Another reason why Gortat needs to start

[BC867]

We all know that Gortat is a better overall Center than Lopez, despite Robin's 13 points and 13 rebounds in 24 minutes vs. Marcin's 9 points and 6 rebounds in 17 minutes against Dallas.

Despite that, we lost the game. Why? Two reasons.

Gentry didn't have the confidence in Lopez (our lead Center this night) to close the game, so we fell behind without a Center on the floor, even when Tyson Chandler came back in for the Mavs and had an easy put-back, which put the game out of reach for us.

But here's the big reason. I believe that Gortat has been playing tired. If you are going to play starter's minutes, it's better to be active after warming up, instead of sitting on the bench for half of the quarter. Letdown and fatigue had a chance to set in.

It's a lot easier for the Center who generally gets the lesser minutes, Lopez, to come in after sitting on the bench.

I've supported Alvin Gentry, but he's making it more difficult for Gortat to succeed. It's his job to put his best players in a situation where they can succeed.

Starter's minutes are best served being filled by a starter. Lopez showed that tonight. But, in the long run, Gortat is the better all-around Center that we so desperately need to rise above .500.

C'mon Alvin. Stop trying to re-invent the game. It's been around for a long time.

 

[desertdawg]

We started Carter and let Gortat come off the bench, made sense at the time of the trade. Gentry decided to quit mixing the starting line up, that was a good sign.
But now Gortat does need to start and VC needs to fade away, just sayin.

 

[Evil Ash]

We all know that Gortat is a better overall Center than Lopez, despite Robin's 13 points and 13 rebounds in 24 minutes vs. Marcin's 9 points and 6 rebounds in 17 minutes against Dallas.

Despite that, we lost the game. Why? Two reasons.

Gentry didn't have the confidence in Lopez (our lead Center this night) to close the game, so we fell behind without a Center on the floor, even when Tyson Chandler came back in for the Mavs and had an easy put-back, which put the game out of reach for us.

He didn't put Gortat in the game either so this logic goes to blind homerism

But here's the big reason. I believe that Gortat has been playing tired. If you are going to play starter's minutes, it's better to be active after warming up, instead of sitting on the bench for half of the quarter. Letdown and fatigue had a chance to set in.

It's a lot easier for the Center who generally gets the lesser minutes, Lopez, to come in after sitting on the bench.

Gortat isn't getting tired because he's coming off the bench and playing alot of minutes. Its just that he's getting alot of minutes which he's not used to because for the most part he's just been a benchwarmer in Orlando. Add on top of that that the Suns system requires a great deal of running which I'm not sure that he's used to.

In his only start in a Suns uniform, he regressed and seemed to be less aggressive than usual. Maybe Gentry doesn't want to change his routine because of the fear that he'll lose his aggressiveness.

Its making a change for the sake of making a change and staring a thread like this when Lopez has a much better game is very telling

 

[desertdawg]

He didn't put Gortat in the game either so this logic goes to blind homerism



Gortat isn't getting tired because he's coming off the bench and playing alot of minutes. Its just that he's getting alot of minutes which he's not used to because for the most part he's just been a benchwarmer in Orlando. Add on top of that that the Suns system requires a great deal of running which I'm not sure that he's used to.

In his only start in a Suns uniform, he regressed and seemed to be less aggressive than usual. Maybe Gentry doesn't want to change his routine because of the fear that he'll lose his aggressiveness.

Its making a change for the sake of making a change and staring a thread like this when Lopez has a much better game is very telling

Wow, just wow.

I think I will go to bed on that note.

 

[Evil Ash]

Wow, just wow.

I think I will go to bed on that note.

Honesty hurts. There really is no reason to start a thread regarding a switch at center on a night when Lopez was clearly outplaying Gortat.

There may be reasons like I mentioned above that could be behind Gentry's decision to keep Gortat to bench but some people on here want to plug there ears and sceam so that you don't have to listen to them.

Our problems lie elsewhere and we should worry about fixing those instead of just worrying about Gorat's ego.

 

[Covert Rain]

Honesty hurts. There really is no reason to start a thread regarding a switch at center on a night when Lopez was clearly outplaying Gortat.

