All quiet on Washington front

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,626
Reaction score
30,368
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Are you saying if a man is unfaithful, they've escalated the situation to the point that the woman acting crazy and coming at him with a knife is...justified?

No, I'm saying that a crazy woman on bath salts assaulting a man with whom she has a prior relationship with no prior warning is something that happens, rather than the increasingly baroque scenarios that DV apologists from the MRAs on here are spinning out.

Again, if you have a legit relationship with a woman and you're out cheating, I doubt that it's a total surprise if/when she comes at you with a knife. I'm not saying it's justified, but it's also not something completely out of the blue.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
36,782
Reaction score
15,887
Location
Arizona
+1


Cheese- you are a pretty judgmental character. I happen to work in public safety, so I see a lot of reality. You're pretty much full of hot air bud. You have little idea what the reality of domestic violence actually is. I actually have a hard time believing you would manage to get laid with as out of touch as you are. 50 shades of gray bud, and it aint just about a chic flick on sex....

Totally uncalled for.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,824
Reaction score
14,840
Location
Chandler, Az
+1


Cheese- you are a pretty judgmental character. I happen to work in public safety, so I see a lot of reality. You're pretty much full of hot air bud. You have little idea what the reality of domestic violence actually is. I actually have a hard time believing you would manage to get laid with as out of touch as you are. 50 shades of gray bud, and it aint just about a chic flick on sex....

Uncalled for. This is a personal attack. Consider this a warning.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/please-read-the-cardinal-guidelines-of-this-site-44083.html

The following activities will not be tolerated:

- Aggression or annoyance towards any member whether in forums or private messages. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster.
 

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
you've already done something to escalate the situation and displayed profoundly bad judgement. No one just knocks on their door and their ex opens it up with a knife in their hand unless there's a pretty terrible history that the one who knocks is ignoring.

I 100% disagree with this statement, in its entirety.

There are some crazy people out there, and some of them are women.

Said crazy lady hears a false rumor, flips out, and comes looking for you.

I understand your point, but lets be real here, women are not all angels and perfect. There are crazy ones out there.

I don't ever expect to be in a situation as described, but if I am, then I am defending my life as any sane person would.

Wrong. I challenge you to justify this in the case of domestic violence.

I am not going to try and justify my response to a hypothetical situation. My opinions on the hypothetical situation are what they are.

You wanna handle the situation a different way that is your business. Just don't get yourself killed, because then I won't have anyone to debate with on this board.

Again, if you have a legit relationship with a woman and you're out cheating, I doubt that it's a total surprise if/when she comes at you with a knife. I'm not saying it's justified, but it's also not something completely out of the blue.

Ok, I see where you are going with this. Yes, you are correct. But, the punishment for cheating on a person is not death. So, yeah, maybe a person would be expecting this, but I also imagine many would not. Long and short of it is, regardless of the situation, and how much at fault I am, and how much I know about the person I am with, if I find myself in front of a person, man or woman, and they are waving a knife at me, then all past situations are null and void, because it is a "life or death" situation at that moment. And at that moment, I am going to protect myself in any way shape or form. That's just me, tho.

.....this is a lot of back and forth about a complete hypothetical situation.
 
Last edited:

Arizona's Finest

Your My Favorite Mistake
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Posts
9,709
Reaction score
1
lol. How about this? Every situation is different. Sometimes its the man. Sometimes its the women. Most of the time both played a role. And Im not talking about DV only, im talking in any argument/fight.

We have no clue what happened here. Obviously Daryl went too far and should pay a price for that. All this teeth gnashing of he shouldnt have been in that situation or he/she said is just total lip service BS. Only way to look at this is cold hard facts. Washington was in a bad situation, he was legally indemnified I believe? But we are awaiting the NFL punishment.

Everything else is speculation. I dont judge Daryl one way or the other. This seems like isolated incident but who knows? Ill give him benefit of the doubt - F'ed up situaiton, he deserves due process from both government and work (NFL) and a punishment though I am not sure how much or what as I am bias and want him to play for Az again and quickly.

But all this other stuff? YOU DONT KNOW HIM OR THE DETAILS OF THE SITUATION. All of this speculation is on half the information. And thats always dangerous.

If this was a third infraction like this or he got in trouble with the law alto previously? Yes hes probably a waste case cant handle himself.

But smoking pot + One bad situation doesnt necessairly make you a terrible person. It doesnt preclude you from it either. Just not enough info to say one way or the other.

