At Odds (Not Oz) With Whiz

[Duckjake]

All you are doing is judging his record. You know how I know that? Because if we were 4-0, you would be writing Shakespearean poems about his "largesse" and "brilliance" - even if eveything else went down the way it did to a letter.

Yes all we are doing is judging his record. Saints 45 Cards 14. Falcons 41 Cards 7. Chargers 41 Cards 10.

We have gone from best in franchise history to worst in franchise history in just a few months.

What is really concerning is that we have had a wholesale makeover of the team and they are still getting destroyed by the better NFL teams.

Not just losing but getting hammered!!!!!!

I would say it is reasonable to think something is really wrong at Warner and Hardy.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I just think its because I am reasonable and have perspective.

While I agree with you on some points, I don't think there are many bandwagon fans in the crowd here. Yeah, it may seem like some comments are overly harsh to you.

I am not defending anyones opinion here, only want to say one mans definition of reason and perspective may not be the same as yours.

 

[ajcardfan]

If that was a shot at me and my haikus, I have never said Whiz is an idiot, ever. If that was a shot at me, you can just say it. Perhaps when your ripping people, it might be helpful to say who it is you are speaking of. If it wasn't a shot at me, I apologize and its all good over here.
I've been a fan since they came to Az.

Look at who he quoted in his post. That's who he is talking about.

 

[azsouthendzone]

What is going on around here? I see azsouthend will call me a "fanboy" because I am not getting the torches and pitchforks read to storm Wiz's Ahwatukee home.

I just think its because I am reasonable and have perspective.

Show me any post where I have called anyone a fanboy or any name prior to getting lambasted for stating my opinion. I don't focus on posters, just what is written. Keep it to football, not personal attacks if you can.

You have your reasons for your beliefs. You said yourself that they could go 0-16 and that is ok because of the Super Bowl. If that is the standard you want to see here, one Super Bowl appearance, fine. That is not ok with me. I want to know why it deteriorated so fast so it doesnt happen again, and to figure out the source so it can be fixed. Good teams retool. Bad teams rebuild. I BELIEVE Whiz came into a situation with a team loaded with talent. I also have stated time and time again my concern for how he manages the roster (even while getting slammed mercilessly by people like you). Now many of the posters on here, and media alike, are stating the same concerns, and that is met with personal insults. No one wants a cookie, just a little respect for stating their opinion. We won't know the effects of everything being discusssed for a few years anyway. Why discussing a football coach has to get personal is baffling. And enough of the "bandwagon" jargon. Everyone here is as die hard as they come. Always have been.

 

[desertdawg]

Look at who he quoted in his post. That's who he is talking about.

My bad, I love me some Whiz.

 

[TheCardFan]

Do I really want to play for this guy?

I ask you---you tell me---

Mitch...with all due respect, I think your over-reacting.

I have wanted Whis to "call out" some of our players and performances over the years and I think he could have been even more direct yesterday with the defense. I do agree that his comments seemed more like put downs vs challenges and this was very un-Whis like.

I don't understand the whole "pulling back the curtain" stuff or the need to start blaming him for succeeding with "Denny Greens drafted players" or now blaming him for losing without Kurt Warner. It's funny how we turn on our own so fast. I will still take his "body of work" vs throwing out the history for the first 4 games of the 2011 season. People love drama.

I will end with two thoughts.

1) This team is hurting the most by the loss of Kurt Warner. Whis knew it and tried to trade for Whitehurst...drafted a QB...and signed a veteran QB to compete with Leinart. The only QB (available) that could have upgraded this team was McNabb and he would have upgraded 15 other teams as well. I wanted him as did others on this board but we didn't get him...it happens. I don't think you can blame Whis on that one but I am sure people do.

2) This team is not any better or worse with DA, Leinart, or Max Hall starting. Warner is a HOF QB and think about what losing that kind of player would mean to another team. Take Manning away from the Colts or Brees away from the Saints and where would they be? Right where we are today.

 

[TheCardFan]

We have gone from best in franchise history to worst in franchise history in just a few months.

You cant be serious Duck...this team is far from the worst in franchise history.

From 2006 to 1985...there are 15-20 worse teams in that 21 year span.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

If that was a shot at me and my haikus, I have never said Whiz is an idiot, ever. If that was a shot at me, you can just say it. Perhaps when your ripping people, it might be helpful to say who it is you are speaking of. If it wasn't a shot at me, I apologize and its all good over here.
I've been a fan since they came to Az.