It sure does. So why were at it......there isn't a reason to stop talking about Lopez going to the bench just because he has a nice game every once in a blue moon. This is the first time he has gotten double digit rebounds in the last 36 starts. 36!!!!!!!!

I have posted many times it's not only Lopez's rebounding that beyond sucks but I have posted Lopez's efficiency stats, defense against opponents and when compared to Gortat it is not even close. There is not one good team on the planet that would be playing Lopez over Gortat.

So Robin played a decent game and actually rebounded. It would have been nice if it didn't take him 36 games to actually play like a legit 7 footer.

There may be reasons like I mentioned above that could be behind Gentry's decision to keep Gortat to bench but some people on here want to plug there ears and sceam so that you don't have to listen to them.

Maybe you plugged your ears? It was Gentry that said he didn't want to mess with Lopez's confidence. Sounds like this move by Gentry has more to with Lopez and his delicate ego then Gortat's. Obviously, Gortat's ego is less sensitive because he would have a reason to bitch if he wanted do. Overall he has outplayed Lopez and it's not even close.

Our problems lie elsewhere and we should worry about fixing those instead of just worrying about Gorat's ego.

Elsewhere? Since when doesn't one of our problems lie with our starters? Since when doesn't one of our problems lie in bad starts at the start of some quarters when our starters are in?

The Suns have one of the worst starting lineups in the NBA in terms of rebounding and defense. The two very things that Lopez was drafted for he sucks at. Lopez has the dubious honor of currently being in the running for 47th most efficient center, not only one of the worst at rebounding among starting centers but one of the worst PERIOD. Oh...and he has been at the bottom in the NBA at defending opposing players all season long.

I would say we need to fix that when that caliber of player is starting every single night. Would it fix everything? Ofcourse not but you can't fix a leaky damn if you ignore one of the gaping holes.

 

[BC867]

Honesty hurts. There really is no reason to start a thread regarding a switch at center on a night when Lopez was clearly outplaying Gortat.

There may be reasons like I mentioned above that could be behind Gentry's decision to keep Gortat to bench but some people on here want to plug there ears and sceam so that you don't have to listen to them.

Our problems lie elsewhere and we should worry about fixing those instead of just worrying about Gorat's ego.

Is there anyone on this planet who would advocate starting Dragic at the most important position on the floor -- playmaker -- for his 12 minutes (even if he has one good game), while Steve Nash gets stale sitting on the bench for six minutes after pre-game warmups and again for six minutes after halftime warmups before coming in? Of course not.

Then why in the world are we doing it to our most physical position?

Gortat won't build the stamina or the routine for his role as predominant Center by continuing to come off the bench, as he did in Orlando.

It is not about screaming. Or about anyone's ego. Nor is it about using a game that we lost as a model for the best plan.

Lopez outplayed Gortat on this night because Marcin hasn't been given the advantage of establishing himself against the opponent from the start of the game. Robin has, but hasn't taken advantage of it very often.

I suggest that planning the role of our best Center and letting it gel before we get too far beyond the halfway point of the season is indeed a significant reason for its own thread.

Unless anyone thinks that, game after game, Lopez is our best all-around Center.

Has anyone read "The Art of War"? You establish territory early to be victorious at the end. We're not doing that. And against Dallas, we lost a game that we could have won, despite their record vs. ours.

That would have felt good. Losing when we were so close did not. Isn't that what being a long-time fan is all about?

 

[Evil Ash]

It sure does. So why were at it......there isn't a reason to stop talking about Lopez going to the bench just because he has a nice game every once in a blue moon. This is the first time he has gotten double digit rebounds in the last 36 starts. 36!!!!!!!!

I have posted many times it's not only Lopez's rebounding that beyond sucks but I have posted Lopez's efficiency stats, defense against opponents and when compared to Gortat it is not even close. There is not one good team on the planet that would be playing Lopez over Gortat.

So Robin played a decent game and actually rebounded. It would have been nice if it didn't take him 36 games to actually play like a legit 7 footer.

