2018 Playoffs Thread

[1tinsoldier]

I will say this again. Watched it several times. His left foot is not moving. He gets to the spot. As Durant is coming in he stiffens up and his right foot moves in towards his left. His left foot never moves. So by rule it is a charge. Just what i saw and many others did as well

yes. that is exactly what i saw. and that's a charge the way the rule is written:
To get into a legal position, the defender needs to establish himself in the path of the offensive player before contact is made, thus “beating him to the spot,” and before he starts his upward shooting motion.

 

[Russ Smith]

I read this from SB Nation from a 2014 article. If the rules are still the same it could help shed some light on the call.



"To some degree, yes. The rulebook states that a defender needs to "get his torso directly in the path and beat him to the spot."

However, the notion that a player's feet must be entirely stationary in order to draw a charge call isn't really correct. Unlike most fans at home, referees don't look at a defender's feet and whether they're shuffling at the moment of impact. Instead, it's about whether the defender's torso is set in position.

So, players do need to get "set," but the common definition could use some tweaking." -



If it is indeed true that feet DON'T matter, which has been brought up by a number of commentators, then it was clearly a charge. Lebron's torso is upright before contact is made.

If it is indeed true that feet DO matter, which has been brought up by a number of commentators, then it was clearly a block. Lebron's right foot was sliding into place.

So the NBA needs to make an official statement as to which of the two is correct.

they need to define what "establish" means. in college it's clear, feet set, in the NBA it says establish, that's too vague.

 

[Russ Smith]

yes. that is exactly what i saw. and that's a charge the way the rule is written:
To get into a legal position, the defender needs to establish himself in the path of the offensive player before contact is made, thus “beating him to the spot,” and before he starts his upward shooting motion.

yes but what does establish mean?

The way they call it, establish means set, the way it's written, it doesn't say that. Which is why many of us are saying the foot is moving and otehrs saying so what, because the wording of the is not precise enough

 

[Cheesebeef]

yes but what does establish mean?

The way they call it, establish means set, the way it's written, it doesn't say that. Which is why many of us are saying the foot is moving and otehrs saying so what, because the wording of the is not precise enough

and if the call is that close where NBA refs like Steve Javie are saying he thought it was a charge... and that WAS the call on the court and you wouldn't even be looking at it if not for a ridiculous notion that LeBron was inside the circle, the call should have stood. Period.

 

[Russ Smith]

and if the call is that close where NBA refs like Steve Javie are saying he thought it was a charge... and that WAS the call on the court and you wouldn't even be looking at it if not for a ridiculous notion that LeBron was inside the circle, the call should have stood. Period.

Exactly, I dont' think any of us dispute the call should not have been reviewed, let alone overturned. They got the call right IMO, but by the entire wrong process and it should never have been reviewed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The point im trying to make is its so close it has to be left as called. How they overturn it is beyond me. Any other superstar gets that call everytime. I don't get it

See I didn’t think it was close. In all my years watching and played my hoops that was a block. If that’s a charge a lot of rec league and intramural refs owe me a lot of apologies.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

yes that's the rule but what does establish mean? Does it mean set or just in front. To me beat to the spot means set, but lots of people are saying it does NOT mean set it just means in front.

I think it's the correct call as a block but it should never have been reviewed, and they need to change the wording on it because establish is too vague IMO

“Beating to a spot” just can’t be the standard. Aw forget it this argument is too esoteric and based in

I will say this again. Watched it several times. His left foot is not moving. He gets to the spot. As Durant is coming in he stiffens up and his right foot moves in towards his left. His left foot never moves. So by rule it is a charge. Just what i saw and many others did as well

if the rule was that it’s a charge if just have one stationary foot there would 100s more charges called. That’s not the standard.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I


Edit: Actually, I just heard a great explanation from the League Official on NBA TV. Two things:
1. He stated that since his entire body (shoulders, torso, feet) were sliding before contact it's a block.

This why I thought it was a block from the getgo

 

[Raindog]

Frankly, the only controversy to me is:

A) If that game were in Cleveland, Lebron gets that call.

B) If that game was against anyone other than Golden State, Lebron gets that call.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frankly, the only controversy to me is:

A) If that game were in Cleveland, Lebron gets that call.

B) If that game was against anyone other than Golden State, Lebron gets that call.

I don't buy it. But if you want to play that game, had it been anyone other than Lebron maybe the block is called right away?

I think refs make bad calls and that call, bad or good, could have been made against anyone, anywhere but James gets more than his share of reputation calls.

