Amare on the block.

[Mainstreet]

Trade with Toronto.... Kerr for Colangelo.

Get 'er done Kerr.

Better yet, have JC help BC to form an ownership group and buy back the Suns. With the Colangelos I always knew they cared about the best interest of the team.

 

[HooverDam]

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of moving Amare, but it sounds like its going to happen, so I hope we can at least get something reasonable. Here would be my plan for blowing it up, Id love to hear everyone's thoughts:

Deal #1
Phx sends:
Amare Stoudemire
Alando Tucker

OkC Thunder sends:
Kevin Durant
Chris Wilcox
Mouhamed Sene
#1 pick

OKC now has a sick combo for the 1-4 P&R w/ Westbrook and Amare. The Suns get a franchise type player in Durant, 2 expiring deals and a #1 pick.

Deal #2:
Phx sends:
Shaq

NY Knicks send:
Stephon Marbury
David Lee
#1 pick

D'Antoni gets a big guy he apparently likes, Shaq gets to be in a huge market and be the center of attention and NY gets rid of the cancer that is Marbury. The Suns get out from under Shaqs deal, get an expiring and a #1 pick. The Knicks seem to think they're going to lose David Lee and maybe the Suns would be able to resign him after the year is over and convince him he'd be a major piece here. Maybe all this is too much for Shaq though? Perhaps not, Starbury has negative value, so its really just Lee+ #1 for Shaq. The Suns could also throw in Grant Hill to sweeten the deal.


Deal #3:
Phx send:
Steve Nash
Matt Barnes

Toronto sends:
Andre Bargnani
Jose Calderon
Roko Ukic
2nd round pick

Toronto gets the national hero, but Im not sure this is really a deal that would actually interest them. Nash isn't that much better than Calderon at this point, and they'd be losing Bargnani. Giving them Barnes gives them a more natural front line w/ O'Neal at the 5, Bosh at the 4 and Barnes at the 3. I don't think the Suns would be able to receive a #1 pick in this deal, but perhaps a #2 would be doable.

The Suns lineup for the rest of this year would be:
C. Andrea Bargnani 13.5ppg 5.2rpg
PF. David Lee 15.9ppg, 11.7rpg
SF. Kevin Durant 25.1ppg 6.7rpg
SG. Jason Richardson 16.3ppg, 41% 3pt
PG. Jose Calderon 13ppg, 8.5APG

with a bench of:
SF Grant Hill
SG Barbosa
PG Marbury
C. Sene
PF. Wilcox
PF. Amundson
PG. Dragic
SF/PF. Dudley

Now thats a pretty bad team, and headed straight for the lottery, but hey, we're blowing it up, right? It gives the Suns a nice young PG, a future star in Durant, they keep a good scorer in JRich and get two 1st round picks to build with (as well as tons of cap space of course). They'd be pretty thin up front, but with all the picks and potentially lousy record and some lottery luck maybe they'd finally get the #1 pick and get Blake Griffin.

EDIT: Also, I fully realize 1, if not all 3 of these trades probably suck in your opinion but Im just thinking out loud here.

 

[Mainstreet]

Nash will be needed to transition the Suns into a new era (if he dare wants to).

A new era? Of turnovers, leaving your man wide open? In my opinion he's the liability. Amare could stay if he stops getting Tee'd up and stops charging every other play.

Nash has plenty of gas left in the tank. He will not be an two time MVP any longer but he still can play the game. Ask Cuban who wrote him off too early. He needs to help pass the baton to a young PG that is still learning the game.

Nash cares about the Suns while Amare just cares about his stats.

 

[nowagimp]

?

I swear some people don't watch other NBA teams. You are crying about Amare because he is playing inconsistent for the first time in his career on this abmysal team but then you turn around and demand other players like Bosh who are playing like that all the time.

Yup, inconsistency is a problem for many NBA stars, many even that have rings. That is why lebron kobe are on another level, regardless of rings they bring it every night. Most of these trade ideas do nothing for the suns, kinda like the trades that have already been made, mostly dumb. Picks would be nice, but who is gonna make them, or will they just turn around and sell them to get rid of expiring contracts(Duh).. I see more dragic and lopez selections with those picks. I think its gonna be awhile before the suns have a real shot at the elite level. Right now they play lousy selfish basketball. They dont move on defense or offense, and CP3 couldnt get these guys the ball without turning it over. Right now I dont think Phx is a desirable FA destination either. If I was a player watching management deal away guys this fast after retooling, I'd think they didnt have a clue but were likely to blame any player before themselves. What player needs that crap?