Not arguing that Gortat isn't the better player or that Lopez needs to be more consistent. My point is that we have gotten into contention with this lineup and it seems to be working. We've had struggles in the 2nd and 4th qtr when Nash is out and instead of focusing on that we have to have threads like this one that make it sound like starting Gortat (even though he has struggled the past two games) would be the cure to all our woes.

Not even close. To be perfectly honest I don't think it changes much of anything

Maybe you plugged your ears? It was Gentry that said he didn't want to mess with Lopez's confidence. Sounds like this move by Gentry has more to with Lopez and his delicate ego then Gortat's. Obviously, Gortat's ego is less sensitive because he would have a reason to bitch if he wanted do. Overall he has outplayed Lopez and it's not even close.

So if Gortat is fine with it, why do it? We're not losing games because Lopez when off is struggling. He plays about 5 mins and we're often not that far behind at that point, if at all.

When Nash is out we were -17 tonight. -17!!! Doesn't that seem like the problem we should be focusing on instead of more ways to kiss Gortat's ass.

Elsewhere? Since when don't our problems lie with consistency at the center position? The Suns have one of the worst starting lineups in the NBA in terms of rebounding and defense. Lopez has the dubios honor of currently being in the running for 47th most efficient center, not only one of the worst at rebounding among starting centers but one of the worst PERIOD. Oh...and he has been at the bottom in the NBA at defending opposing players all season long.

I would say we need to fix that when that caliber of player is starting every single night. Would it fix everything? Ofcourse not but you can't fix a leaky damn if you ignore one of the gaping holes.

You make it sound like we're down 20 points everytime that Gortat comes into the game. The +/- of our starting lineup hasn't been that much of a problem. The +/- of our backups on this team when Nash is on the bench has been and has resulted in us losing winnable games.

Not to mention that if you say that Lopez's production is worse, how does him going to the bench improve an already struggling unit? Here's a hint it likely wouldn't. In fact, it might make it worse if that's even possible at this point

If you use your dam analogy, you're ignoring the gaping hole that is about a yard in length to focus on a crack that's about a couple of inches. We blow one problem way out of proportion and ignore the real one staring right at us

 

[Evil Ash]

Is there anyone on this planet who would advocate starting Dragic at the most important position on the floor -- playmaker -- for his 12 minutes (even if he has one good game), while Steve Nash gets stale sitting on the bench for six minutes after pre-game warmups and again for six minutes after halftime warmups before coming in? Of course not.

Then why in the world are we doing it to our most physical position?

Gortat won't build the stamina or the routine for his role as predominant Center by continuing to come off the bench, as he did in Orlando.

It is not about screaming. Or about anyone's ego. Nor is it about using a game that we lost as a model for the best plan.

Lopez outplayed Gortat on this night because Marcin hasn't been given the advantage of establishing himself against the opponent from the start of the game. Robin has, but hasn't taken advantage of it very often.

I suggest that planning the role of our best Center and letting it gel before we get too far beyond the halfway point of the season is indeed a significant reason for its own thread.

Unless anyone thinks that, game after game, Lopez is our best all-around Center.

Has anyone read "The Art of War"? You establish territory early to be victorious at the end. We're not doing that. And against Dallas, we lost a game that we could have won, despite their record vs. ours.

That would have felt good. Losing when we were so close did not. Isn't that what being a long-time fan is all about?

Ok seriously you are now making crap up on the spot.

-Gortat has been fine coming off the bench until the last few games.

- He's likely gassed after being used to playing 10 mins a game in Orlando to suddenly playing 25+ mins a game now in an uptempo system. Its caught up with him the past few games.

-The start of the game has not been the problem.

-Lopez WAS NOT THE REASON WE LOST TONIGHT. In case you forgot Gortat wasn't in the game at the end either so by your logic Gentry had lost faith in both of them. It was a stupid decision to go small and it bit us in the ass

Our problem revolves around the fact that we are absolutely attrocious when Nash goes on the bench typically in the 4th qtr so I ask again how does putting an inconsistent center who is often not aggressive enough on that unit improve it?

 

[Jonah]

Gortat isn't getting tired because he's coming off the bench and playing alot of minutes.