LOL bro I didn't even know you wrote haikus. I was referring to the ebb and flow and occasional use of iambic pentameter of my main man Mitch.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think that ultimately what is going on right now is that the ownership, anticipating a lockout next year, told Whiz "Look, we'll give you this big extension, but we're going to have a low budget team this year. Make the most of it and plan for the future."

That is ultimately why we didn't pursue McNabb and why we went with DA and cut Matt. That is why we cut Rolle. That is why we wouldn't "overpay" for Dansby in order to keep our D strong. Why we traded Boldin.

Whiz looked at the dollar signs. He thought to himself, "Ok. I can be a yes man to ownership for one year. Have a nice draft. When the labor dispute is resolved it will finally be my team with my players. In the mean time, since I'm being forced to go with scrub QBs and a gutted defense, I'll cash my paycheck and try to find some diamonds in the rough."

The last 3 years ownership actually spent the money to keep this team deep. Warner retired and we cleared the books. It's really no surprise that we suck. Whiz is simply playing the cards he's been dealt.

This is hands down the best post in the thread.

 

[desertdawg]

LOL bro I didn't even know you wrote haikus. I was referring to the ebb and flow and occasional use of iambic pentameter of my main man Mitch.

Sorry man, now I feel like an ass. I suck. Stay up homie.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Yes all we are doing is judging his record. Saints 45 Cards 14. Falcons 41 Cards 7. Chargers 41 Cards 10.

We have gone from best in franchise history to worst in franchise history in just a few months.

What is really concerning is that we have had a wholesale makeover of the team and they are still getting destroyed by the better NFL teams.

Not just losing but getting hammered!!!!!!

I would say it is reasonable to think something is really wrong at Warner and Hardy.

Duck I hope you know I am not talking about you when I am referencing some of the inane posters on this board, because while I don't agree with you much, I respect your opnion.

But the bolded is just crazy. C'mon man I KNOW you were there for the Buddy Ryan, Tobin, and Mac years. You can't be serious.

You remember this little 4 out of 5 game run?

37-29 Loss
48-20 Loss
35-14 Loss
47-7 Loss

That was the Super Bowl year. With Warner.

By your logic that was WORST season in franchise history?

C'mon man your better then that. This is a rough spot. But as someone wiser then me once said....

This too shall pass

 

[Duckjake]

You cant be serious Duck...this team is far from the worst in franchise history.

From 2006 to 1985...there are 15-20 worse teams in that 21 year span.

Go back and look and see if you can find any Cardinal team in the last 50 years that lost 41-7 and 41-10 in the first four weeks of the season. That's what I mean by worst in franchise history.

Should have made that a little more clear.

 

[Duckjake]

Duck I hope you know I am not talking about you when I am referencing some of the inane posters on this board, because while I don't agree with you much, I respect your opnion.

But the bolded is just crazy. C'mon man I KNOW you were there for the Buddy Ryan, Tobin, and Mac years. You can't be serious.

You remember this little 4 out of 5 game run?

37-29 Loss
48-20 Loss
35-14 Loss
47-7 Loss

That was the Super Bowl year. With Warner.

By your logic that was WORST season in franchise history?

C'mon man your better then that. This is a rough spot. But as someone wiser then me once said....

This too shall pass

See my post above which is what I was referring to but the Cards have now allowed over 40 points to opponents 4 times in their last 6 games. That's real bad.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Sorry man, now I feel like an ass. I suck. Stay up homie.

Desert Dawg A Haiku


Dude, you are an ass
pretend to be otherwise
but we are not fooled

 

[Cheesebeef]

You remember this little 4 out of 5 game run?

37-29 Loss
48-20 Loss
35-14 Loss
47-7 Loss

That was the Super Bowl year. With Warner.

that season really was absolutely insane. We open the season with two big wins (10 pointer on the road, 21 at home) then dropped two in a row (one of them giving up 56 points!) then won 5 of 6 (with some very uncharacteristic blowouts thrown in) then had the 4 of 5 game run up there, then went to the freaking Super Bowl!

Just insane. We were good, then bad, the really good, then REALLY bad, then SUPER BOWL GOOD.

sadly, that's probably not on tap this year. I see us being REALLY bad for the remainder. If we're that way next year, I'll start bitching (A LOT and you know this!), but this off-season was such a cluster-**** from retirements to crap finally nipping us in the butt with Dansby (he should never have had to been franchised twice) to hording pennies before the lockout that I'm putting a lot of the blame where I used to put it and giving Wiz a mulligan. Like I said, this happens next year, and you'll see the good old cheese and you know and loathe.