Cant stand the people who look at things just through broad sweeping brush of bad or good. Not everyone accused of DV is a bad person or even did anything wrong. Just like with any crime really. Thats just common sense, no?
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
92,145
Reaction score
70,286
Point taken... Cheese, I apologize for taking things to far and making a personal attack. It was uncalled for, and I could have made my point without doing so.

no worries dude.

sorry to hear about what you went through with your DV case. That had to be awful to live through.
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,423
Reaction score
4,184
Location
Monroe NC
This is profoundly stupid. If a woman is coming at you with a weapon, you've already done something to escalate the situation and displayed profoundly bad judgement. No one just knocks on their door and their ex opens it up with a knife in their hand unless there's a pretty terrible history that the one who knocks is ignoring.

A comment like this reminds me of this classic Onion article:

Man Always Carries Gun In Case He Needs to Escalate Situation

K9 you are taking this out of context just to create an argument. What you are doing is no different than the press picking one small portion of a comment and then running with it ignoring the rest of the total quote.

I don't argue the fact that you may very well have done something to escalate the situation however even if it is bad judgment you would at least protect yourself from being injured or worse. I don't believe for one second if you were in a situation like this and a woman came at you with a knife you would not just stand there and let her stab you because you used poor judgment and said something to escalate the situation. Oh, my bad I pissed you off so go ahead and stick me.

People in general can end up making things worse than they could be and escalate an already volatile problem. It doesn't mean they shouldn't protect themselves if one of the participants goes ballistic. And your Onion comment doesn't even make sense because I never said the guy should pick up a weapon too.

By the way, I will let you in on a little secret, woman can have short tempers and short fuses too and can go way overboard and lash out and get physical over something very minor. Guys haven't cornered the market on that type of behavior.
 

speedy

the medic
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,281
Reaction score
2,426
Location
Glendale
No, I'm saying that a crazy woman on bath salts assaulting a man with whom she has a prior relationship with no prior warning is something that happens, rather than the increasingly baroque scenarios that DV apologists from the MRAs on here are spinning out.

Again, if you have a legit relationship with a woman and you're out cheating, I doubt that it's a total surprise if/when she comes at you with a knife. I'm not saying it's justified, but it's also not something completely out of the blue.

Here are some facts one should consider when trying to understand DV:

Over 50% of orders of protection filed throughout the US are done so in conjunction with divorce/custody/child support actions in civil court (many times filed within the same day).

According to the CDC, women are responsible for 53% of child abuse and men are responsible for 47%. Child abuse is domestic violence.

Females in lesbian relationships are assaulted at the same rate as heterosexual females (also per the CDC).

Women are 6x's more likely to throw objects or use a weapon (that isn't a firearm) than men are. Men are responsible for 83% of gun violence in a domestic relationship. 2/3's of children murdered in domestic violence are killed by females.

I could keep going with the data (not my opinion, but hard data from the center for disease control), but the point is, domestic violence is an issue that equally shares responsibility by both men and women. When the picture is painted (as it so often is) as a male being the predominate aggressor and the female being victimized, it really hampers the hope that we will ever put an end to DV.

Consider this hypothetical: My wife (I am remarried) just turns into a total B, she has a drug/alcohol problem, and she is constantly attempting to incite/escalate conflict and push all my buttons and trigger points. I can tell that I am in a bad situation, and I can tell there is a high potential it could get really bad at some point where the cops are coming to my house. I don't want it to go there, I would like to stop anything from happening before it does, but what do I do (and I am not talking about loosing my temper, I am talking about just being caught in the middle of a ish storm)? Where is the support groups for men in my situation? Where are the DV shelters for men? Who would actually listen to me anyway??? The only possible support groups are mens rights activists, and I agree with you, they are a whacked out bunch I wouldn't recommend anybody get involved with. There is only one shelter for men here in this Valley: it has 12 or so beds and it is geared for homosexual men.

Now, luckily the above isn't a scenario I have to deal with, but I know some situations that are real similar to this. I have even seen folks in these types of situations have the tables completely turned on them, loose their kids, pay out large sums of money, loose their assets, and in some cases lose certain civil/constitutional rights, and mainly because people (and even both criminal and civil systems) aren't programed to look at the issue from any other perspective, but it being predominantly a male on female issue.

I am probably running additional risk of getting banned by not keeping this in the PR forum, so let me apologize for that as well... In the case of DW, he made a series of bad decisions, but by all accounts, he has fully complied with his rehabilitative process. Nobody knows for sure what happened the day his baby momma broke her collar-bone, except the 2 of them. I can tell you from experience that not everyone who pleads guilty and enters the diversion program is in fact guilty. I was strongly encouraged by my counsel to take that option during my experience: "Look man, it will be 12-18 wednesday night classes and then you are done and over with this; its off your record like it never happened." I got to tell you, I had many sleepless nights pondering what route I should go, and I ended up taking the ballsy one for all intents and purposes. For me, it came down to a simple "what is right and what is wrong" perspective/attitude, and I pushed the table. I am glad I did (and yes, I was found innocent), but it was definitely a gamble on the front end. For many people, the safe route is the diversion program.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,626
Reaction score
30,368
Location
Gilbert, AZ
K9 you are taking this out of context just to create an argument. What you are doing is no different than the press picking one small portion of a comment and then running with it ignoring the rest of the total quote.