 

[Raindog]

I don't buy it. But if you want to play that game, had it been anyone other than Lebron maybe the block is called right away?

I think refs make bad calls and that call, bad or good, could have been made against anyone, anywhere but James gets more than his share of reputation calls.

You're misunderstanding my point... which is that objective interpretation of the "rules" is rarely the prevailing criterion when making calls like this in the NBA. The referees call whatever they want in those circumstances... and usually to the benefit of the stars the league wants to succeed... except when other stars (or star "teams") are impacted.

And yes, Lebron gets a lion's share of reputation calls, just for that reason. I was not arguing that at all.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Before this game I thought Cleveland might be able to steal a game from GSW. After this I think they get swept.

They had things going basically as well as they could have imagined. Iggy out, Durant middling game, Lebron going off for 50, Kevin Love playing well, rest of the supporting cast doing good work. And then a series of events throws all that away and they crumpled in OT.

Shades of Suns/Spurs in 08

 

[Raze]

Before this game I thought Cleveland might be able to steal a game from GSW. After this I think they get swept.

They had things going basically as well as they could have imagined. Iggy out, Durant middling game, Lebron going off for 50, Kevin Love playing well, rest of the supporting cast doing good work. And then a series of events throws all that away and they crumpled in OT.

Shades of Suns/Spurs in 08

Wait... Tim Donaghy is officiating? That would explain a lot.

 

[Russ Smith]

Before this game I thought Cleveland might be able to steal a game from GSW. After this I think they get swept.

They had things going basically as well as they could have imagined. Iggy out, Durant middling game, Lebron going off for 50, Kevin Love playing well, rest of the supporting cast doing good work. And then a series of events throws all that away and they crumpled in OT.

Shades of Suns/Spurs in 08

That actually goes both ways though. yes LeBron was amazing, great shooting game for him, and they still lost. But the counter is the Warriors had only 7 turnovers in the game and had to go to OT to win, with several assists from the refs.

Now the downside for Cleveland is the Warriors only shot 13-36 from 3 and both Curry and Durant missed several good looks in the 3rd and 4th quarter that could have broken the game wide open. Durant had 26 but he was only 1-7 from 3 and took 22 shots. He did actually have 6 assists which is a promising sign going forward.

For me it comes down to if Iggy is not going to play in this series, Cleveland has a chance, Iggy is the guy who normally guards LeBron, he doesn't shut him down, nobody does, but he makes him work hard to get his points. that wasn't the case last night, even Draymond struggled to guard LeBron last night.

 

[HeHasRosen]

So the NBA said that Durant fouled Lebron before he passed to Hill in the last possession. So Lebron should have shot those FT not Hill. And they said Draymond committed a lane violation while Hill took the 2nd FT he missed. Smh

 

[elindholm]

So the NBA said that Durant fouled Lebron before he passed to Hill in the last possession. So Lebron should have shot those FT not Hill. And they said Draymond committed a lane violation while Hill took the 2nd FT he missed. Smh

Hill missing the second free throw didn't hurt Cleveland. If he makes it, Golden State has the ball down one with 5 seconds left. That's not a situation Cleveland would have been happy about. The miss and offensive rebound were the perfect sequence for them, if not for Smith spacing out.

 

[Russ Smith]

So the NBA said that Durant fouled Lebron before he passed to Hill in the last possession. So Lebron should have shot those FT not Hill. And they said Draymond committed a lane violation while Hill took the 2nd FT he missed. Smh

That's the last 2 minutes thing. LeBron took 11 FT's last night, and committed a lane violation on at least 8 of them. Kerr was complaining to the refs during the game because LeBron falls forward after he shoots and several times his right foot touched before the ball got to the rim. Seems trivial when the ball goes in, but if he misses, and gets the rebound, and it's not called, it's controversial.

It's why I agree with what Van Gundy said last night, if the NBA is evaluating calls teh whole game, why do they only release the last 2 minutes? A bad call is a bad call no matter when it's made or missed.

It's actually worse than I thought I confused the NBA and college rule. College IIRC you have to touch the floor with your foot, in the NBA you can't cross the plane of the free throw line until the shot touches something or goes in.

