At Odds (Not Oz) With Whiz

[BigRedMO]

Great post Mitch. Now that the vail has been lifted, the focus will be on how the team reacts moving forward. This will be the Bidiwlls' greatest challenge to date. It is easy to get rid of a losing, unpopular coach, but what do you do when the coach has brought you to your highest moment, is popular, and then you realize that he has sent you down a bad path that will damage your team for years to come? If this team continues to lose, there will be consquences because a lot of this was preventable. It did not need to be this bad, and the future is anything but clear. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I hope we don't take too many lumps in the process.

Bidwill had nothing to do with creating this mess?

 

[cardpa]

Yep. In a second.


Justifiable questions, and concerns, tho. I will not say anyone is wrong in questioning Whiz, and company, especially when it is backed up with a good post with some reasoning behind it.

As for concerns about "feelings". Seriously, this team needs to man up. I do not agree with massaging the egos of millionaires who are payed millions to focus on one thing and one thing only.

Personally, I thought Whiz Monday press conference was open, and honest.

To the weekly Warner whine:
- Warner took big shots all his career. With the Rams, with the Giants and with the Cardinals. It was part of his, MO. To think you are going to be a QB in the NFL and not get hit, is not looking at things in reality. Kurt was old, and it was time to retire. To think Whiz drove him out, at least in my opinion, is silly. Warner is not the kind of person to run away from a Head coach.

For Todd Haley:
- Todd Haley was not the OC last year, and the team seemed to be just fine.

If anything Whiz said that irked me it was this:

"If you can convince Kurt Warner to come back, we'll consider it."

Seriously. People gotta get off Warner's jock. If the team was all about Warner then please, just start releasing vets, and blow the whole thing up.

Please have Adrian Wilson, Dockett, and the rest of the "talent" stand up and say I apologize for being an absolute fake. It was all Warner, and the rest of us suck.

If I was on this team, I would feel insulted that so many think so little of the other 52 players on this roster.

I don't think people are saying Warner was the be all end all for the last two years. I think what they are saying is Haley and Warner had a sizable affect on the results of the offense. Haley called the plays in 2008 and Warner changed a lot of plays at the line of scrimmage in 2009. Their imprint was all over the offense and the results they got.

Now Whiz is running the offense and it's quite apparent that it is sputtering and farting all over the place.

I do not think people are dumping on the talent on the team as much as they are dumping on the coach and his staff and the lack of results so far this season based on the talent on the team. At least that is where I stand.

All the parts are not equal to the sum. This team is so dis-functional right now and the blame lays at the feet of the coach.

An offensive scheme that does not play to the strengths of the offense. A run first Oline asked to pass protect more often than not. Two quality RBs who together do not see the ball enough. A QB who has been a proven failure is being put in a position to carry the offense. Like Leinart or not he would have been the best choice at QB despite his shortcomings, he at least gets it between the ears and Scuderson doesn't.

Defensively the scheming is horrendous. There was only one hole that needed to be filled and that was Dansby's position. Rhodes more than fills Rolle's spot and Toler is an at least a good as McFadden was. There is more depth at NT and OLB is no weaker than last year. So why is this defense so bad?

It again comes down to the DC and how he uses the talent available to him. Again not using the talent to its best potential. Putting players in position to fail rather than succeed. Not recognizing the limitations of players and expecting them to be successful.

 

[BigRedMO]

And I'm convinced it's not due to lack of talent. I believe the Bidwills have done a more than adequate job in providing for an appropriate degree of talent. More than enough to be way more competitive than we've been.
!!

Bidwill provided a QB when McNabb was there? The most important position

 

[BigRedMO]

I
The Bidwills could not handle success. They never have and never will.

Coryell 1977 then again 1999. With the Cards expect 2 or 3 years max as a real NFL team and then a mimium of 10 years of a$$ beatings.

 

[BigRedMO]

Wiz (and to a degree Haley) made Warner. If Warner doesn't come here and play for THIS coach (becase we saw how awesome he was with Denny) who coached him up and hid his rampant flaws as a QB, he is only a figment of our imagination from a decade ago and only sees Canton if he decides to buy a ticket.

Whiz and Haley made Warner into a HOF QB? Really? Well I am waiting for him to do that to Hall. He couldnt do that for Leinart or Anderson. A coach does not make a player into a Hall of Famer. The player has it or he doesnt. If a coach can do that than here I am. I want to be a Hall of Famer.

