Alex Len

[JCSunsfan]

As you all know, I love to bemoan the guys that infuriate me, but so far this year I don't have a target on the Suns.

Frye is playing better than I ever remember him playing, including his first year here, which I felt like all he did was shoot wide open shots courtesy of Nash. Coming into the year I thought the Suns would be better off if he retired, but instead his ability to spread the court has become a vital cog in the offense. The Morri have been flat out solid. PJ (who I liked last year too) has cut down on his trademark "foot out of bounds to begin the dribble" routine.

Closest thing to a whipping boy I think this team has is Green, but the bar was set so low for him coming into the year that his faults are largely forgiven. Seriously though, that guy takes dumber shots and is a less willing passer than Shannon the Cannon, but he is much better defensively and, on the occasions that he spot up shoots rather than tries to take guys off the dribble, is a better shooter than Shannon.

Oh, and I guess titular-Len obviously qualifies here. Not exactly as a "villian", but certainly the biggest dud worth grousing about thus far in the season.

To me Green is not nearly as bad as Shannon. He is just plain more effective. I am so glad we do not have to play Len. He can heal and grow. Plumlee has made him a luxury but we did not know we would have Plumlee at draft time. I am so glad we trades Gortat because it would have been a major drama with Plumlee taking his minutes.

 

[AzStevenCal]

To me Green is not nearly as bad as Shannon. He is just plain more effective. I am so glad we do not have to play Len. He can heal and grow. Plumlee has made him a luxury but we did not know we would have Plumlee at draft time. I am so glad we trades Gortat because it would have been a major drama with Plumlee taking his minutes.

Not really. Gortat would have just announced to the media that he was unhappy not being able to contribute to the team and that he needed to sit down and have a conversation with the Head Coach. Every third week - rinse, lather, repeat.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

I am so tired of defending Frye, I can just imagine how tired everyone is from reading all this crap. So I surrender. Shoot him and bury his carcass out back.

Steve

I wouldn't worry about it, Steve. Those of us who actually watch every minute of every game know his value to the team this year and it has been substantial.

 

[Mainstreet]

I wouldn't worry about it, Steve. Those of us who actually watch every minute of every game know his value to the team this year and it has been substantial.

I agree. Frye's value to the Suns is vastly underrated by some.

 

[AfroSuns]

I wouldn't worry about it, Steve. Those of us who actually watch every minute of every game know his value to the team this year and it has been substantial.

+1000

 

[ProdigalSun]

I wouldn't worry about it, Steve. Those of us who actually watch every minute of every game know his value to the team this year and it has been substantial.

I agree. Its a little silly to bemoan his play this year as its amazing he's even back contributing at all

 

[BC867]

Pretty good news when your team scape goat has the best +/- on the team.

Frye starts with the starters and is usually the first one to the bench (unless he is hitting 3's). In both the 1st quarter and the 3rd quarter.

Quite often, he tends to not come back in late in the 2nd and 4th quarters with the other starters when they are starting to show fatigue.

That is a perfect formula for a high +/-, but that is all it is -- numbers padding. Unless he is hitting 3's, Frye is not one of the top four most valuable Suns on the court when you look at helping make his teammates better or fulfilling his size.

 

[sunsfan88]

Frye starts with the starters and is usually the first one to the bench (unless he is hitting 3's). In both the 1st quarter and the 3rd quarter.

Quite often, he tends to not come back in late in the 2nd and 4th quarters with the other starters when they are starting to show fatigue.

That is a perfect formula for a high +/-, but that is all it is -- numbers padding. Unless he is hitting 3's, Frye is not one of the top four most valuable Suns on the court when you look at helping make his teammates better or fulfilling his size.

Exactly. +/- is easily manipulated. Next time someone rips on slinslin for using +/- to judge a player, I'm gonna bring up all the posts in this thread.

Can't believe I am willing to defend slinslin....

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly. +/- is easily manipulated. Next time someone rips on slinslin for using +/- to judge a player,

Can't believe I am willing to defend slinslin....

