2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[slinslin]

If Ayton, Booker, and Bridges all pan out - do we really need a scoring point guard? No we need a distributor, and role players to put around them. Going after Wall is a very short sided move.

If Wall is not good enough of a distributor for you who else are we going to possibly find, lol.

The only real downside with Wall is that he is not an efficient shooter. He is a great passer.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Trading for Wall is like signing a free agent. He is locked up for a long time and will be overpaid, but so will any free agent we sign. I think I am agreeing with Slin here. I would rather over pay for a star player than over pay less for a mediocre player. My primary concern about Wall is his health. I hate to overpay for a player that cannot get on the court.

 

[elindholm]

So let me get this straight, you are happy with mediocrity? I'm not. If Ayton and Booker match their potential they really can be Kobe and Shaq 2.0.

It is more likely that Wall remains a strong contributor throughout the rest of his contract than it is that Booker/Ayton become Kobe/Shaq.

Wall a guy on the downside of his career who has a much larger contract.

What is your evidence that Wall is on the downside of his career?

One guy has Kobe like potential, the other is a declining point guard with a bad attitude.

If you've been paying attention this season, you've seen that "a declining point guard with a bad attitude" is in fact a perfect description of Booker. The present situation is extremely dangerous for the Suns and they have to be willing to pursue an aggressive solution.

 

[SirStefan32]

So let me get this straight, you are happy with mediocrity? I'm not. If Ayton and Booker match their potential they really can be Kobe and Shaq 2.0. But even if they do reach that potential they need some decent role players around them, especially in the era of super teams.

Seriously you are comparing Booker a 22 year old who is improving every year and is arguably a better player than Wall already with Wall a guy on the downside of his career who has a much larger contract.

No that is not a good comparison. One guy has Kobe like potential, the other is a declining point guard with a bad attitude.

So, I tend to agree with your larger point (No trading for Wall), but if Book and Ayton end up being Kobe and Shaq, then Wall, Bridges, Warren, and minimum players should be more than enough. Assuming Wall stays healthy (a big if, and the reason I would tend to be against trading for him), that gives you three legitimate stars, along with a couple of really good players in Warren and Bridges.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I keep going back and forth on the concept of trading for Wall and I keep coming to the same conclusion:. The Suns will most certainly be terrible for 3-4 years if Wall doesn't work out once his super max kicks in.

That is the major reason the Suns should not even consider Wall. Trading for him ignores his warts. He isn't the right age, has not gotten along with other ball dominant teammates, and his contract will keep severely hamper the team.

If the Suns were betting on LBJ, I'd take that bet, but to me this looks like it could be another Hardaway.

I’m in the same boat. Back and forth and back and forth. He will not come cheaply despite what everyone in here keeps wishing for. He’s obviously talented and likely available at a position of great need. But his not getting along with teammates, and alleged lack of effort defensively recently leads me to the scary potential conclusion that he will shortly become the most expensive locker room cancer of all time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Why is that? With Booker, Ayton, Wall, Bridges and the amount of future assets we have to finally assemble a solid productive bench we have absolutely ZERO reason to be bad next season.

Say we acquire Wall for Ryan Anderson and Okobo.

Then you can think about Jackson, Ariza, Milwaukee pick for Aaron Gordon, Julius Randle or Kevin Love and suddenly you have a traditional stacked lineup.

But as well as TJ is playing might just as well stick to Wall-Booker-Bridges-Warren-Ayton and bank on Ayton continous growth to cover for Warren's weak rebounding as a 4.

Make moves to acquire solid bench pieces and we should be a playoff team.

Wall for Anderson and okobo. Lol. Okay.

 

[taz02]

I do not believe the statement no free agent will sign here. The reason they haven't wanted to sign here is there was no hope of winning.

If Ayton and Booker develop, along with Bridges and Warren, we will be good enough to attract good free agents in a couple years. In fact we will be one of the hottest places to sign with.

..........A couple years? that is way too far out. The time is now.