 

[Rats]

We are just Fans so there is alot we do not know. We voice our likes and dislikes from week to week. Mostly on this board it is not about bandwagon so I do not know why people go there. We have been fans to long. Let me tell you what we

do know. We know when things stink. We know when we are being sold a bill of goods from the ownership and coaching staff. We know this was a cost cutting job they have delivered to us or ML would be QB'ing this team and Q would probably be here. We know we have a OL and DL that is not NFL caliber and has not been coached up. The decision making from this staff has been terrible.

So you can preach "In Whiz I trust" all you want but one thing else I know is we will not be seeing any Super Bowl runs or playoff appearances for the forseeable future. The talent is not on this team to make a run like that and no amount of Whiz feel good is going to change that.

 

[Duckjake]

37-29 Loss
48-20 Loss
35-14 Loss
47-7 Loss

Oh I didn't notice that was the SB run. Except for the first game vs the Giants the Cards didn't even try in those games. Warner hardly played vs NE. AND two of them came with the Cards only needing one more win to clinch the division. Finally it was the first time in Arizona history that the team was in that position and like Dockett said we'd never been there before. Those games were just like last seasons week 17 game vs Green Bay.

The proof is that when the Cards needed to step up and win to clinch they beat the Rams 34-10. Finally to get ready for the playoffs they polished off Seattle 34-21 outscoring the Seahawks 20-7 in the second half and to really drive the point home crushed the Vikings the next season.

However, there are plenty of other horrid 4 of 5 game stretches you could have used.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think people are taking my use of the word "bandwagon" out of context in my previous post.

I wan't accusing anyone here of being a bandwagon fan in terms of cheering for the team when they are good and leaving when its bad.

I mean jumping on and off the Whisenhunt "bandwagon".

 

[Arizona's Finest]

However, there are plenty of other horrid 4 of 5 game stretches you could have used.

My point is not that we have played worse before (that goes without saying), its more we have had a bad 4 game stretch before and the sun came up again. And in fact it resulted in a Super Bowl a mere 5 games later.

I am not prediciting that for this season. But we still can win the division. And even if we don't, I still have faith in Wiz and his overall plan for this team.

And this certainly isn't the toughest it has ever been to be a Cards fan.

This I know.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

sadly, that's probably not on tap this year. I see us being REALLY bad for the remainder. If we're that way next year, I'll start bitching (A LOT and you know this!), but this off-season was such a cluster-**** from retirements to crap finally nipping us in the butt with Dansby (he should never have had to been franchised twice) to hording pennies before the lockout that I'm putting a lot of the blame where I used to put it and giving Wiz a mulligan. Like I said, this happens next year, and you'll see the good old cheese and you know and loathe.

I've actually never agreed with you more. I am not happy how things have played out and there are certainly been some decisions in hindsight that were not the right moves, but Wiz is the least of our problems IMO.

And in fact I am confident he will be the one to lead us out of this mini rut.

 

[devilalum]

Sometimes coaches don't make any sense when they're taking bullets for the front office.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Quick, start the fire whiz thread Mitch. You have done it with every other coach.

If you actually knew what went in to coaching and managing a football team you might have more credibility. Right now, these long diatribes are just to see yourself in print.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

He was once my Wonderful Whiz...

I mean...this is the head coach who brought me and Cardinal fans more joy than any other previously....by far. He stands alone in that regard, for no other Cardinals' head coach in my lifetime ever won one single playoff game, let alone had the laughing-stock Cardinals contending for a Lombardi Trophy.

Whiz has won two NFC West Championships...has won 4 playoff games, all of which were stunning victories and came within 2:37 of winning the Super Bowl.

After watching yesterday's press conference...

Did Toto just do what I think he did?

Has the real Whiz suddenly been exposed from behind the curtain?

I mean...honestly...what has happened that, as I sat there watching, I felt a wave of distrust and disdain come over me, regarding the coach that I swore I would love and appreciate forever?

It always made me curious as to why Big Ben was so disdainful of Whiz...which is probably the main reason why Whiz didn't get the Steelers' job. I always chalked that up to Big Ben being an incorrible jerk.

It also confused me to no end as to why Anquan Boldin manifested similar disdain. I chalked that one up to the player's selfishness...but maybe I should have been considering other thoughts.

I chalked it up to selfishness and avarice as the reasons why Dansby and Rolle flew the coop. But...they both said they wanted to be "shown the love." I was sure that love in this case simply meant money. Yet, could Whiz have had something to do with the reasons why they didn't feel the love in Arizona?

