2018 Draft: Wonderlic Scores of top QBs

GimmedaBall

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My only assumption of Cardinal fans was that they were smart enough to know something that has been accepted for decades now: That standardized tests are very discriminatory with regard to culture and economic diversity. That some of you wouldn't know this, is truly surprising. Allow me to educate those of you who criticized my statement.

"That the Wonderlic might have a built-in racial bias — like many standardized tests — is a common criticism. Studies have consistently found disparities in scores between white test takers and minorities, both among NFL players and people who are assigned the test for real-world jobs: the 2011 quarterback study, for instance, found that African-American QBs average a score of 20.2, while white QBs average 27.7.

It's unclear whether this sort of disparity is caused by an unfair test with questions that are inherently harder for minorities. But a 2012 study did find that NFL teams, on the whole, seem to interpret Wonderlic scores differently based on race: for a white player, a test score that's ten points higher leads to getting drafted 14.7 spots earlier, while for a black player, it only means a rise by 6.4 spots.

Companies other than the NFL that administer the Wonderlic to screen potential hires have repeatedly been sued on the grounds that the test is discriminatory. In 1971, as part of a case against Duke Energy, the Supreme Court ruled that because the test effectively discriminated on the basis of race and had no relationship with job performance, it couldn't be used."

There's a long history of concern regarding psychometric tests like the SAT, ACT, and in our case, the Wonderlic. Back in 1969, an educational psychologist Arthur Jensen, set off a firestorm of criticism over IQ tests when he suggested that there may be a genetic difference that was the root cause for the differences in IQ tests between different racial/ethnic backgrounds. His notion that it was genetic and 'nature.' The opposing view was that the tests are cultural and until the educational opportunity was equalized, IQ test were measuring that difference and not anything innate between the races, the 'nurture' side of the equation. That debate is still alive (even here in this football forum).

One clever twist on the tests like the SAT that came out during the Jensen firestorm in the 1970's was the test developed by black Professor Robert Williams who created the Black Intelligence Test of Cultural Homogeneity (or BITCH-100). The test was written using black cultural terms (at the time---some are dated today).
When we administered the test to black kids in St. Louis they averaged a 87/100 whereas the white kids in St. Louis got a 51/100.

Some sample BITCH questions here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110715...Intelligence Test of Cultural Homogeneity.htm

The problem now with tossing the Wonderlic into
the cultural bias bin is that the test itself has been in use for so many years that the cultural group that is exposed to the test and is most fully prepared----are college football athletes. It is as much of getting ready for the draft as hitting the gym and running 40 yard sprints and tossing up 225lb bench presses. The college athlete knows the test is coming and knows what type of questions are on the test.

The whole notion of cultural bias depends on being from a culture that is not represented by the test. Now, the 'college football player with aspirations to go pro' is the 'cultural group' most alert and familiar with the test.

You can still argue that the test is not a valid way to measure anything to do with playing pro-ball. The problem with that argument is that it is still in use by the NFL. Every player knows it is coming, every player has opportunity to get familiar with the test, every player is then graded by the same measuring tool. It is like saying that a tape used to measure my height is 'unfair'---but the same tape is used to measure the height of every player.

(Wonder how different the scores on the BITCH test would be today with the acceptance of Rap, hip-hop, movies, cultural awareness, etc??)
 

Wellthatsjustfine

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Can you guys please take your racist liberal drivel to the P&R board where it belongs? You guys have that whole area to spout your nonsense at the top of your keyboards’ lungs. Can this please just be about football?
 

BW52

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Can you guys please take your racist liberal drivel to the P&R board where it belongs? You guys have that whole area to spout your nonsense at the top of your keyboards’ lungs. Can this please just be about football?


you call people liberal and racist and YOU say let`s keep it about football?
 

sdscard4

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Lamar was to busy getting Louisville ladies delivered to his doorstep. Doesn't surprise me
 

sunsfan88

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I can`t believe people are obsessing over one perceived flaw and ignoring every good thing he has.Damned fools.
When this one “perceived flaw” is being stupid as hell, yeah it’s gonna draw some attention.

I’ve listened to his interviews and I’m not surprised at all about this score.
 

GimmedaBall

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Can you guys please take your racist liberal drivel to the P&R board where it belongs? You guys have that whole area to spout your nonsense at the top of your keyboards’ lungs. Can this please just be about football?

You must have missed the title of this thread: 2018 Draft: Wonderlic Scores of top QBs.

We have this whole thread to spout our nonsense. You are not required to read or participate if it is something that doesn't interest you.

Who put you in charge of what a whole lot of forum members are interested in and discussing??
 

Wellthatsjustfine

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You must have missed the title of this thread: 2018 Draft: Wonderlic Scores of top QBs.

We have this whole thread to spout our nonsense. You are not required to read or participate if it is something that doesn't interest you.