 

[Duckjake]

My point is not that we have played worse before (that goes without saying), its more we have had a bad 4 game stretch before and the sun came up again. And in fact it resulted in a Super Bowl a mere 5 games later.

I am not prediciting that for this season. But we still can win the division. And even if we don't, I still have faith in Wiz and his overall plan for this team.

And this certainly isn't the toughest it has ever been to be a Cards fan.

This I know.

Well that wasn't the original discussion. I was saying that the two losses this year were the worst in franchise history over the first 4 weeks of the season* and wondering how we got to that point from being the best team in franchise history.

* That may be a slight exaggeration as I only checked back to around 1955.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well that wasn't the original discussion. I was saying that the two losses this year were the worst in franchise history over the first 4 weeks of the season* and wondering how we got to that point from being the best team in franchise history.

* That may be a slight exaggeration as I only checked back to around 1955.

this argument's bunk though. You telling me that just because we got the crap beat out of us twice on the road means we're the worst we've ever been? Sorry Duck, but give me this drek over 2003 when we opened at the worst team in the league (the Lions) and lost 42-24 (as opposed to winning this year), then coming HOME and losing 38-0 to the Seahawks, then eeking out a W against GB only to be followed up by a 37-14 ass-kicking versus St. Louis.

2-2 with two horrific road losses > 1-3 with pathetic 42-24 to a pathetic team and 38-0 at Home game and a 37-14 road game.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Whiz and Haley made Warner into a HOF QB? Really? Well I am waiting for him to do that to Hall. He couldnt do that for Leinart or Anderson. A coach does not make a player into a Hall of Famer. The player has it or he doesnt. If a coach can do that than here I am. I want to be a Hall of Famer.

I am not saying Warner didn't have the skills and ability and had to take the coaching. I mean did you really think I meant it that literal?

My point is if he would have gone anywhere else he would have been holding a clipboard and you would have never heard from him again.

Tom Coughlin won a Superbowl. He couldn't get it out of Warner. They were tired of him in St Louis too, remember?

We got him for close to nothing. If he wouldn't have listened to Wiz and started protecting the ball and put into a scheme where he could throw 40 times a game, he would have never had the last run he did here.

If he was such a sure fire Hall of Famer and destined to be great again, would we have gotten him for 1 year, 4 million?????

Does everybody have this kind of revisionist history when it comes to Warner?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

this argument's bunk though. You telling me that just because we got the crap beat out of us twice on the road means we're the worst we've ever been? Sorry Duck, but give me this drek over 2003 when we opened at the worst team in the league (the Lions) and lost 42-24 (as opposed to winning this year), then coming HOME and losing 38-0 to the Seahawks, then eeking out a W against GB only to be followed up by a 37-14 ass-kicking versus St. Louis.

2-2 with two horrific road losses > 1-3 with pathetic 42-14 to a pathetic team and 38-0 at Home game and a 37-14 road game.

Well Cheesie we are 2 for 2 now. And in one thread too!

 

[Duckjake]

this argument's bunk though. You telling me that just because we got the crap beat out of us twice on the road means we're the worst we've ever been? Sorry Duck, but give me this drek over 2003 when we opened at the worst team in the league (the Lions) and lost 42-24 (as opposed to winning this year), then coming HOME and losing 38-0 to the Seahawks, then eeking out a W against GB only to be followed up by a 37-14 ass-kicking versus St. Louis.

2-2 with two horrific road losses > 1-3 with pathetic 42-24 to a pathetic team and 38-0 at Home game and a 37-14 road game.

To steal one of your favorite lines stop putting words in my mouth. I simply said that they were the worst two losses in the first four weeks of the season in franchise history. And that is what I meant to say when I said we went from best to worst. I cleared up that error in a later post.

No other combination of two losses in the first 4 weeks of any other season equals the point differential of 82-17. Yours get either 80-24 or 75-14.

 

[Duckjake]

Well Cheesie we are 2 for 2 now. And in one thread too!

Yeah. You're 2-2 just like the Cards are 2-2.

 

[Duckjake]

2-2 with two horrific road losses > 1-3 with pathetic 42-24 to a pathetic team and 38-0 at Home game and a 37-14 road game.

I don't know. 41-7 and 41-10 and needing a missed chip shot FG to beat a mediocre Raiders team while just getting rolled on defense with the talent on this team is even worse imo.

That 2003 team had nothing other than Boldin.

We'll see this weekend. A very important game. If the Cards get rolled again it could very well lead to 2003 redux.

 

[Matt L]

If he was such a sure fire Hall of Famer and destined to be great again, would we have gotten him for 1 year, 4 million?????