This link will show what I'm talking about, and they actually called it on him once in the Raptors series, I missed that. So make that 11 lane violations last night

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ation-on-a-free-throw/?utm_term=.28bb45fd36be

 

[HeHasRosen]

That's the last 2 minutes thing. LeBron took 11 FT's last night, and committed a lane violation on at least 8 of them. Kerr was complaining to the refs during the game because LeBron falls forward after he shoots and several times his right foot touched before the ball got to the rim. Seems trivial when the ball goes in, but if he misses, and gets the rebound, and it's not called, it's controversial.

It's why I agree with what Van Gundy said last night, if the NBA is evaluating calls teh whole game, why do they only release the last 2 minutes? A bad call is a bad call no matter when it's made or missed.

It's actually worse than I thought I confused the NBA and college rule. College IIRC you have to touch the floor with your foot, in the NBA you can't cross the plane of the free throw line until the shot touches something or goes in.

This link will show what I'm talking about, and they actually called it on him once in the Raptors series, I missed that. So make that 11 lane violations last night

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ation-on-a-free-throw/?utm_term=.28bb45fd36be

Yea i dont get why they release this info at all to me its just ridiculous.

Yes he does that. But i think there is probably a lane violation every time FT's are shot. Just another thing that doesnt get called unless its blatant. For all the flack the NFL catches for its officiating the NBA is by far the worst. It drives me nuts

 

[Russ Smith]

Yea i dont get why they release this info at all to me its just ridiculous.

Yes he does that. But i think there is probably a lane violation every time FT's are shot. Just another thing that doesnt get called unless its blatant. For all the flack the NFL catches for its officiating the NBA is by far the worst. It drives me nuts

I agree but NOT calling it on the shooter IMO is much worse than not calling it on guys on the lane because the shooter is the first guy involved in teh play. It's like not calling penalties on QB's like Tom Brady who bob their head and do other things to draw the defense offsides, they have total control because they determine when the play starts.

I completely get that the NBA can't call everything, teh moving screens and holding on defense is out of control, but when a guy is standing unguarded at the FT line and stepping over like that they need to call it. What if they had called the foul on Draymond and it was LeBron not Hill shooting the Ft's/ What if he misses the 2nd one, gets his own rebound and scores the game winning shot?

There's just no explanation the NBA can give that holds water on that one, it's been a public topic for the entire playoffs because the Pacers were complaining about it, and it's plain as day true he's violating the rule.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Dang, the Cavs didn't waste any time! JR Smith is already out here in Vegas begging for cash :

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[1tinsoldier]

if you recall, Popovich outsmarted us (as usual) by initiating an extensive "hack a shaq" campaign which included his complaining about Shaq's foul shot lane violations. the refs responded multiple times and the whole thing was very disruptive. i actually believe it could have cost us the series.

 

[Hoop Head]

As much as I don't think a series should be decided by suspensions I almost wish the league would suspend TT and Love so this can be over quicker. There is little chance the Cavs win game 2, there is virtually no chance they win if they don't have those 2. Then Lebron can have an asterisks by this finals loss and we can move on to the draft.

 

[Phrazbit]

As much as I don't think a series should be decided by suspensions I almost wish the league would suspend TT and Love so this can be over quicker. There is little chance the Cavs win game 2, there is virtually no chance they win if they don't have those 2. Then Lebron can have an asterisks by this finals loss and we can move on to the draft.

Nah, the best thing that can happen to the NBA is for this Warriors team to have an emotional falling out. If this series even goes 6 games I think the Warriors won't be happy with each other, especially with how lucky they were to get beyond the Rockets before this. There are some HUGE egos at play and watching this team... I honestly feel like Curry, Durant and Green don't really like eachother. They're a good nudge of hardship away from turning cancerous. If they somehow LOST this series then I think things would fall apart quick and dramatically.

Pro sports are weird. I really do think egos... and glass jaws... and pride... and blame... are so intertwined that a game or a play can be the difference between a team being a dynasty or being a moment.

The best example I can think of is the Seattle Seahawks, if they ran the ball at the end of the Superbowl a couple years ago, they almost certainly win their second title in 3 years... instead they turned the ball over. They then had a bunch of surprise retirements, Pete Carroll lost his luster and now they're a fringe contender at best... whereas, IMO if they beat the Pats, they would have become the new Pats, a dynasty that would have carried as long as their QB and coach were willing to stick it out with talented veteran players flocking to play for them. Instead, the QB threw a pick on a terrible call by the coaching staff and the franchise is a shadow of what it was

...

...

...