I don't argue the fact that you may very well have done something to escalate the situation however even if it is bad judgment you would at least protect yourself from being injured or worse. I don't believe for one second if you were in a situation like this and a woman came at you with a knife you would not just stand there and let her stab you because you used poor judgment and said something to escalate the situation. Oh, my bad I pissed you off so go ahead and stick me.

People in general can end up making things worse than they could be and escalate an already volatile problem. It doesn't mean they shouldn't protect themselves if one of the participants goes ballistic. And your Onion comment doesn't even make sense because I never said the guy should pick up a weapon too.

By the way, I will let you in on a little secret, woman can have short tempers and short fuses too and can go way overboard and lash out and get physical over something very minor. Guys haven't cornered the market on that type of behavior.

That would never happen, because it would never get to that situation. I'm pretty consistently in a position where I can make the choice to escalate a conflict with my S.O. or walk away or S.T.F.U. and let things calm down. I've also been savvy enough to pick a partner who isn't going to pick up a knife if I leave the toilet seat up.

To bring it back to the topic: DW's responsible for the domestic violence because he picked up his kid and put him in the car when he didn't have custody and didn't have the mother's permission. That's an escalating act, and that's likely why things got out of hand.

August 1st can't get here soon enough! I need some real football to talk about!

Seriously; I can't wait for this thread to end up in the Hall of Shame.

Here are some facts one should consider when trying to understand DV:

Over 50% of orders of protection filed throughout the US are done so in conjunction with divorce/custody/child support actions in civil court (many times filed within the same day).

According to the CDC, women are responsible for 53% of child abuse and men are responsible for 47%. Child abuse is domestic violence.

Females in lesbian relationships are assaulted at the same rate as heterosexual females (also per the CDC).

Women are 6x's more likely to throw objects or use a weapon (that isn't a firearm) than men are. Men are responsible for 83% of gun violence in a domestic relationship. 2/3's of children murdered in domestic violence are killed by females.

I could keep going with the data (not my opinion, but hard data from the center for disease control), but the point is, domestic violence is an issue that equally shares responsibility by both men and women. When the picture is painted (as it so often is) as a male being the predominate aggressor and the female being victimized, it really hampers the hope that we will ever put an end to DV.

Consider this hypothetical: My wife (I am remarried) just turns into a total B, she has a drug/alcohol problem, and she is constantly attempting to incite/escalate conflict and push all my buttons and trigger points. I can tell that I am in a bad situation, and I can tell there is a high potential it could get really bad at some point where the cops are coming to my house. I don't want it to go there, I would like to stop anything from happening before it does, but what do I do (and I am not talking about loosing my temper, I am talking about just being caught in the middle of a ish storm)? Where is the support groups for men in my situation? Where are the DV shelters for men? Who would actually listen to me anyway??? The only possible support groups are mens rights activists, and I agree with you, they are a whacked out bunch I wouldn't recommend anybody get involved with. There is only one shelter for men here in this Valley: it has 12 or so beds and it is geared for homosexual men.

Now, luckily the above isn't a scenario I have to deal with, but I know some situations that are real similar to this. I have even seen folks in these types of situations have the tables completely turned on them, loose their kids, pay out large sums of money, loose their assets, and in some cases lose certain civil/constitutional rights, and mainly because people (and even both criminal and civil systems) aren't programed to look at the issue from any other perspective, but it being predominantly a male on female issue.

I am probably running additional risk of getting banned by not keeping this in the PR forum, so let me apologize for that as well... In the case of DW, he made a series of bad decisions, but by all accounts, he has fully complied with his rehabilitative process. Nobody knows for sure what happened the day his baby momma broke her collar-bone, except the 2 of them. I can tell you from experience that not everyone who pleads guilty and enters the diversion program is in fact guilty. I was strongly encouraged by my counsel to take that option during my experience: "Look man, it will be 12-18 wednesday night classes and then you are done and over with this; its off your record like it never happened." I got to tell you, I had many sleepless nights pondering what route I should go, and I ended up taking the ballsy one for all intents and purposes. For me, it came down to a simple "what is right and what is wrong" perspective/attitude, and I pushed the table. I am glad I did (and yes, I was found innocent), but it was definitely a gamble on the front end. For many people, the safe route is the diversion program.