Does everybody have this kind of revisionist history when it comes to Warner?

There is absolutely no room for your logic when you believe that Warner is the Messiah.

 

[Cheesebeef]

To steal one of your favorite lines stop putting words in my mouth. I simply said that they were the worst two losses in the first four weeks of the season in franchise history. And that is what I meant to say when I said we went from best to worst. I cleared up that error in a later post.

No other combination of two losses in the first 4 weeks of any other season equals the point differential of 82-17. Yours get either 80-24 or 75-14.

you know what they say about statistics... but if you honestly think an 80-24 spread in two games with one of them coming on the road against the worst team of the last decade and one of them AT HOME is worse than 82-17 in two road games against a team that was 13-3 last year and another that is currently 3-1 this year, then, well, I was gonna say I don't know what to tell you, but really, who the hell cares.

we're bad. really bad. still not as bad as 2003 though (although probably not by much).

 

[ASUCHRIS]

We'll see this weekend. A very important game.

Love ya Duck, and usually agree with you, but you couldn't be more wrong about this. This weekend against the Saints just isn't an important game at all. There is no reason to think it won't be a blowout loss, as it should be. We're two teams on two very different tracks, and we'll be starting an undrafted rookie qb. I'm much more focused on what we do against Seattle after the bye than what happens this week. How we do against the Seattles of the world will dictate whether or not we have a chance to make the playoffs, not against the defending champs.

 

[Duckjake]

Love ya Duck, and usually agree with you, but you couldn't be more wrong about this. This weekend against the Saints just isn't an important game at all. There is no reason to think it won't be a blowout loss, as it should be. We're two teams on two very different tracks, and we'll be starting an undrafted rookie qb. I'm much more focused on what we do against Seattle after the bye than what happens this week. How we do against the Seattles of the world will dictate whether or not we have a chance to make the playoffs, not against the defending champs.

I agree but what I'm concerned about is if the Cards get blown out again they'll quit. The fans will quit. And they won't be able to beat the Seattles.

But I did overlook the bye week so they could repair the damage with the week off and so maybe its not as bad as I think.

Although with the current state of the defense I don't know if they can beat the Seattles of the world even if they don't give up.

What really surprises me is that Greg Tolar appears to be the best CB we've had in run support in a while. That boy will come up and hit some people. Yet they still keep getting killed by the run.

 

[Duckjake]

against the worst team of the last decade

At the time weren't we the worst team of the last decade? Well at least of the last 5 years.

But you are right who cares who was worse?

I just wanted to know what happened to the team that they lose on the road 41-7 and 41-10 instead of at least being competitive in the losses. Which is what my OP was actually about.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

What really surprises me is that Greg Tolar appears to be the best CB we've had in run support in a while. That boy will come up and hit some people. Yet they still keep getting killed by the run.

Yep. Despite being targeted all the time, he's been not only the best player on the D, but the most consistent. Just pathetic when you think about it, and hear all the BS about DRC being one of the best corners in the league. He's certainly one of the most talented, but just doesn't have it between the ears.

The rest of the D has completely underperformed the entire season. There really isn't one player you could say has lived up to expectations. It's amazing to look at a D like San Diego, mostly manned by a bunch of no names, absolutely dominate our offense, while our D looks like a high school team. Even worse, you can't even make injury excuses. The D right now is an absolute disaster, and I don't know how you even begin to fix it.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I think our leading tacklers are Toler and Rhodes arent they? At least it seems so on game day.

Reminds me of the olf Ronald Mckinnon days when all tackles were 8 yards and a cloud of dust.

 

[BigRedMO]

Love ya Duck, and usually agree with you, but you couldn't be more wrong about this. This weekend against the Saints just isn't an important game at all. There is no reason to think it won't be a blowout loss, as it should be. We're two teams on two very different tracks, and we'll be starting an undrafted rookie qb. I'm much more focused on what we do against Seattle after the bye than what happens this week. How we do against the Seattles of the world will dictate whether or not we have a chance to make the playoffs, not against the defending champs.

Why care about the playoffs if they have no hope of even being respectable in the game. I prefer to minimize the national humiliation.

 

[Duckjake]

I think our leading tacklers are Toler and Rhodes arent they? At least it seems so on game day.

Reminds me of the olf Ronald Mckinnon days when all tackles were 8 yards and a cloud of dust.

LOL

Toler is on pace for 132 tackles. 33 tackles in just 4 games.

I do remember the days when the Cards PR machine used to credit Wrong Gap Ronnie with 200 tackles a season.