 

[cly2tw]

More specifically, it was that D'Antoni had so little interest in defense that he didn't even recognize what the Suns needed in order to play it reasonably well.

That's exactly what I meant. You don't just plug in a player and say play this or that style and it works. It was amazing how effective KT was for us despite in the dog house all season long up until the 2nd game in Spurs series. That's why we keep imagining how good we'd have been if the team prepared for starting KT with regular season games.

 

[AceP]

Getting Bosh doesn't fix anything. He's hardly better defensively than amare, and would demand as many shots. He would probably complain about his role and lack of offense next to shaq as well.

OKC won't trade Durant or Green. Those two and westbrook are the future of their franchise for crying out loud.

I have to agree with you that Bosh only slightly better than Amare in D and rebound. I wouldn't even think about it if it was 2 months ago. But now, you have to look at the bright side.

The main reason to trade is chemistry. Bosh is unhappy in Toronto, coming Phoenix he gets a fresh start. And I bet you understand honeymoon effect.

Meanwhile, you got to notice, Bosh is younger than Amare, never had serious injury, and a little better in Bball IQ.

 

[Makeplays]

Nash has plenty of gas left in the tank. He will not be an two time MVP any longer but he still can play the game. Ask Cuban who wrote him off too early. He needs to help pass the baton to a young PG that is still learning the game.

Nash cares about the Suns while Amare just cares about his stats.

I agree Amare just cares about what makes him look pretty. He doesn't want to work for it at all. As for Nash I think a good point guard doesn't need to be shown how to have a winning edge. Did Rondo or Paul have somebody show them the ropes? They jumped into their roles and played with passion and accepted the defensive cultures of their teams. Steve is victim of being involved with two organizations who have some of the weakest D's in the last 8 years. IMHO

 

[TBaslim]

What the Suns supposedly want IS just like the Nance trade all over again. For Nance the Suns got a couple of role playing bigs, a #1 that turned out to be Majerlie and KJ.

If the Suns could get anything close to that for Amare I'd be very happy.

Yup - spot on. To pull a Nance-type trade, it starts by picking the point guard of the future you want, then building from there - Cotton and JC loved KJ from the get go - he made the trade.

OKC works if you can get Westbrook, but they probably realize now how good he will be and won't let him go.

Is Mike Conley with Memphis a future All-Star at PG? Same question for Jared Bayless or Sergio Rodriquez in Portland.

 

[nowagimp]

That's exactly what I meant. You don't just plug in a player and say play this or that style and it works. It was amazing how effective KT was for us despite in the dog house all season long up until the 2nd game in Spurs series. That's why we keep imagining how good we'd have been if the team prepared for starting KT with regular season games.

KT was good for about 26-28 mins a game his stats tanked defernsively beyond that because he works so hard against bigger opponents on the block. If you go back TD made the big stats on KT when KT played alot of minutes, and then it was near the end of the game that TD really scored well on him. Giving up 40 lbs will do that in the post for 30 + minutes when you are 35-36 years old. Pops knows this as well, keep him under 26-28 mins and he's very effective. If you play him too much, he'll be worthless in the 4th on defense. Also when amare sat with foul problems, they needed KT to prevent a total collapse in rebounding. Of course all this gets lost in a simplistic analysis like "he was frozen by dantoni". KT actually plays a bit less with POPs than he did with DA, managed even better. Its not because oberto or bonner are better players, its because KT is playing undersized and is 36 years old. If he were still on this team and the suns hadnt traded marion, but had acquired hill, they would be elite with a good coach. No they couldnt handle the lakers with bynum, but that doesnt look like its gonna be an issue this year.

 

[Covert Rain]

Porter, Nash, Shaq before Amare. Stupidity is Nashaholics.

JJ COUGH.

No... Porter, Amare, Nash and then Shaq.

Porter can't coach.

Amare will always underachieve and NEVER play defense.
Nash can't play defense.
Shaq only if your going to blow everything up.