Why would you? No one has said it's a perfect stat but it's a joke to say it's easily manipulated. It paints an incomplete picture but that doesn't make it irrelevant.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

+,- is not a be all end all of stats but it certainly has its merits, and over the course of a full season can be very revealing. Frye's team leading number in that stat certainly refutes any idea that he is killing the team while he is out on the court.

Also, I think the ways +,- can sometimes be misleading do not really apply to Frye's situation. Garbage time players, defensive specialists, or guys who have a superb or terrible player as their sub will have really skewed numbers... I dont think any of those apply to Frye's situation.

IMO his +,- is legit, and it reflects how important he has been to the offensive success of the team. SF88 is harping on his inconsistency, but other than Dragic and Bledsoe no one has been consistent. Markieff has been just as all over the map as Frye.

http://www.82games.com/1314/13PHO11.HTM#onoff

Check that out. When Frye is in the game the TEAM shoots 7% better than they do when he is out of the game. Thats an incredible stat. It will probably normalize a bit as the season goes on and the rotations get more intertwined, but there is no denying how much better the offense has been while he is out there.

 

[Errntknght]

The plus minus stat can be somewhat manipulated by the coach if he isn't too interested in winning ball games but its extremely difficult for anyone else to do. Its also simple to understand - its simply the net points the team gets while the person in question is on the floor. But it you imagine it tells you who the best player on a team is, you're in for a surprise. Go through the teams with large negative point differentials and I'll bet you can't guess the +/- leader for any one of them. The guys you guess will almost certainly be closer to the bottom than the top. The reason that happens is that if you played all 48 minutes every game for a team with say -7 pt diff, after 30 games your +/- would be -210, regardless of your performance. On really bad teams the more minutes you play the worse your +/- is. On the other hand if you barely ever get on the floor you could have a fairly small negative score or even a positive one. Plus-minus per 48 minutes played fixes that to a some extent but the guy who plays all 48 is still going to have -7 +/- per 48, no matter if he goes 30,10,10 every night. His most likely rank among his teamates is right in the middle of the pack.

No one plays all the time but the effect is there always and the more minutes a guy plays the stronger it is. The best players play the most minutes so they are the ones that get the strongest pull toward team average.

If you want to compare players on different teams, even the per 48 version is not enough, you have to adjust for the teams' various pt differentials. Its not hard - if a players plays 31 minutes a game, you subtract 31/48 times his teams pt diff, remembering that subtracting a negative number increases a score. Now that I think of it that correction should be applied even within a team...

 

[AzStevenCal]

The plus minus stat can be somewhat manipulated by the coach if he isn't too interested in winning ball games but its extremely difficult for anyone else to do. Its also simple to understand - its simply the net points the team gets while the person in question is on the floor. But it you imagine it tells you who the best player on a team is, you're in for a surprise. Go through the teams with large negative point differentials and I'll bet you can't guess the +/- leader for any one of them. The guys you guess will almost certainly be closer to the bottom than the top. The reason that happens is that if you played all 48 minutes every game for a team with say -7 pt diff, after 30 games your +/- would be -210, regardless of your performance. On really bad teams the more minutes you play the worse your +/- is. On the other hand if you barely ever get on the floor you could have a fairly small negative score or even a positive one. Plus-minus per 48 minutes played fixes that to a some extent but the guy who plays all 48 is still going to have -7 +/- per 48, no matter if he goes 30,10,10 every night. His most likely rank among his teamates is right in the middle of the pack.

No one plays all the time but the effect is there always and the more minutes a guy plays the stronger it is. The best players play the most minutes so they are the ones that get the strongest pull toward team average.

If you want to compare players on different teams, even the per 48 version is not enough, you have to adjust for the teams' various pt differentials. Its not hard - if a players plays 31 minutes a game, you subtract 31/48 times his teams pt diff, remembering that subtracting a negative number increases a score. Now that I think of it that correction should be applied even within a team...