Ah... Here's that sweet, uncut, MRA nonsense. Go to an Al-Anon meeting if you're living with someone who has a substance abuse problem--that's what it's for.
 

Arizona's Finest

Your My Favorite Mistake
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Posts
9,709
Reaction score
1
That would never happen, because it would never get to that situation. I'm pretty consistently in a position where I can make the choice to escalate a conflict with my S.O. or walk away or S.T.F.U. and let things calm down. I've also been savvy enough to pick a partner who isn't going to pick up a knife if I leave the toilet seat up.

To bring it back to the topic: DW's responsible for the domestic violence because he picked up his kid and put him in the car when he didn't have custody and didn't have the mother's permission. That's an escalating act, and that's likely why things got out of hand.



Seriously; I can't wait for this thread to end up in the Hall of Shame.



Ah... Here's that sweet, uncut, MRA nonsense. Go to an Al-Anon meeting if you're living with someone who has a substance abuse problem--that's what it's for.

Jesus dude someone is vulnerable and open like that, and THATS your response?
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,626
Reaction score
30,368
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Jesus dude someone is vulnerable and open like that, and THATS your response?

That's a hypothetical scenario, chappie:

Consider this hypothetical:

...

Now, luckily the above isn't a scenario I have to deal with, but I know some situations that are real similar to this.

Good reading skills. And, you know, if it's a process that's escalating, you take your kids and you get out of there. That's what a man does. You don't let it get to the point where things get physical.
 

Arizona's Finest

Your My Favorite Mistake
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Posts
9,709
Reaction score
1
That's a hypothetical scenario, chappie:



Good reading skills. And, you know, if it's a process that's escalating, you take your kids and you get out of there. That's what a man does. You don't let it get to the point where things get physical.

Im not sure what a chappie is. But you win this round, K9. Should have read closer. #mybad
 

speedy

the medic
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,281
Reaction score
2,426
Location
Glendale
Jesus dude someone is vulnerable and open like that, and THATS your response?

Thanks for the support AF, but the story I shared was a hypothetical; I don't have an alcoholic spouse nor does she push my buttons (maybe a chore list here and there).

I actually work as a firefighter/paramedic. I have probably ran 15-20k calls in my career, a good portion of them have entailed DV. I also get involved in legislative action as a family law reform advocate. Im not part of any male/fathers rights group, but rather a group represented by men and women alike. Not trying to beat my chest, but for those of you who know what a "parenting coordinator (PC)" is, my group I affiliate with has pushed over the last 2 years to get them reigned in. The practice- where PC's are appointed to "high conflict" co-parenting situations at a rate of $185-350/hr to decide such things as if little johnny should play t-ball on wednesdays or the trumpet on thursdays- has been radically reformed thanks to our collective efforts. I can assure you I have ZERO to do with MRA's, and frankly go out of my way to ensure every lobbyist/law maker I work with understands I think they are a bunch of fools. The MRA couldn't get the janitors mop water changed out at the house of representatives, so no, I have absolutely nothing to do with them.

Through my personal experience 12 years ago, the job I work in public safety, and my legislative actions in family law reform, I have developed a very broad and in-depth perspective of what DV is, as I get to see it a lot first hand. I probably get 3-5 calls a month, from both men and women, who are either asking for advice/perspective in their own situations or they're wanting to push something at the legislative level. I don't advocate for or against DV law per se, but because I am in the business of family law reform (where my sole motivation is the children of co-parenting families), the DV issue is consistently lurking around.

I applaud you for being able to control everything in your life so well K9, but its not as if everyone who has been jammed up or caught in the middle of a predicament is an idiot. I have seen some strange stuff happen to good people, but whenever $$$ is involved, nothing ceases to amaze me.
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
69,462
Reaction score
40,047
Location
Las Vegas
Thanks for the support AF, but the story I shared was a hypothetical; I don't have an alcoholic spouse nor does she push my buttons (maybe a chore list here and there).

I actually work as a firefighter/paramedic. I have probably ran 15-20k calls in my career, a good portion of them have entailed DV. I also get involved in legislative action as a family law reform advocate. Im not part of any male/fathers rights group, but rather a group represented by men and women alike. Not trying to beat my chest, but for those of you who know what a "parenting coordinator (PC)" is, my group I affiliate with has pushed over the last 2 years to get them reigned in. The practice- where PC's are appointed to "high conflict" co-parenting situations at a rate of $185-350/hr to decide such things as if little johnny should play t-ball on wednesdays or the trumpet on thursdays- has been radically reformed thanks to our collective efforts. I can assure you I have ZERO to do with MRA's, and frankly go out of my way to ensure every lobbyist/law maker I work with understands I think they are a bunch of fools. The MRA couldn't get the janitors mop water changed out at the house of representatives, so no, I have absolutely nothing to do with them.