There is absolutely no reason to keep Amare and suffer just because he is young. Ridiculous. You can get something for Amare now. You trade him and start with a foundation of defense at every position.

 

[Wonder]

No... Porter, Amare, Nash and then Shaq.

Porter can't coach.

Amare will always underachieve and NEVER play defense.
Nash can't play defense.
Shaq only if your going to blow everything up.

There is absolutely no reason to keep Amare and suffer just because he is young. Ridiculous. You can get something for Amare now. You trade him and start with a foundation of defense at every position.

Shaq is the one that ****ed everything up. There's a reason why everyone is underachieving besides him. Include porter as well though.

Nash can't play defense... THATS THE ONLY EXCUSE YOU'RE GIVING?

lol... i dont want to bother now. I'd rather see amare go to orlando to play with dwight than watch an amare-less suns with two very-soon future deadbeats.

Most of you people can't be rational.

Amare can't play under a different systerm? Well then neither can nash, you DO KNOW that the only other system Amare has tried is PORTER'S? Yet people say porter is trash, but it's amare that needs to go before the aging players, some people want amare before porter.

FAIL

 

[cly2tw]

Just a few personal opinion.

Fans may yell blow-out and rebuild, but for Sarver and Kerr, they'll still try to save this season, it is their job. So :

Hold on to Nash. Because change the team leader and floor general mid-season is hugely risky.

[
Remember the undrafted Haslem helped Shaq and Wade to win in 2006? It is easy to find a PF to fit Shaq. A, Got to be fully committed in defence, not necessarily a skilled/talent defender. B, always fight hard for rebounds. C, Make open mid-range jumpers consistently. I know a number of PFs in that range.

A defensive PG is wanted and Barbosa is expendable. It's proven LB can't help to cut down Nash's minutes, and we want more defence. I prefer to keep LB as our 6th man, but we'll have see how a deal unfold.

Shaq and Nash are mutually exclusive to build an effective contender, particularly now they are so old. They impact each other's game negatively on offense and defense. Shipping Amare and keeping Nash is like completely giving up and rebuild for 5 years or more.

 

[Covert Rain]

Shaq is the one that ****ed everything up. There's a reason why everyone is underachieving besides him. Include porter as well though.

Nash can't play defense... THATS THE ONLY EXCUSE YOU'RE GIVING?

lol... i dont want to bother now. I'd rather see amare go to orlando to play with dwight than watch an amare-less suns with two very-soon future deadbeats.

Total crap.

Amare has underachieved on the boards and defense his entire career. Nash has never played defense. So actually that would be at least 3 reasons if your counting. Shaq is responsible for none of that.

 

[TBaslim]

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of moving Amare, but it sounds like its going to happen, so I hope we can at least get something reasonable. Here would be my plan for blowing it up, Id love to hear everyone's thoughts:

Deal #1
Phx sends:
Amare Stoudemire
Alando Tucker

OkC Thunder sends:
Kevin Durant
Chris Wilcox
Mouhamed Sene
#1 pick

OKC now has a sick combo for the 1-4 P&R w/ Westbrook and Amare. The Suns get a franchise type player in Durant, 2 expiring deals and a #1 pick.

Deal #2:
Phx sends:
Shaq

NY Knicks send:
Stephon Marbury
David Lee
#1 pick

D'Antoni gets a big guy he apparently likes, Shaq gets to be in a huge market and be the center of attention and NY gets rid of the cancer that is Marbury. The Suns get out from under Shaqs deal, get an expiring and a #1 pick. The Knicks seem to think they're going to lose David Lee and maybe the Suns would be able to resign him after the year is over and convince him he'd be a major piece here. Maybe all this is too much for Shaq though? Perhaps not, Starbury has negative value, so its really just Lee+ #1 for Shaq. The Suns could also throw in Grant Hill to sweeten the deal.


Deal #3:
Phx send:
Steve Nash
Matt Barnes

Toronto sends:
Andre Bargnani
Jose Calderon
Roko Ukic
2nd round pick

Toronto gets the national hero, but Im not sure this is really a deal that would actually interest them. Nash isn't that much better than Calderon at this point, and they'd be losing Bargnani. Giving them Barnes gives them a more natural front line w/ O'Neal at the 5, Bosh at the 4 and Barnes at the 3. I don't think the Suns would be able to receive a #1 pick in this deal, but perhaps a #2 would be doable.