Who put you in charge of what a whole lot of forum members are interested in and discussing??
You can get pissy and try to skirt the truth all you like but the rules of the forums are clear. This is for football, not politics. Making blatantly blind accusations of racism is a political statement, not a football one. I came here to read about football because that’s what it’s advertised to be. That’s not me doing anything but expecting the posters to abide by the rules of the board.
 

Southpaw

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My only assumption of Cardinal fans was that they were smart enough to know something that has been accepted for decades now: That standardized tests are very discriminatory with regard to culture and economic diversity. That some of you wouldn't know this, is truly surprising. Allow me to educate those of you who criticized my statement.

"That the Wonderlic might have a built-in racial bias — like many standardized tests — is a common criticism. Studies have consistently found disparities in scores between white test takers and minorities, both among NFL players and people who are assigned the test for real-world jobs: the 2011 quarterback study, for instance, found that African-American QBs average a score of 20.2, while white QBs average 27.7.

It's unclear whether this sort of disparity is caused by an unfair test with questions that are inherently harder for minorities. But a 2012 study did find that NFL teams, on the whole, seem to interpret Wonderlic scores differently based on race: for a white player, a test score that's ten points higher leads to getting drafted 14.7 spots earlier, while for a black player, it only means a rise by 6.4 spots.

Companies other than the NFL that administer the Wonderlic to screen potential hires have repeatedly been sued on the grounds that the test is discriminatory. In 1971, as part of a case against Duke Energy, the Supreme Court ruled that because the test effectively discriminated on the basis of race and had no relationship with job performance, it couldn't be used."
No, That is a poor defense of your original racist comment. The tests are "standardized". Anything less is cultural bias. 2 tests is not the answer. Do teams have 2 playbooks?
 
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Southpaw

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You can get pissy and try to skirt the truth all you like but the rules of the forums are clear. This is for football, not politics. Making blatantly blind accusations of racism is a political statement, not a football one. I came here to read about football because that’s what it’s advertised to be. That’s not me doing anything but expecting the posters to abide by the rules of the board.
You are the reason mods exist. Complain to them. No need to get personal with this. Be anonymous and report this to the moderation panel.

BTW, this discussion does not seem to be either "political"or "religious".
 

GimmedaBall

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You can get pissy and try to skirt the truth all you like but the rules of the forums are clear. This is for football, not politics. Making blatantly blind accusations of racism is a political statement, not a football one. I came here to read about football because that’s what it’s advertised to be. That’s not me doing anything but expecting the posters to abide by the rules of the board.

Not certain where I made 'blatantly blind accusations of racism.'

As Soutpaw pointed out, the Moderators on the forum keep a pretty close watch on what gets posted here. If you feel offended, just hit the 'Report' option and let the Moderator(s) know why you are upset.

Racism is embedded in our America society and Pro football mirrors our society at large. Not sure why it is not correct to discuss that issue on a football forum.

I'm old enough to remember when black players were not even given the opportunity to play QB or to rise to a HC position. Great QBs like Warren Moon had to play in the Canadian Football League for years before being given a chance in the American NFL (He QB'd five consecutive Grey Cup victories between 1978 and 1982.). If his career would have been entirely in the NFL, he would have the passing records, etc that belong to other QBS. The racist notion that the black player was not 'smart enough' to play QB or be a HC has been discounted years ago but is still in the background when a black QB shows up and is being considered for the draft.

That old racist argument kicks up again when the black QB, in this case LJ, doesn't do well on the Wonderlic. His score on that test is what it is---what it is not is an indictment or global statement regarding the black athlete. Just as the success of former Minnesota DL Alan Page---who rose to Associate member of the Minnesota Supreme Court after football---is not a global statement of the black athlete.

In a color-blind world, we all get measured and prodded based on our merits, not our ethnic background or skin color. Just as we compare 40 times, bench presses, passing completion %, etc we can compare scores on the Wonderlic. Right or wrong regarding the Wonderlic, it is still part of the NFL mix on how players are evaluated. Get a poor 40 yard dash time . . . deal with it. Get a poor Wonderlic score . . . deal with it.

GMs making the draft decision will do that. If they are looking for a pocket QB, they may give more weight to the Wonderlic over running speed; teams looking for a West Coast guy with unique running skills will value the running speed and put less weight on the Wonderlic. The NFL deals with the various measurables, so should the fan.
 

moklerman

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I think there is validity to the idea that some tests are culturally biased but I don't think that would extend to college students/graduates and the Wonderlic. I can understand it with kids who haven't had much education but 20+ year olds who've been in college for years?
 

Southpaw

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I think there is validity to the idea that some tests are culturally biased but I don't think that would extend to college students/graduates and the Wonderlic. I can understand it with kids who haven't had much education but 20+ year olds who've been in college for years?

Opportunity lost and wasted.

Culturally biased seem to be the rationale used by those who choose to live in a pocket segment of that culture that does not translate well to that society in general.
 

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Not certain where I made 'blatantly blind accusations of racism.'

