris Anderson, Marcin Gortat!, Matt Barnes, Jordan Farmar who I guess are solid but not spectacular.

So would Archie benefit more from playing 20+ minutes as a backup against established NBA players while getting coaching from Hornacek and our NBA staff running concepts and developing his skills with them versus playing as a starter and getting coaching from D league coaches running possibly different schemes and concepts? I admit that I don't know

 

[AzStevenCal]

I guess my question/concern is whether the D-league is really all that useful in developing players. Do the coaches of the affiliated teams run similar concepts to the "big league club" equivalent to MLB farm teams? I was interested in seeing which notable NBA players spent significant time in the D league and google came up with a Sports Illustrated article mentioning Jeremy Lin, Chris Anderson, Marcin Gortat!, Matt Barnes, Jordan Farmar who I guess are solid but not spectacular.

So would Archie benefit more from playing 20+ minutes as a backup against established NBA players while getting coaching from Hornacek and our NBA staff running concepts and developing his skills with them versus playing as a starter and getting coaching from D league coaches running possibly different schemes and concepts? I admit that I don't know

Neither do I. But, that seems to be the point of the D league and I'd guess we might as well try to take advantage of it as long as it's there. Unfortunately I can't remember any of our guys going down to the D League and returning all the better for it so it may well be a wasted effort but OTOH this might just be the first time we've had a player that could actually benefit from it.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

This is getting obnoxious. You're going so far out of your way to bag Marshall that it's gotten to the point of just making stuff up.

Marshall was a +14 last night for good reason. The offense ran exponentially better when he was in the game, and he put people in perfect position to score a number of times, some of which they failed to convert on. His shot looked better, and he did a better job of attacking the basket. I saw noticeable improvement over last year.

The guy may never be a solid NBA player, but just coming in here and making stuff up and put a negative spin on everything is just wrong and obnoxious.

He had 4 shot attempts I believe in 18 mins of playing time. That's not being aggressive and he may have done a better job of attacking the basket than he did last season but it was still pretty bad. He didn't attack and get to the FT line like he should have.

His +/- was good and everything but mostly everyone except for maybe 3 or 4 people had + numbers in that category. Portland was no match for us with their summer league team. And quite honestly, I don't really put much stock in +/- numbers anyway. Too many variables.

I will agree with you though that he set up players well and made a lot of very good passes. But he didn't show the type of improvement in the other aspects of his game like I expected him to.

 

[Sci Fi]

I guess my question/concern is whether the D-league is really all that useful in developing players. Do the coaches of the affiliated teams run similar concepts to the "big league club" equivalent to MLB farm teams? I was interested in seeing which notable NBA players spent significant time in the D league and google came up with a Sports Illustrated article mentioning Jeremy Lin, Chris Anderson, Marcin Gortat!, Matt Barnes, Jordan Farmar who I guess are solid but not spectacular.

So would Archie benefit more from playing 20+ minutes as a backup against established NBA players while getting coaching from Hornacek and our NBA staff running concepts and developing his skills with them versus playing as a starter and getting coaching from D league coaches running possibly different schemes and concepts? I admit that I don't know

You bring up some legitimate concerns. There really are very few examples of players going to the D League and ever being big successes. But really, every case is different. And with Archie being so young and inexperienced, it seems like the best route. Sure, it won't be perfect but remember the Suns sent a coach down with Marshall last year. They could do something similar. And it's not like the coaches down there are knuckleheads. Also, they could do something like 15 games down then back up for some coaching and then down for more game play.

The reason the experts recommended he stay in school was so he could get experience playing. I don't see him getting playing time. Who will sit so he gets his 20? Sure, the tankers will love it because he'll make the team worse but it's a bad way to run an organization.

 

[SirStefan32]

The reason the experts recommended he stay in school was so he could get experience playing. I don't see him getting playing time. Who will sit so he gets his 20? Sure, the tankers will love it because he'll make the team worse but it's a bad way to run an organization.

Well, the Suns' only SG is Shannon Brown. I realize Dragic and Bledsoe will play together most of the time, but when one of them is out of the game, who else are the Suns going to play at SG? I say let Archie play. What's the worst that can happen? We may lose an extra game or two- not really a bad thing, in my opinion.

 

[Sci Fi]

Well, the Suns' only SG is Shannon Brown. I realize Dragic and Bledsoe will play together most of the time, but when one of them is out of the game, who else are the Suns going to play at SG? I say let Archie play. What's the worst that can happen? We may lose an extra game or two- not really a bad thing, in my opinion.

Tucker?

 

[binkar]

He had 4 shot attempts I believe in 18 mins of playing time. That's not being aggressive and he may have done a better job of attacking the basket than he did last season but it was still pretty bad. He didn't attack and get to the FT line like he should have.

His +/- was good and everything but mostly everyone except for maybe 3 or 4 people had + numbers in that category. Portland was no match for us with their summer league team. And quite honestly, I don't really put much stock in +/- numbers anyway. Too many variables.

I will agree with you though that he set up players well and made a lot of very good passes. But he didn't show the type of improvement in the other aspects of his game like I expected him to.

Part of it is about making good decisions though. There is more to attacking than just shot attempts. When you drive to the lane, and the defenders collapse on you, the best play is often to kick out to your shooter, or find the guy in the post who's man left to help defend you. I thought he did a good job of this last night and made the right decisions. A good example of this was the play where he drove the lane, Archie's defender collapsed to help, and Marshall kicked out to Archie for a wide open three.

I don't care how many shot attempts he has as long as he's making the right play. That is going to change on a game to game basis depending on how the teams defend him. Frankly, I'm more worried about the games when defenders aren't collapsing on him to see if he can actually convert. If that's happening and he's still forcing the pass, then we have a problem, but I thought he made the right plays last night.

Again, I don't ever see Marshall as a starting point guard and I'm not a huge fan, but I did think he played a pretty decent game last night. A big improvement over what we saw from him last year IMO.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

really good analysis. Pretty much exactly the way I saw things although I have to admit I was turning back and forth from my computer to the TV at least some of the time. I would add that Garrett looked terrible to me… terrible.

I've been as critical of the Marshall pick as anybody here, but he looks so much better to me last night. You would have to hide him on defense though. McCollum abused everyone, but he flat out embarrassed Marshall a few times. I mean he left Marshall just standing stiff scratching his head.

Joe

Pretty good, sans his analysis of Marcus Morris. The Morris boys are 8-9-10 bench players on a half decent team. No chance either starts on a good team.

 

[Mainstreet]

Great comeback win by the Suns to beat Minnesota at the buzzer. The Morris twins really lit it up as did Marshall to pull out the win. Marcus hit the game winner. I'm liking Dionte Christmas as a FA keeper. Goodwin did not play well today.

http://www.nba.com/games/20130715/MINPHX/gameinfo.html