The Suns lineup for the rest of this year would be:
C. Andrea Bargnani 13.5ppg 5.2rpg
PF. David Lee 15.9ppg, 11.7rpg
SF. Kevin Durant 25.1ppg 6.7rpg
SG. Jason Richardson 16.3ppg, 41% 3pt
PG. Jose Calderon 13ppg, 8.5APG

with a bench of:
SF Grant Hill
SG Barbosa
PG Marbury
C. Sene
PF. Wilcox
PF. Amundson
PG. Dragic
SF/PF. Dudley

Now thats a pretty bad team, and headed straight for the lottery, but hey, we're blowing it up, right? It gives the Suns a nice young PG, a future star in Durant, they keep a good scorer in JRich and get two 1st round picks to build with (as well as tons of cap space of course). They'd be pretty thin up front, but with all the picks and potentially lousy record and some lottery luck maybe they'd finally get the #1 pick and get Blake Griffin.

EDIT: Also, I fully realize 1, if not all 3 of these trades probably suck in your opinion but Im just thinking out loud here.

All pretty good trades that could happen, assuming a need to move Nash, Amare, and Shaq. I think there is no way they all happen this year. I'm down with the idea that they try to move Amare and parts to improve this year around the vets (Nash, Shaq, Hill and JRich) and see how many playoff games they get to bank. Then they blow it up this summer and get Nash and Shaq where they want to go.

One key is somehow getting back our friggin' 2010 draft pick. Decent odds it's a lottery pick, and watch it be the first year the Suns actually win the lottery - AND there is some franchise center available.

That Kurt Thomas trade was just dumb, dumb, dumb. I cannot believe they gave up the 2010 pick UNPROTECTED. How could Kerr, Sarver or the FO not know there was a risk the team would age fast and be in a transition period by 2010? Unreal...just unreal...

Sometimes I think the franchise is cursed...

 

[cly2tw]

KT was good for about 26-28 mins a game his stats tanked defernsively beyond that because he works so hard against bigger opponents on the block. If you go back TD made the big stats on KT when KT played alot of minutes, and then it was near the end of the game that TD really scored well on him. Giving up 40 lbs will do that in the post for 30 + minutes when you are 35-36 years old. Pops knows this as well, keep him under 26-28 mins and he's very effective. If you play him too much, he'll be worthless in the 4th on defense. Also when amare sat with foul problems, they needed KT to prevent a total collapse in rebounding. Of course all this gets lost in a simplistic analysis like "he was frozen by dantoni". KT actually plays a bit less with POPs than he did with DA, managed even better. Its not because oberto or bonner are better players, its because KT is playing undersized and is 36 years old. If he were still on this team and the suns hadnt traded marion, but had acquired hill, they would be elite with a good coach. No they couldnt handle the lakers with bynum, but that doesnt look like its gonna be an issue this year.

KT is most effective under 30min. You are right there. But DA wasn't playing him at all or only garbage time after he came back from injury. KT was out of the rotation! Starting him implied to make game plan around playing him say 30 min. The difference in impact would have been huge.

 

[Yuma]

You have a team with two league MVPs in Nash and Shaq, and future HOF player in Grant Hill, and various other good players and you can't win games? Excuse me, but I think in my lifetime, if someone said a team was going to have Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Shaq, and then throw in Jason Richardson and Amare Stoudemire, and they would struggle to make the playoffs, I would say they were nuts! Now everyone is on the table to trade except Nash? Blow up the whole team? WTF? Nash and Shaq may be gone in a year or two, and so may Amare. Talk about being under the cap at that point! Why not stay the course?

Heck trade the whole team player for player for the Boston Celtics!!

 

[cly2tw]

I have to agree with you that Bosh only slightly better than Amare in D and rebound. I wouldn't even think about it if it was 2 months ago. But now, you have to look at the bright side.

The main reason to trade is chemistry. Bosh is unhappy in Toronto, coming Phoenix he gets a fresh start. And I bet you understand honeymoon effect.

Meanwhile, you got to notice, Bosh is younger than Amare, never had serious injury, and a little better in Bball IQ.