Just out of curiosity, was there any comment in this thread that made you feel obliged to point this out to us. I'm not being sarcastic, I really am curious what brought this out of you. Unfortunately, it's going to lend weight to 88's delusion that we've all been arguing in favor of Frye throughout this thread solely because of a +/- stat. As far as I know, I'm the only person to use these numbers here and I made it very clear that they are an imperfect tool for gauging value. I just thought they were interesting in light of 88's continued claim that Frye has been a horrible player this season.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Poor Alex Len, even in his own thread he can't get any burn.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Poor Alex Len, even in his own thread he can't get any burn.

Steve

We are just keeping his thread warm while we await his return.

In the meanwhile, his thread is building a legacy.

 

[Errntknght]

Just out of curiosity, was there any comment in this thread that made you feel obliged to point this out to us. I'm not being sarcastic, I really am curious what brought this out of you. Unfortunately, it's going to lend weight to 88's delusion that we've all been arguing in favor of Frye throughout this thread solely because of a +/- stat. As far as I know, I'm the only person to use these numbers here and I made it very clear that they are an imperfect tool for gauging value. I just thought they were interesting in light of 88's continued claim that Frye has been a horrible player this season.

Steve

Yes, the comment about +/- being easily manipulated provoked me into talking about it. Once started I got a little carried away...

 

[devilalum]

Poor Alex Len, even in his own thread he can't get any burn.

Steve

Players that don't play don't deserve attention.

 

[Chaplin]

Players that don't play don't deserve attention.

That's awfully negative.

 

[devilalum]

That's awfully negative.

Not much to talk about?

Which is why this turned into the Channing Frye thread.

 

[sunsfan88]

Suns rookie center Alex Len (ankle) is working his way toward possibly joining practices in a week. He has been running on a treadmill for a week and a half, working his toward full weight-bearing runs.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...e-golden-state-loss-phoenix-suns-shining.html

 

[drk3351]

My thoughts on the Len situation.
1. He would just play 10 minutes at best off the bench with Plumlee, Frye, and the Morris twins.
2. If he still is hurt rest him the whole sseason even like the 76ers are doing with Noel.
3. If he's healthy give him some run.
4. We shouldn't judge Len yet, has played 4 games.

 

[JCSunsfan]

My thoughts on the Len situation.
1. He would just play 10 minutes at best off the bench with Plumlee, Frye, and the Morris twins.
2. If he still is hurt rest him the whole sseason even like the 76ers are doing with Noel.
3. If he's healthy give him some run.
4. We shouldn't judge Len yet, has played 4 games.

Yours and every other reasonable person's.

 

[sunsfan88]

My thoughts on the Len situation.
1. He would just play 10 minutes at best off the bench with Plumlee, Frye, and the Morris twins.
2. If he still is hurt rest him the whole sseason even like the 76ers are doing with Noel.
3. If he's healthy give him some run.
4. We shouldn't judge Len yet, has played 4 games.

Pretty much.

 

[Phrazbit]

Again... I dont think ANYONE is saying that Len is officially "judged" as anything. But I think there are a lot of "reasonable" people who think the odds are heavily stacked against him.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Admittedly, while I like Frye as a person, I have serious doubts about his impact on this team when the games will really matter. I just don't agree with a strategy that uses a 6'11" big man as your key 3 point shooter. It might work now... But when the post season comes and the quality of talent is higher and more consistent, I have serious doubts about Frye.
Even now, if he's not draining 3's, what then is his value to the team? He's not a consistent presence on the boards... He's not a quality distributor of the ball... As I see it, it's either draining 3's or bust...



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[Chaplin]

Admittedly, while I like Frye as a person, I have serious doubts about his impact on this team when the games will really matter. I just don't agree with a strategy that uses a 6'11" big man as your key 3 point shooter. It might work now... But when the post season comes and the quality of talent is higher and more consistent, I have serious doubts about Frye.
Even now, if he's not draining 3's, what then is his value to the team? He's not a consistent presence on the boards... He's not a quality distributor of the ball... As I see it, it's either draining 3's or bust...



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Geez, come on... Did you not watch the game last night?