That was quite the tangent. Moral of the story, I think this series is a pivotal moment for the NBA. If the Cavs win or push it to 7 games, then LeBron's chances of staying in Cleveland grow exponentially and the chances of this Warriors super team turning on itself do the same. Whereas, if the Warriors cruise then LeBron bails to form a new super team in Philly, Houston or (my personal favorite) Boston and this Warriors team keep pretending to like each other and whatever team LeBron joins and the Warriors continue to be the finals/defacto finals for the next few years.

I personally hope for chaos. LeBron winning a title on a hopeless squad that has no hope of sustained success, but which he obviously cannot abandon as a defending champ, and the death of, what I think is, the greatest superteam ever assembled. If this does not come to pass I will blame the drunken idiot that is JR Smith.

 

[Russ Smith]

if you recall, Popovich outsmarted us (as usual) by initiating an extensive "hack a shaq" campaign which included his complaining about Shaq's foul shot lane violations. the refs responded multiple times and the whole thing was very disruptive. i actually believe it could have cost us the series.

I'm actually surprised Kerr is not doing that this series. He complained in game 1, I saw it, but I'm surrprised he's not doing the casual Steve Kerr slip it into a conversation stuff he does so cleverly. in 2015 he subtly complained about LeBron and his "hand fighting" that he does with the left while driving, and subtly pointed out how few fouls LeBron got. I think he was just trying to get 1-2 calls a game he might not otherwise get.

LeBron is literally carrying his team right now, and almost every FT he shoots is a lane violation, seems like if I were Kerr I'd be making a point of complaining because if you can get the refs to call even 1 per game, it's going to get LeBron thinking about it instead of shooting and he might miss a few more. At the level he's playing right now you have to do some jedi mind tricks and given that it's perfectly documented he's breaking the rule, seems like an obvious one.

 

[Russ Smith]

Nah, the best thing that can happen to the NBA is for this Warriors team to have an emotional falling out. If this series even goes 6 games I think the Warriors won't be happy with each other, especially with how lucky they were to get beyond the Rockets before this. There are some HUGE egos at play and watching this team... I honestly feel like Curry, Durant and Green don't really like eachother. They're a good nudge of hardship away from turning cancerous. If they somehow LOST this series then I think things would fall apart quick and dramatically.

Pro sports are weird. I really do think egos... and glass jaws... and pride... and blame... are so intertwined that a game or a play can be the difference between a team being a dynasty or being a moment.

The best example I can think of is the Seattle Seahawks, if they ran the ball at the end of the Superbowl a couple years ago, they almost certainly win their second title in 3 years... instead they turned the ball over. They then had a bunch of surprise retirements, Pete Carroll lost his luster and now they're a fringe contender at best... whereas, IMO if they beat the Pats, they would have become the new Pats, a dynasty that would have carried as long as their QB and coach were willing to stick it out with talented veteran players flocking to play for them. Instead, the QB threw a pick on a terrible call by the coaching staff and the franchise is a shadow of what it was

...

...

...

That was quite the tangent. Moral of the story, I think this series is a pivotal moment for the NBA. If the Cavs win or push it to 7 games, then LeBron's chances of staying in Cleveland grow exponentially and the chances of this Warriors super team turning on itself do the same. Whereas, if the Warriors cruise then LeBron bails to form a new super team in Philly, Houston or (my personal favorite) Boston and this Warriors team keep pretending to like each other and whatever team LeBron joins and the Warriors continue to be the finals/defacto finals for the next few years.

I personally hope for chaos. LeBron winning a title on a hopeless squad that has no hope of sustained success, but which he obviously cannot abandon as a defending champ, and the death of, what I think is, the greatest superteam ever assembled. If this does not come to pass I will blame the drunken idiot that is JR Smith.

I do think this series has exposed some issues with Durant that were there but not totally obvious. Playoff run I guess not series. He can absolutely carry the team offensively but when he does so, it freezes out others. When Curry was out they needed it, but when Curry got back it seemed like Durant wsa hesitant to stop doing it so much. Remember the entire reason he wanted out of OKC, as has been documented, is he hated all the no pass ISO ball they played. So it's a really odd thing that he's now doing what he hated and you can see cracks in the armor of the team.

Draymond is different, he's maddeningly stupid at times, riling up LeBron, gettng T's, some of those cheapshot fouls etc. He puts his team at risk someone like TT gets mad and retaliates maybe. But he's also the emotional leader of the team, when they're flat he's the one that gets in your face and tells you to play harder. He's the heart and soul of the team.

Plus the biggest issue they have right now IMO is the aging of Iggy and Livingston. They don't have any obvious successors to those 2.