We are close to turning the corner, I can feel it. The last thing we need to do right now is take on an albatross contract that destroys all flexibility for the next 5 years.

..........I think we are close to turning the corner too but we need a PG more than flexibility.

If Ayton, Booker, and Bridges all pan out - do we really need a scoring point guard? No we need a distributor, and role players to put around them. Going after Wall is a very short sided move.

..........Yes, especially if he also comes with defense and 9 assists per game. We are last in PPG or 2nd to last. I forget the exact number but I think we are 25ppg behind the highest scoring team. If we run into the problem of having too many scorers that would be a good problem to have.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No significant FA is going to sign here, hasn't happened in more than 10 years

Suns will have to grossly overpay for even a mid level free agent

The suns have a poor track record in the draft

The Arena is empty

The suns have been irrelevant for 8 years

Drafting another rookie that will take 2 seasons to maybe work out and signing a washed up vet to twice his worth are bad options IMO. Booker is our best PG option but do we really want him playing PG this season and likely next season if we draft a PG.

The team recently fired its GM, is irrelevant, boring, last in almost every statistical category, has an owner with a bad rep. and an empty stadium. Something bold and risky is needed to put this team on the map. Wall is an 18 and 9 PG that plays defense, if there were no health concerns and he was on a good contract he wouldn't be available.

If he washes out we are definitely screwed but that is the case with every max contract. If he plays well and stays healthy we will have a great team.

I say if the medical staff says he's good to go, why not. If there was a better option I'd be all for it.

Played good defense. That’s been rumored to be true in the last two seasons.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If Wall beats the odds and stays healthy, maybe with a little bit of luck we can hope to win 40 some games a year like the Wizards have done during their prime age Wall run. That's an average of 43 wins over the previous 5 seasons in the East so maybe we'd need to set our eyes a little lower in the West. But still, 43 wins a year, that's pretty sweet.

 

[Proximo]

If Wall is not good enough of a distributor for you who else are we going to possibly find, lol.

The only real downside with Wall is that he is not an efficient shooter. He is a great passer.

Yes, I understand he is a good distributor. But you can find just a good distributor for a heck of a lot smaller salary. The distributing part is 90% of what we need.

Look, if wall was only getting up to 30 million a year in his last year, I would probably be for the deal, but he's not.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Count me as another that vacillates on this. There's reports of him blowing up at a practice yesterday and getting fined for it as well. I guess the question that Jones (or whoever is calling the shots these days) needs to answer is whether this is just a case of somebody needing a change of scenery, or somebody struggling with the lasting impact of his prior injuries. I haven't watched John Wall at all this year - or even last year, really - so I have no speculation on this.

 

[Proximo]

Wall for Anderson and okobo. Lol. Okay.

Yes, I really think Wall for anderson, okobo/melton, and the milwaukee pick is a realistic deal.

His contract is toxic. The Wizards have to get rid of it. There are only two types of teams that might trade for him. One is a contender that thinks they need one more piece at pg to push them over the edge and they are overlooking the future.

The second is a really bad team that is desperate to attract talent at any price that is not in a bad shape financially.

Who is out there that fits those molds

For the first
Houston - no, Toronto - no, Boston - no, Milwaukee - no, OKC - no, Lakers - Maybe but doubtful, Philly no, I don't see a team out there that fits that description.

For the second - Phoenix, Cleveland?, New York?

It's a buyers market. If Washington wants to start over - and they do, getting rid of his contract is priority one, but there is not many teams that would want it.