With Nash, the trade Amare for Bosh wouldn't solve any problem of PG defense and turnover issues so essential to be a contender.

 

[greensborohill]

http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=1307

This comes from having an ear to the ground. Some reading of tea leaves. Some 2+2 = stuff.
I think there's a biggie brewing in NBA trade circles. A Western Conference-race-changing biggie.

I've watched with curiosity and interest as the Phoenix Suns have unraveled. It's clearly a team of contrasting styles and ill-fitting parts. I and others have said I think they should return to their up-tempo roots, and that Shaq fits better in Dallas, but multiple reports say owner Robert Sarver is dead-set on avoiding a return to SmallBall. If they keep Shaq, what's their alternative? Their only realistic alternative, it seems, might be to trade Amare Stoudemire for a PF who might fit better alongside Shaq – but I haven't really believed they'd trade Amare given his age (26) and explosiveness.
But the situation is rapidly deteriorating farther and faster in the desert than anyone could have imagined, and it may now be past the point of no return. While I don't claim to have moles inside the Suns HQ, little snippets here and there from people I listen to (should we call them "our sources" in order to make this a true Vesceyesque rumor-generator?) have me thinking that a big trade is brewing. ... or certainly, serious talks that could lead to this big trade.


One that involves two playoff teams and rivals in the Western Conference.

One that could create a deadline domino effect in the West, just like last year.

Don't be surprised if Amare gets traded by the deadline to Portland for LaMarcus Aldridge (with Raef Lafrentz included as trade filler for rules purposes). The front offices in Portland and Phoenix have been regular trade partners in recent years, and much of the young talent now residing in Portland has come via picks they have scored in those deals with the Suns. These franchises have an open dialogue that they are comfortable with, and I think they are talking again. Seriously talking.

Both sides may still be angling for a little more of this or that to be included while they're dealing. For example, Phoenix would also love to score a backup and heir to Nash and Portland has amassed a rich cache of youngsters at PG. Why for Portland? Amare would provide a more experienced and explosive interior scorer in the middle of the Portland youth corps. While Dallas-are-native Aldridge is young and talented, the track record of Amare is much more enticing - and he's still only 26.


Why for Phoenix? Aldridge is a bit more perimeter-oriented by nature (which better complements Shaq). He's also much more of a contributor on defense which the Suns badly need. And there's no question that Amare, for all his gifts, is unhappy, doesn't fit alongside Shaq, and presents a big problem to the Suns.

Both are young with a long future ahead of them in the NBA. It's a huge gamble for both teams however, in trading away a star performer from the center of a playoff contender and shaking up the mix, but I think the rewards on both sides are too great to pass up, and after much hand-wringing -- this deal really could happen.

After writing the above, but before we could get to print, other reports have emerged. Yahoo Sports says today that sources say Kerr has told teams that he’s willing to trade anyone on his roster except for Steve Nash, and goes on to speculate that Stoudemire is going somewhere and that the Suns are fielding offers for him. That jibes with my perception, and furthermore, I say we should look for more articles from others in the coming days as the Suns now go under the microscope, with mentions of young PFs like Bosh and Beasley and potential trade partners like New York (where Amare's former coach D'Antoni now runs the wide-open offensive system STAT loves). Anything can happen - but we have reason to think that when the dust settles the Suns' partner will be Portland, and the acquisition will be Aldridge.


And what might this have to do with Dallas?


If it happens, this appreciably alters the playoff chase in the West as well as the fortunes of the two teams themselves. Adding Stoudemire's explosive interior play to Portland takes them from a nice up-and-coming talent-laden team of the future to a scary threat right now, and adding an enthusiastic talented PF who is willing to work on defense alongside Shaq brings Phoenix right back into the mix of contenders. If it happens (and I really think it will), expect this deal to motivate other teams – San Antonio? Houston? And yes, Dallas? -- to scurry to the trade table to discuss upgrades of their own in a quest to keep up with the moving and shaking.