Through my personal experience 12 years ago, the job I work in public safety, and my legislative actions in family law reform, I have developed a very broad and in-depth perspective of what DV is, as I get to see it a lot first hand. I probably get 3-5 calls a month, from both men and women, who are either asking for advice/perspective in their own situations or they're wanting to push something at the legislative level. I don't advocate for or against DV law per se, but because I am in the business of family law reform (where my sole motivation is the children of co-parenting families), the DV issue is consistently lurking around.

I applaud you for being able to control everything in your life so well K9, but its not as if everyone who has been jammed up or caught in the middle of a predicament is an idiot. I have seen some strange stuff happen to good people, but whenever $$$ is involved, nothing ceases to amaze me.

Bro you are wasting your breath with the likes of K9 who thinks hes an expert in all things...

He is as clueless to these situations as a baby coming out of the womb... Too many people in here are ignorant to the ins and outs of DV and the details related to them. They assume way too much and know very little. Trying to explain or give rational thought in reference to it is like beating your head against a wall.
 

speedy

the medic
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,281
Reaction score
2,426
Location
Glendale
Bro you are wasting your breath with the likes of K9 who thinks hes an expert in all things...

He is as clueless to these situations as a baby coming out of the womb... Too many people in here are ignorant to the ins and outs of DV and the details related to them. They assume way too much and know very little. Trying to explain or give rational thought in reference to it is like beating your head against a wall.

I have experienced enough to know you are exactly right Shane. Thanks for the words. It means a lot that you would rear your head for me.

I can't help but chime in because of all my experiences (not just my own personal ones, but with the many folks I have helped/spoken too/had dropped on me.

Something I have been sticking on which you should appreciate: If a dude with a gun rolled up around a gas pump and stuck it anyones face demanding money/wallet/keys/etc, nearly 100% of the people would comply. At the very least, most wouldn't try to challenge/provoke random dude with a gun... But for some reason, a cop draws a weapon and gives commands, many today feel entitled to challenge him/her, give them lip, spit on them, even advance on them. These same people want to submit their youtube videos, and convince the rest of us how afraid we should be of the police state...

I can't help but think about the DW case the same way. Keep in mind, I am not attempting to justify DW's alleged actions whatsoever, but who in their right mind tries to get physical with a dude like DW? I wouldn't, and I don't think many reasonable folks would... Some have suggested that a dude in a bad situation should grab the kids/leave the house/call police/be smarter than to get in a physical confrontation with a woman. Ok, I can't argue that. But why can't girls be held to the same standard? I realize he didn't have his parental rights established (in AZ, per ARS title 25, when a child is born out of wedlock, you MUST establish "custody" with the courts, regardless of what the birth certificate says/your notarized signature on it), but she even admitted he was the father of the child. More than likely (and I say this based from experience in helping folks), they had some "hand-shake" agreement, he came to get the child as previously agreed, and she (for whatever reason) reneged on the deal. The rest is history...

Sorry boys, I am not willing to paint this dude with a broad brush.
 

perivolaki

perivolaki
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Posts
943
Reaction score
95
Location
Surprise
That would never happen, because it would never get to that situation. I'm pretty consistently in a position where I can make the choice to escalate a conflict with my S.O. or walk away or S.T.F.U. and let things calm down. I've also been savvy enough to pick a partner who isn't going to pick up a knife if I leave the toilet seat up.

You're never in that situation till you're in that situation.

I once was cornered in my den by my wife. She was just working me over verbally and I just wanted to get out. In fact I told her I need to leave because I don't know what I might do.

She backed up, put her left foot on the left side of the doorway and her right foot on the right side of the doorway, and said "You aren't going anywhere."

Now nothing happened but I'm about 6'1" 260 and my wife is about 5' 130.

If I attempt to "Walk Away" like you advocated, using the only exit available, I've committed DV.
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,423
Reaction score
4,184
Location
Monroe NC
Can we stop hating each other and go back to hating D Wash?

This topic is very explosive and based on all the posts here a very touchy and raw subject. I agree we all need to take a deep breath and get back to the subject at hand which is DWash. DWash has us going at each other just because of what he has done. Damn DWash! I think the team should just jettison him because he's even having an effect on the fans of the team. I think we should start a release DWash campaign.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
556,112
Posts
5,433,382
Members
6,329
Latest member
cardinals2025
Top