 

[1Sun]

I have given this some further thought, particularly with respect to the alternatives to acquiring Wall in a trade. My ideal is still Kemba Walker or Damien Lillard, but I don't think there is any chance whatsoever the Suns acquire Lillard in a trade or sign or trade for Walker. Sadly, I think the current plan is either to overpay Rubio or Dragic as a stop-gap next summer or ride out our current point guard mess (including playing Booker out of position at the point and giving G-League fodder like Canaan significant playing time) with the hope that someday either Okobo, Melton or our 2019 first round pick eventually develops into a viable NBA point guard. In my opinion, either of those options dooms our team to irrelevance to the point of pretty much wasting Booker's contract extension (with him wanting out before it expires). As such, I think I am now of the opinion that before the season is over we need to trade for Wall (or some other viable NBA point guard other than Rubio or Dragic) at any cost other than Booker, Ayton, Bridges, one of Warren or Jackson (we need to keep at least one, if not both) and our own first round pick (unless it is lottery or at least top 5 or top 10 protected). The alternative is just too nauseating to me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes, I really think Wall for anderson, okobo/melton, and the milwaukee pick is a realistic deal.

His contract is toxic. The Wizards have to get rid of it. There are only two types of teams that might trade for him. One is a contender that thinks they need one more piece at pg to push them over the edge and they are overlooking the future.

The second is a really bad team that is desperate to attract talent at any price that is not in a bad shape financially.

Who is out there that fits those molds

For the first
Houston - no, Toronto - no, Boston - no, Milwaukee - no, OKC - no, Lakers - Maybe but doubtful, Philly no, I don't see a team out there that fits that description.

For the second - Phoenix, Cleveland?, New York?

It's a buyers market. If Washington wants to start over - and they do, getting rid of his contract is priority one, but there is not many teams that would want it.

I think it's most likely us, the Lakers or the Knicks. It might even make some sense for the Lakers although it would likely take them out of the Kawhi/Durant sweepstakes. For us, it would make me feel like the last 3 years of hell were for nothing. If all we cared about was being better than horrible we should have never gone down the "tanking" path.

 

[taz02]

I would argue that a max contract is almost always an over payment, except maybe Curry and Lebron.

So far this season Wall is averaging 21 and 8.

Career:

Booker - 3.3 rebounds, 3.7 ast, 0.8 steals, 20.0 ppg

Wall- 4.3 rebounds, 9.2 ast, 1.7 steals, 18.9 ppg + defense

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If Wall beats the odds and stays healthy, maybe with a little bit of luck we can hope to win 40 some games a year like the Wizards have done during their prime age Wall run. That's an average of 43 wins over the previous 5 seasons in the East so maybe we'd need to set our eyes a little lower in the West. But still, 43 wins a year, that's pretty sweet.

Eh I think we would have more upside as Ayton and bridges would improve. And hopefully JJ would. If all works out I could see them becoming a contender but everything would have to fall exactly right for us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes, I really think Wall for anderson, okobo/melton, and the milwaukee pick is a realistic deal.

His contract is toxic. The Wizards have to get rid of it. There are only two types of teams that might trade for him. One is a contender that thinks they need one more piece at pg to push them over the edge and they are overlooking the future.

The second is a really bad team that is desperate to attract talent at any price that is not in a bad shape financially.

Who is out there that fits those molds

For the first
Houston - no, Toronto - no, Boston - no, Milwaukee - no, OKC - no, Lakers - Maybe but doubtful, Philly no, I don't see a team out there that fits that description.

For the second - Phoenix, Cleveland?, New York?

It's a buyers market. If Washington wants to start over - and they do, getting rid of his contract is priority one, but there is not many teams that would want it.

He’s the face of their franchise. Contract or not they will want a bundle. The owner also loves him so he’s not giving him up for crackers.

 

[Proximo]

I think it's most likely us, the Lakers or the Knicks. It might even make some sense for the Lakers although it would likely take them out of the Kawhi/Durant sweepstakes. For us, it would make me feel like the last 3 years of hell were for nothing. If all we cared about was being better than horrible we should have never gone down the "tanking" path.

I really doubt the Lakers or Knicks are interested. They both have their sights on big time free agent signings, and being large markets, they have a realistic chance of that happening - at least a better free agent than Wall.

 

[Proximo]

He’s the face of their franchise. Contract or not they will want a bundle. The owner also loves him so he’s not giving him up for crackers.

Then they will keep him. Nobody is giving them a bundle for him. I just don't believe teams are that stupid.