 

[BigRedMO]

I am not saying Warner didn't have the skills and ability and had to take the coaching. I mean did you really think I meant it that literal?

My point is if he would have gone anywhere else he would have been holding a clipboard and you would have never heard from him again.

Tom Coughlin won a Superbowl. He couldn't get it out of Warner. They were tired of him in St Louis too, remember?

We got him for close to nothing. If he wouldn't have listened to Wiz and started protecting the ball and put into a scheme where he could throw 40 times a game, he would have never had the last run he did here.

If he was such a sure fire Hall of Famer and destined to be great again, would we have gotten him for 1 year, 4 million?????

Does everybody have this kind of revisionist history when it comes to Warner?

The Giants were in the playoff hunt with Warner and when they benched him they lost their season. Still Warner with the Giants wasnt the same as he had been with the Rams or would be with the Cardinals. He needed time to heal his hand. He improved his grip when he started wearing gloves. It blows my mind how many people cant objectively look at the facts and reach a conclusion. Whiz had how many years with Leinart to make him a QB and couldnt. He couldnt do that with Anderson. This franchise has went from Lomax to Warner without a serviceable QB in between. I guess none of those headcoaches could create a QB either. With Warner they won without him they return to the team that got beat by the Bears in 06 without the Bears offense scoring a TD to do it. They relied on Cardinal incompetence.

The Cardinals getting Warner cheap was typical Bidwill. Bidwill had that one in a million lucky shot that paid off. It is his pattern to get cheap retreads like Anderson. He thinks he can find QBs at the local convenience store. You really think Whiz takes them to the Super Bowl with anyone else who was available at QB? I dont know if you have noticed but this Whiz team blows.

 

[Rats]

The Giants were in the playoff hunt with Warner and when they benched him they lost their season. Still Warner with the Giants wasnt the same as he had been with the Rams or would be with the Cardinals. He needed time to heal his hand. He improved his grip when he started wearing gloves. It blows my mind how many people cant objectively look at the facts and reach a conclusion. Whiz had how many years with Leinart to make him a QB and couldnt. He couldnt do that with Anderson. This franchise has went from Lomax to Warner without a serviceable QB in between. I guess none of those headcoaches could create a QB either. With Warner they won without him they return to the team that got beat by the Bears in 06 without the Bears offense scoring a TD to do it. They relied on Cardinal incompetence.

The Cardinals getting Warner cheap was typical Bidwill. Bidwill had that one in a million lucky shot that paid off. It is his pattern to get cheap retreads like Anderson. He thinks he can find QBs at the local convenience store. You really think Whiz takes them to the Super Bowl with anyone else who was available at QB? I dont know if you have noticed but this Whiz team blows.

+1 In alot of ways Warners Passing game masked a terribly deficent team on the Definsive side of the ball. It was never fixed in 4 years and is lower third in the league, now that the Offense can't keep it off the field. Most likely a combination of cheap Bidwill( making Warner go look at the Whiners for contract before antying up) and piss poor Whiz/Graves drafts. We simply haven't replaced talent that has left. Piss poor handling of a team that got a huge lift from the new stadium. Pretty sure everyone knows this Whiz team blows.

 

[Early]

I just wanted to write some of my opinions on this.

I think that Whiz is doing a great job. He took over the franchise and made some important changes that few HC's would have done. He played Warner, while most, if not all HC's would have played the safe card together with the ownership and gone with Leinart.

This year, we are in transition. Most teams in transition are 0-4 after 4 weeks. Perhaps, late in the season, some of these teams are able to find some chemistry and win few games. But we are actually 0.5 team and since game one we are still on top of the division. That is impressive considering how many players we lost.

Speaking of players lost, we got rid of the right ones. Dansby is very overrated and so is Rolle. Problem on defense is Billy Davis and the scheme. In the end, Whiz should be blamed for this. He is not a defensively minded coach at all. Davis is just a horrible coordinator and that is very easy to see. We do not play to our strengths on defense. We don't have the scheme to match our skills. It does not matter if we had some of the best defensive players of the NFL when Davis is calling the plays and setting the scheme. It has certainly nothing to do with Dansby and Rolle either. We had the worst defense NFL has ever seen with these guys being the "heart" of the defense. So it's not that at all.

That being said, some wrong draft choices were made. Washington, a Tampa-2 player brought in 3-4 defense. He is even worse (much worse in fact) than Dansby against the run. I still have to see him coming of a block and making an impact. Teams run his way intentionally. TE's have no problem with him, yet alone offensive lineman. As fast as he may be, he is not a complete LB.