Not sure about that.
There's a difference playing 32 mpg off the bench when you play 2x16 min in the middle of 1st and 2nd half, and 32 mpg as a starter when you play 4x8 min. I think Gortat can be less tired and more efficient when starting each game.

But I agree that main Suns problems lies elsewhere.

 

[slinslin]

Um you are trying to make a pro Gortat argument based on the last game?

Let me summarize how we lost against the Mavs.

Lopez went to the bench for Gortat. Mavs go on a 12-0 run or something and lead by 9 suddenly beginning of the 4th quarter and how did it happen?

There were 3 straight posessions were Gortat simply failed. He forced a bad 14 foot jumpshot that missed, then he bought Nowitzkis fake who passed past Gortat for some Maverick player that got an easy layup, next posession Gortat forced a very flat hookshot from 10 feet or so that never had a chance and between all that Dragic couldn't run the offense.

 

[slinslin]

Not sure about that.
There's a difference playing 32 mpg off the bench when you play 2x16 min in the middle of 1st and 2nd half, and 32 mpg as a starter when you play 4x8 min. I think Gortat can be less tired and more efficient when starting each game.

But I agree that main Suns problems lies elsewhere.

Umm what? If he could play 4x8 as a strater then he can play 4x8 as a bench player too.

Has nothing to do with who starts.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't know how one can make a pro Gortat (starting) argument after the Mavs game. Lopez was the superior player last night. If Lopez keeps improving (he is only 22) he may turn out to be the better player. Who knows when Lopez will turn the corner. He may have already. Only time will tell.

The Suns lost because they lack enough outside shooting particulary at SG and lack a PG that can run the team when Nash is out of the game. Also some defense would have helped. Of course the Mavs were the better team and continually ran wave after wave of talent at the Sun all night long.

 

[desertdawg]

I don't know how one can make a pro Gortat (starting) argument after the Mavs game. Lopez was the superior player last night. If Lopez keeps improving (he is only 22) he may turn out to be the better player. Who knows when Lopez will turn the corner. He may have already. Only time will tell.

The Suns lost because they lack enough outside shooting particulary at SG and lack a PG that can run the team when Nash is out of the game. Also some defense would have helped. Of course the Mavs were the better team and continually ran wave after wave of talent at the Sun all night long.

Lopez had a great game last night. Wish he did it more often, then he might be worth starting.

 

[Mainstreet]

Lopez had a great game last night. Wish he did it more often, then he might be worth starting.

Lopez is the starter. So after last night's game you want to move him to the bench?

 

[elindholm]

When Nash is out we were -17 tonight. -17!!! Doesn't that seem like the problem we should be focusing on instead of more ways to kiss Gortat's ass.

LOL, pithy, yet eloquent. Excellently put.

 

[desertdawg]

Lopez is the starter. So after last night's game you want to move him to the bench?

Lopez had a great game last night, I wish he did it more often, then he might be worth starting. Gortat is better and more consistent, plain and simple. If Lopez played like that every night, it would become an awesome problem to discuss, but Lopez aint there yet. Doesn't matter who Gentry starts, any other coach in the league would start Gortat over Lopez. If you dispute that, I will just say every other coach in the league starts their best big when healthy.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't know how one can make a pro Gortat (starting) argument after the Mavs game. Lopez was the superior player last night. If Lopez keeps improving (he is only 22) he may turn out to be the better player. Who knows when Lopez will turn the corner. He may have already. Only time will tell.

So, Lopez was the Superior player last night. So what? How many time has that happened since Gortat got here? How many times has Lopez posted double digit rebounds period? How many games has he not played himself to the bench with crap defense?

You cannot have a starting center who gets double digit rebounds once in 36 games. You cannot have a starting center who manages only double digit rebounds 3 times the ENTIRE season.

How anybody can say this guy is starting material and keep a straight face is beyond me.

Hell by that logic let's move one of our other bench players into the starting lineup the next time they perform better then a starter.

Lopez had a great game last night, I wish he did it more often, then he might be worth starting. Gortat is better and more consistent, plain and simple. If Lopez played like that every night, it would become an awesome problem to discuss, but Lopez aint there yet. Doesn't matter who Gentry starts, any other coach in the league would start Gortat over Lopez. If you dispute that, I will just say every other coach in the league starts their best big when healthy.