Fisher knows what he's talking about, he's connected. We'll see. Obviously, there will be a line waiting to see what they can get Amare for.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

The Suns lineup for the rest of this year would be:
C. Andrea Bargnani 13.5ppg 5.2rpg
PF. David Lee 15.9ppg, 11.7rpg
SF. Kevin Durant 25.1ppg 6.7rpg
SG. Jason Richardson 16.3ppg, 41% 3pt
PG. Jose Calderon 13ppg, 8.5APG

with a bench of:
SF Grant Hill
SG Barbosa
PG Marbury
C. Sene
PF. Wilcox
PF. Amundson
PG. Dragic
SF/PF. Dudley

I disagree that is a bad team. First of all, I move Wilcox up by Hill and Barbosa off the bench. Second of all, that is a well-balanced team. It's certainly weak in the middle (Bargnani at C?), but I'd go for it. You have your scrapper who doesn't need the ball for effectiveness (Lee), your court general (Calderon), your slasher (JRich), your shooter off the ball (Durant) and a fairly well-rounded player in Bargnani.

It is a small ball roster, but it's a great start on rebuilding....

 

[Covert Rain]

You have a team with two league MVPs in Nash and Shaq, and future HOF player in Grant Hill, and various other good players and you can't win games? Excuse me, but I think in my lifetime, if someone said a team was going to have Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Shaq, and then throw in Jason Richardson and Amare Stoudemire, and they would struggle to make the playoffs, I would say they were nuts! Now everyone is on the table to trade except Nash? Blow up the whole team? WTF? Nash and Shaq may be gone in a year or two, and so may Amare. Talk about being under the cap at that point! Why not stay the course?

Heck trade the whole team player for player for the Boston Celtics!!

Maybe I have a tad of optimism left in me because I am hesitant about blowing it all up.

My first choice would be to trade Amare for a PF who can rebound and play D.....don't worry about him having an offensive game. If you can get a backup PG out of the deal. Keep everyone else and make a run.

However, if making one last run is not an option, you must trade Nash, Shaq and Hill too while you can. Nash because he doesn't help you rebuild under a defensive philosophy. Shaq and Hill because neither are going to want to stay for a rebuilding team and you might as well get what you can get.

 

[shazaam6]

Bosh looks like a praying mantis.

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[HooverDam]

I disagree that is a bad team. First of all, I move Wilcox up by Hill and Barbosa off the bench. Second of all, that is a well-balanced team. It's certainly weak in the middle (Bargnani at C?), but I'd go for it. You have your scrapper who doesn't need the ball for effectiveness (Lee), your court general (Calderon), your slasher (JRich), your shooter off the ball (Durant) and a fairly well-rounded player in Bargnani.

It is a small ball roster, but it's a great start on rebuilding....

Sorry I wasn't organizing the bench in anyway other than the order in which their names popped into my head. You're right, Wilcox would be higher up if it was listed in any non random fashion

When I said its a 'bad' team, I mean, it won't make the playoffs in the West this year in all likelihood. It would take a while to gel and figure things out, and by that time theyd be in the lottery.

Also the more I think about it, the Durant + #1 for Amare is probably asking way too much for the Suns. Replace Green for Durant and its more realistic, but perhaps now its benefitting OKC too heavily. Maybe 2 #1's, plus Green for Amare is more realistic.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Green/Unprotected#1 or Durant/Top10protected#1 are fair.

Hell, I think OKC is tracking #4 in the draft this year. So, I take the Green deal. We still end up with a future 3 (Green), but we get a high pick to facilitate the rebuilding now.

 

[Blackification]

Amar'e to Memphis for Rudy Gay, Darko Milicic and Hakim Warrick.

Amar'e to Portland for LaMarcus Aldrige and Raef Lafrentz.

So those are the two offers so far? Memphis is ok and so is portland but if memphis throws in a draft pick they could win it. Plus suns don't want to give him to a western team let alone a contender with a better record. What if Amare goes off who is going to stop him on the suns team?

 

[Makeplays]

Amar'e to Memphis for Rudy Gay, Darko Milicic and Hakim Warrick.

Amar'e to Portland for LaMarcus Aldrige and Raef Lafrentz.

So those are the two offers so far? Memphis is ok and so is portland but if memphis throws in a draft pick they could win it. Plus suns don't want to give him to a western team let alone a contender with a better record. What if Amare goes off who is going to stop him on the suns team?

Well as of late, he's been nullified by lessor players. He basically has one move. Face the rim, stutter step and go to the right, take the angle to the hoop, and get the charge.