As Soutpaw pointed out, the Moderators on the forum keep a pretty close watch on what gets posted here. If you feel offended, just hit the 'Report' option and let the Moderator(s) know why you are upset.

Racism is embedded in our America society and Pro football mirrors our society at large. Not sure why it is not correct to discuss that issue on a football forum.

I'm old enough to remember when black players were not even given the opportunity to play QB or to rise to a HC position. Great QBs like Warren Moon had to play in the Canadian Football League for years before being given a chance in the American NFL (He QB'd five consecutive Grey Cup victories between 1978 and 1982.). If his career would have been entirely in the NFL, he would have the passing records, etc that belong to other QBS. The racist notion that the black player was not 'smart enough' to play QB or be a HC has been discounted years ago but is still in the background when a black QB shows up and is being considered for the draft.

That old racist argument kicks up again when the black QB, in this case LJ, doesn't do well on the Wonderlic. His score on that test is what it is---what it is not is an indictment or global statement regarding the black athlete. Just as the success of former Minnesota DL Alan Page---who rose to Associate member of the Minnesota Supreme Court after football---is not a global statement of the black athlete.

In a color-blind world, we all get measured and prodded based on our merits, not our ethnic background or skin color. Just as we compare 40 times, bench presses, passing completion %, etc we can compare scores on the Wonderlic. Right or wrong regarding the Wonderlic, it is still part of the NFL mix on how players are evaluated. Get a poor 40 yard dash time . . . deal with it. Get a poor Wonderlic score . . . deal with it.

GMs making the draft decision will do that. If they are looking for a pocket QB, they may give more weight to the Wonderlic over running speed; teams looking for a West Coast guy with unique running skills will value the running speed and put less weight on the Wonderlic. The NFL deals with the various measurables, so should the fan.

The suggestion that Lamar Jackson should consider playing wideout, even though he's never caught a pass, speaks to the deep seeded latent nature of this issue. Would anyone suggest that Josh Allen run Tight-end routes given his size and athleticism?

As mentioned, I've read that NFL teams also use AIQ testing, which actually removes cultural, ethnic and race bias.
 

moklerman

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The suggestion that Lamar Jackson should consider playing wideout, even though he's never caught a pass, speaks to the deep seeded latent nature of this issue. Would anyone suggest that Josh Allen run Tight-end routes given his size and athleticism?

As mentioned, I've read that NFL teams also use AIQ testing, which actually removes cultural, ethnic and race bias.
Didn't they suggest that Tebow switch positions?
 

moklerman

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shhh, this ruins the narrative they so desperately want you to believe!!!
Now that I think about it a little bit, Nolan Cromwell was a QB that moved to safety, Eric Crouch won the Heisman at QB and was asked to move to WR. I think Kyle Rudolph was a QB that moved to TE. Matt Jones was a QB that moved to WR for the Jaguars.

Maybe it happens to black guys more often but it has happened to some white guys too.
 

Solar7

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The suggestion that Lamar Jackson should consider playing wideout, even though he's never caught a pass, speaks to the deep seeded latent nature of this issue. Would anyone suggest that Josh Allen run Tight-end routes given his size and athleticism?

As mentioned, I've read that NFL teams also use AIQ testing, which actually removes cultural, ethnic and race bias.
Plenty of NFL players are asked to change positions to maintain having a chance at staying in the league.

This also happens in college. Not sure what you want here - teams are spending as much money and time as possible evaluating these guys on film, and if they don't think they can handle the position, they don't think you can handle the position.
 

BW52

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Now that I think about it a little bit, Nolan Cromwell was a QB that moved to safety, Eric Crouch won the Heisman at QB and was asked to move to WR. I think Kyle Rudolph was a QB that moved to TE. Matt Jones was a QB that moved to WR for the Jaguars.

Maybe it happens to black guys more often but it has happened to some white guys too.


Also the fact was that not a single one of those guys were even remotely capable of playing QB in the NFL for one reason or another.IIRC Eric Crouch was a option Qb at Nebrask,Rex Kern was a college QB who switched to DB,Jack Mildren same thing.The NFL routinely moved athletic college QBs to DB. because they lacked the arm or other QB skills to play in the NFL.
 

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Plenty of NFL players are asked to change positions to maintain having a chance at staying in the league.

This also happens in college. Not sure what you want here - teams are spending as much money and time as possible evaluating these guys on film, and if they don't think they can handle the position, they don't think you can handle the position.
There are more than one.

Name the 'one' that has the singular talents he has to play the QB position at the NFL level?
 

Solar7

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Name the 'one' that has the singular talents he has to play the QB position at the NFL level?
Josh Cribbs and Julian Edelman both set records at their school... Kordell Stewart played a slash position...

Braxton Miller was asked to, Richard Sherman was a receiver, JJ Watt a TE.

There are questions about Jackson's ability to run a pro style offense. I think hand waving it as racism is pretty silly, since it's in no way the first time it happened.
 
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