+1

 

[JS22]

Um you are trying to make a pro Gortat argument based on the last game?

Let me summarize how we lost against the Mavs.

Lopez went to the bench for Gortat. Mavs go on a 12-0 run or something and lead by 9 suddenly beginning of the 4th quarter and how did it happen?

There were 3 straight posessions were Gortat simply failed. He forced a bad 14 foot jumpshot that missed, then he bought Nowitzkis fake who passed past Gortat for some Maverick player that got an easy layup, next posession Gortat forced a very flat hookshot from 10 feet or so that never had a chance and between all that Dragic couldn't run the offense.

I just knew you'd make an appearance in this thread after vanished during the recent Lopez crap streak. One good game by Lopez, one average game by Gortat, and you're hear to let us know how terrible Gortat is.

Where were you when he was putting up 15/10 while Lopez was getting 3 fouls in 5 minutes every game?

 

[Jonah]

Umm what? If he could play 4x8 as a strater then he can play 4x8 as a bench player too.

Has nothing to do with who starts.

That's not how it usually works. Gortat enters in the middle of 1st and 3rd qtr. He sould be, and is, tired at the end of each half.

 

[Covert Rain]

I just knew you'd make an appearance in this thread after vanished during the recent Lopez crap streak. One good game by Lopez, one average game by Gortat, and you're hear to let us know how terrible Gortat is.

Where were you when he was putting up 15/10 while Lopez was getting 3 fouls in 5 minutes every game?

That's is his M.O.

He stays silent when Gortat is playing well then jumps on him when he is not, making a pro-Lopez statement when the opposite happens. I have a ton of instances I could point to with teams going on huge runs with Lopez out there in the last 20 games. I have posted many.

You have to give him credit. He isn't a closet Lopez fan and doesn't let facts stand in the way.

 

[Chaplin]

Starting Gortat would only make a very minor difference, if any at all. People keep harping on this for some crazy reason. We aren't losing games because Gortat is coming off the bench. Plain and simple. After last night's game, that becomes even MORE apparent.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I just don't understand. You guys have started threads on this subject and made many, many hundreds of posts arguing in favor of Gortat starting and yet, nothing has changed. Is it possible that we aren't in control of this decision? Is it possible that whining and moaning and complaining over and over again is growing tiresome? Nah, surely if we continue to beat this issue to death, the PTB will take notice and send Gortat to the starting lineup rescue. Hooray!

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Starting Gortat would only make a very minor difference, if any at all. People keep harping on this for some crazy reason. We aren't losing games because Gortat is coming off the bench. Plain and simple. After last night's game, that becomes even MORE apparent.

Well I guess we will never know. We won't know if that will help the Suns starters get more rebounds or prevent more early runs. We won't get to see if getting in early rebounding deficits or preventing few paint points early will make a difference. We won't know if Gortat can actually play better getting more time with the starters. We won't know if Gortat being gassed at the end of the 2nd or 4th because he played the previous 10 minutes would have an impact either down the stretch of each half.

Well I guess we should all be used to the Suns unconventional ways by now. After all, the Suns have made a name for themselves, with small ball, 7 seconds or less (with even less defense), playing guys out of position and now starting inferior players over someone better off the bench.

 

[Chaplin]

Well I guess we will never know. We won't know if that will help the Suns starters get more rebounds or prevent more early runs. We won't get to see if getting in early rebounding deficits or preventing few paint points early will make a difference. We won't know if Gortat can actually play better getting more time with the starters. We won't know if Gortat being gassed at the end of the 2nd or 4th because he played the previous 10 minutes would have an impact either down the stretch of each half.

Well I guess we should all be used to the Suns unconventional ways by now. After all, the Suns have made a name for themselves, with small ball, 7 seconds or less (with even less defense), playing guys out of position and now starting inferior players over someone better off the bench.

Our recent losses had nothing to do with early runs or early rebounding deficits, they are all about the bench melting down. Of course, that also includes Gortat, but I know nobody wants to hear that.