Kurt Warner left saying he had "lost the love of the game."

How much did that have to do with losing his X's and O's buddy in Todd Haley?

How much did that have to do with having to carry the team and a thoroughly incompetent defense on his shoulders week after week?

How much did that have to do with playing for a head coach/offensive coordinator who surrounded him with inferior offensive tackles and at the same time refused to create a comfort zone for him by chipping the best DEs, or at times offering maximum protection?

Right there...if I am an NFL QB and you give me two porous tackles and my head coach/offensive coordinator refuses to help them and me out by simply chipping the DEs...let alone making sure that at times the DEs aren't given a STRAIGHT UNIMPEDED SHOTS at me...I am not sure how much love for the game I could retain.

If I am a QB and my head coach tells the media that the next opponent certainly isn't in fear of whatever QB my team throws out there---how much confidence is that going to give me playing for this coach?

If my head coach bills my signing as essentially one of desperation because no one else was out there---how does that make me feel?

Better yet, if my head coach tells me and the local and national media that it's my time---that I've "earned" the starting job---and goes as far as to say he's confident in my abilities and that I am the number one---and then he plays me token minutes in the pre-season to give the backups extended time---and then suddenly I am no longer the starter and even worse, no longer in competition for the starting job---and worse than that, he strings me out to dry for over a week as a lame duck---how does that make me feel?

If my head coach tells the whole team that the best players play...and then he tells a national reporter that I played the best of any QB in camp, but I am not playing---how does that make me feel?

If my head coach goes on to say that "it's never a good opportunity to play a rookie"---when I have been one snap away from playing this whole time and he's lauded me as the best QB in camp---how does that make me feel?

He was also talking about me when he said to the media that the Saints aren't going to fear whatever QB we put out there---how does that make me feel?

When he says to the media---ha ha ha---that "no one" will be playing QB this week---it will be all Wildcat---being flip a day after one of the most humiliating, one-sided trouncings my team has suffered---how does that make me feel?

Do I really want to play for this guy?

I ask you---you tell me---

Are you forgetting Tobin in 1998?

 

[conraddobler]

Whiz is a good coach but he hasn't had any real adversity yet, you can't temper a sword if you never get it hot.

He needs a year or two in the doldrums to finish off his coaching temper, I believe he could be a very good coach but he's had it too lucky and too easy so far here.

The best coaches often don't change until the threat of termination is staring them right in the face, until they face that, they won't change and the true competitors will shine through that and make the changes they need to make.

Our FO needs to be fired though, and Whis needs better coordinators, and I'm tired of the Whis doghouse, it'd be one thing if you could ever get out of it, very few do.

This team means more to me than Whis though, he either rights the ship and takes it back up to new heights or leaves town.

Being a jerk in the NFL to players works but it's a very fine line, and one wrong move and the team will implode on you fast.

IMO it's the only job security a coach can ever have is a rock solid FO, and the ability to out coach other coaches, and build a staff that can do the same.

That's the only value a coach in the NFL has, if you can't do that, the players will spot it and abandon you fast, faster if you're a jerk but the fates the same either way.

Nice guy dosen't work if you're an idiot, jerk dosen't work unless it wins.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Do I really want to play for this guy?

I ask you---you tell me---

Yep. In a second.


Good post, with some justifiable questions, and concerns. I will not say anyone is wrong in questioning Whiz, and company, especially when it is backed up with a good post with some reasoning behind it.



As for concerns about "feelings". Seriously, this team needs to man up. I do not agree with massaging the egos of millionaires who are payed millions to focus on one thing and one thing only.

Personally, I thought Whiz Monday press conference was open, and honest.

To the weekly Warner whine:
- Warner took big shots all his career. With the Rams, with the Giants and with the Cardinals. It was part of his, MO. To think you are going to be a QB in the NFL and not get hit, is not looking at things in reality. Kurt was old, and it was time to retire. To think Whiz drove him out, at least in my opinion, is silly. Warner is not the kind of person to run away from a Head coach.

For Todd Haley:
- Todd Haley was not the OC last year, and the team seemed to be just fine.

If anything Whiz said that irked me it was this:

"If you can convince Kurt Warner to come back, we'll consider it."

Seriously. People gotta get off Warner's jock. If the team was all about Warner then please, just start releasing vets, and blow the whole thing up.

Please have Adrian Wilson, Dockett, and the rest of the "talent" stand up and say I apologize for being an absolute fake. It was all Warner, and the rest of us suck.

If I was on this team, I would feel insulted that so many think so little of the other 52 players on this roster.