 

[Chaplin]

I think it's most likely us, the Lakers or the Knicks. It might even make some sense for the Lakers although it would likely take them out of the Kawhi/Durant sweepstakes. For us, it would make me feel like the last 3 years of hell were for nothing. If all we cared about was being better than horrible we should have never gone down the "tanking" path.

How would the Lakers do a trade for Wall? They don't have any huge contracts except for Lebron. They would have to at least start with Rondo and KCP, their two largest contracts besides Lebron, and the two of them together only add up to half what Wall makes. I doubt their own draft pick has much value either since everyone and their mother thinks that Lebron is going to carry them to the finals by himself.

 

[Suns_fan69]

How would the Lakers do a trade for Wall? They don't have any huge contracts except for Lebron. They would have to at least start with Rondo and KCP, their two largest contracts besides Lebron, and the two of them together only add up to half what Wall makes.

I don't think that's quite true. Wall's mega contract hasn't kicked in yet and 'only' makes 19m this year. Rondo + KCP would do it but there's a couple complications that I'm not sure about (nor have the time to really research currently). First is that KCP would have to agree to the trade because of some obscure bird right rules, second is the 15% trade kicker that happens.

Some combination of Ball/Ingram/Stephenson/Beasley might do it if KCP can't be traded, but that's giving up on a lot of young talent.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Eh I think we would have more upside as Ayton and bridges would improve. And hopefully JJ would. If all works out I could see them becoming a contender but everything would have to fall exactly right for us.

I think eventually we would but for now and the next year or so, I'd say Wall had a noticeably superior supporting cast. But then, I don't think even Booker is fully developed and Ayton is much further away. Bridges just needs to learn the nuances of the NBA game and add a little muscle so he might actually be the closest to ready of the group (he and TJ).

 

[Hoop Head]

I like how we went from trading a 2nd round pick for the Clippers extra PG, either Beverly or Teodosic to now trading crappy expiring deals and players selected in the 2nd round this past year that haven't shown much of anything yet for Washington's franchise player. There really wasn't much of an in-between there, was there?

Washington doesn't want our crap. It will cost our 1st and Jackson, at the least, as well as Ariza to make the salaries work. If Wall doesn't work here, we're paying our backcourt 60% of the cap to miss the playoffs for the next 2 years until we're able to attach enough 1st's to Wall's contract to get someone to take him off our hands, probably in a Wall for Kevin Love swap which will be the 2021 version of Brandon Knight for Ryan Anderson. No thanks.

 

[elindholm]

Washington doesn't want our crap. It will cost our 1st and Jackson, at the least, as well as Ariza to make the salaries work. If Wall doesn't work here, we're paying our backcourt 60% of the cap to miss the playoffs for the next 2 years until we're able to attach enough 1st's to Wall's contract to get someone to take him off our hands, probably in a Wall for Kevin Love swap which will be the 2021 version of Brandon Knight for Ryan Anderson. No thanks.

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[JCSunsfan]

I like how we went from trading a 2nd round pick for the Clippers extra PG, either Beverly or Teodosic to now trading crappy expiring deals and players selected in the 2nd round this past year that haven't shown much of anything yet for Washington's franchise player. There really wasn't much of an in-between there, was there?

Washington doesn't want our crap. It will cost our 1st and Jackson, at the least, as well as Ariza to make the salaries work. If Wall doesn't work here, we're paying our backcourt 60% of the cap to miss the playoffs for the next 2 years until we're able to attach enough 1st's to Wall's contract to get someone to take him off our hands, probably in a Wall for Kevin Love swap which will be the 2021 version of Brandon Knight for Ryan Anderson. No thanks.

Washington is going to quickly realize that Wall's contract is a problem. Simply taking Wall's salary commitment off the books is a lot more than our "crap." For instance, Ariza is an expiring. Trading Ariza for Wall is in effect paying them $40 million for him. That is not crap.

Washington is also $30 million over the cap and $10 million over the lux tax, so there is that too.