Losing Hayes hurts alot. He was the heart of defense, setting the physical aspects and absolutely destroying any attempt of running against this defense. Injury is not something Whiz could prevent. Losing Warner is due to his age and him playing his final year. It does not matter who was the HC, I don't believe that would have made the difference. He plays for love of the game and not for who is the HC or not. Unlike Favre, he is a mature man and he seems to know that in that age, there is much more in life than just football. His health and family seem to be more important and that's the way it should be.

Dan Williams is very inconsistent as well. That has nothing to do with weight. Both these players are inconsistent (Washington) and very flashy at times when they make some plays. Personally I don't like those type of players at all. Same goes with Beanie. He is a bad RB. Yes, i said it. Flashy runs from time to time but very inconsistent in his vision of the lanes that develop and just horrible in all aspects of blocking recieving and knowing the plays. When you invest a 1st round choice in a RB, one expect domination, since this is by far the easiest position in NFL besides punters, and the one with easiest transition as well. In addition, he is just as soft as he was in college, injured all the time. I can see why Whiz has problems with Beanie. He is not a complete footballplayer. Situational for sure, but not complete as Hightower is.

Who made the choice on drafting is hard to tell. It's impossible to use reductionism here and say wheter it is Whiz or Graves etc. It could be numerous people and it could be combination of several.

What the best HC's have in common: Adjusting. There has been so many problems with our team in recent years and just when everyone thinks that this team is going down, Whiz seems to adjust when it matters the most and make this team Win. Being 0.5 footballteam after that many changes and rookie UDFA QB playing, is certainly also impressive. It can only get better from now on.

Sure, there are many mistakes. Like signing Anderson. That dude has to be the most inaccurate passer in the history of the game. I am more accurate than him! I Love many other aspects of his game, and i'm sure Whiz and company has been amazed by that as well, knowing how much toughness and heart mean for a QB. he actually does have those skills. But with that bad accuracy and touch, there is no way he can be a good QB.

Hall has been nothing short of impressive. Whiz has been able to find his guy in a very hard situation. He has done something no other HC would have done. Getting rid of what everyone saw as "QBOTF" Heismann winner Leinart because he knew what he had in Max Hall. That reminds me alot about the Warner decision. I respect that. It's risky, but it shows what type of HC he is.

Hall had an amazing energy in his game against Chargers. He is going to be a good QB. This offense will be good again. We have good group of recievers and after a few games where Hall settles in, this can very well become a very explosive unit. A huge problems are the tackles, but I have confidence that this will be fixed. Perhaps we will see Levi going back to the RT. Faneca sucks in pass protection as well. The line is the concern on offense, but with a good QB and recievers, even that will not be a problem.

Defense is a huge issue. And that's where Whiz needs to be blamed. He does not seem to be able to build a dominating defense. Handing the job over to Davis just proves that. DRC is getting owned in zone coverage and that is destroying his confidence. We do not play to our strengths at all. If we played DRC man to man and played double coverage on the other side, it would lead to a very strong defensive scheme, despite not unpredictable.

There are plenty of mistakes, and I hated the press conference as well. Some of the comments were not needed. When Warner got the chance to start his first game the Rams HC said following: " We will play Kurt Warner, and we will win". I wish that Whiz came out and said the same thing about Max Hall.

He is an old school HC and he will adjust to this situation. Even without adjustment so far and everything going bad, he has found a way to win half of the games and lead the division. Once Max Halls starts to excel and we put up alot of points, this will be a different story.

But with his lack of defensive understanding, i'm afraid that he will never win the superbowl as a HC.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Well written piece as usual Mitch. Anyone that has been a FanBoy of this Headcoach is forced to re-evaluate and discover some inconvienant truths as you pointed out. It has been there all along but masked by the inheritence of NFL talented players and winning NFC titles despite not preparing for life after the "NFL talent leaves" Whis is not good at x and o, he is not good at talent evaluation, he is not good at bringing in competent Coaches on both sides of the ball. We expected we would transition to a run first team to setup the pass and it has never happened. He fell in love with his press clippings and has not replenished the talent to stay at the top on Offense. Without that our D (which has never been topshelf) is exposed. ML would have managed the game better and had an impact. He would have made the transition year easier but Whiz for some reason( temporary insanity perhaps?) changed the gameplan 2 weeks before the season and now we see the curtain has been pulled back to expose a fraud.

Enjoy your comments, but please include some paragraph breaks.