Ayton's Development at the Quarter Mark of 2018-2019 Season

[Cheesebeef]

I think we mean the same thing. Ayton, as we fans, expected that the Suns would put a (I'll use my word again -- balanced) roster around him and Book. But it didn't get better, it got worse. Sure, Ayton had high hopes when the Suns drafted him as their first and only #1 pick. Do he or we have high hopes now?

And the word "tank" has already started appearing in posts. Here we go again. I'll betcha DeAndre wouldn't want to hear that.

If Ayton's got a brain in his head, I betcha he's looking around him and thinking "******* do I need a Zion type guy next to my ass...!"

 

[1Sun]

Most are complaining about Aytons passive nature. Yet here you say it is the coach's fault for not exploiting his "obvious strengths". Which are? Compete lack of desire to establish himself in the post? Lack of lower body strength to keep solid post position if he were to get there? As I said in the game thread, Igor may be the wrong guy. But the scheme is not to blame. Ayton has so many individual opportunities that he does not take or capitalize on that I find it disingenuous to place the blame first on someone else. Perhaps a more experienced coach wouldn't be playing him much at all...

OR a more experienced coach would be working with him to teach him how to take advantage of his physical gifts and would be designing sets that help develop that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Most are complaining about Aytons passive nature. Yet here you say it is the coach's fault for not exploiting his "obvious strengths". Which are? Compete lack of desire to establish himself in the post? Lack of lower body strength to keep solid post position if he were to get there? As I said in the game thread, Igor may be the wrong guy. But the scheme is not to blame. Ayton has so many individual opportunities that he does not take or capitalize on that I find it disingenuous to place the blame first on someone else. Perhaps a more experienced coach wouldn't be playing him much at all...

It's a combo of both, IMO.

And we must be watching different games if you think Ayton's had so many individual opportunities on the block. I've watched probably ten total games so far and i can literally count on both hands the amount of times I've seen them throw to him in the post or even TRY.

 

[1tinsoldier]

Just for clarification, I meant the trading block. But at the time I also thought the four-letter-word being implied was "bust" and not "soft."

the 4 letter word no one wants to speak, that i manually substituted four asterisks for, is the word "soft"
i would say, Ayton is ****
rather than AYton is a ****

"soft" is starting to be spoken here
i'm confident the word "bust" will never apply

 

[1Sun]

the 4 letter word no one wants to speak, that i manually substituted four asterisks for, is the word "soft"

i would say, Ayton is ****
rather than AYton is a ****

"soft" is starting to be spoken here
i'm confident the word "bust" will never apply

Oh, it will apply...to Igor Kokoskov as an NBA head coach, not to Deandre Ayton as an NBA center..

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

It's a combo of both, IMO.

And we must be watching different games if you think Ayton's had so many individual opportunities on the block. I've watched probably ten total games so far and i can literally count on both hands the amount of times I've seen them throw to him in the post or even TRY.

I meant opportunities for getting rebounds, scoring on put-backs, sealing off his man and making himself a target. If you think that he hasn't been taught this then I don't know what to tell you. Our guards are not good enough to "pass him open". I think that the design to have him move IS indeed using his strength. He is more agile than most centers. He can set solid screens and roll for easy opportunities. The combo of his youth and our guards makes that a little challenging, but (IMO) less so than parking on the block, sealing his man, demanding the pass (hand up, "hit me here"), and scoring over/around the opposition. He doesn't box out at all on the defensive end, and yet we think he can do it on the offensive end?

 

[Chaplin]

I meant opportunities for getting rebounds, scoring on put-backs, sealing off his man and making himself a target. If you think that he hasn't been taught this then I don't know what to tell you. Our guards are not good enough to "pass him open". I think that the design to have him move IS indeed using his strength. He is more agile than most centers. He can set solid screens and roll for easy opportunities. The combo of his youth and our guards makes that a little challenging, but (IMO) less so than parking on the block, sealing his man, demanding the pass (hand up, "hit me here"), and scoring over/around the opposition. He doesn't box out at all on the defensive end, and yet we think he can do it on the offensive end?

Yet he’s still averaging a double double. How do you explain that?

 

[Hoop Head]

Yet he’s still averaging a double double. How do you explain that?

Somebody's going to get the rebounds and Ayton takes up a lot of space so he's not challenged that much for a lot of them. Amare averaged close to a double double here also but he was never a good defensive rebounder.

 

[SirStefan32]

While I agree that Ayton does a poor job boxing out, I want to point out that Amare did not average close to a double-double. He averaged "almost 10 rebounds" once, and got over 9 rebounds two more times for a season. Ayton is a much better rebounder now than Amare ever was, even in his prime.

Ayton is grabbing 10.2 rebounds in 31.7 minutes per game. Amare's best was 9.6 rebounds in 32.8 minutes. That was the only season in which Amare was remotely close to Ayton when it comes to rebounding.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I meant opportunities for getting rebounds, scoring on put-backs, sealing off his man and making himself a target. If you think that he hasn't been taught this then I don't know what to tell you. Our guards are not good enough to "pass him open". I think that the design to have him move IS indeed using his strength. He is more agile than most centers. He can set solid screens and roll for easy opportunities. The combo of his youth and our guards makes that a little challenging, but (IMO) less so than parking on the block, sealing his man, demanding the pass (hand up, "hit me here"), and scoring over/around the opposition. He doesn't box out at all on the defensive end, and yet we think he can do it on the offensive end?

Soooo . . . your solution is to give up? I don’t understand your post. He’s not good at these things. We agree on that. He’s young, I suspect we agree on that. This is already a lost season, I would hope we agree on that. So what better time to make him get into the post and acquire those big man skills? There’s little practice time in an NBA season so let’s get him practicing those skills against bona fide NBA centers. We aren’t contending for a playoff spot so why are you afraid of turnovers? NOW is the time to teach him and turn is weaknesses into strengths.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Somebody's going to get the rebounds and Ayton takes up a lot of space so he's not challenged that much for a lot of them. Amare averaged close to a double double here also but he was never a good defensive rebounder.

And he had to compete with Marion who was a double digit rebounder.

 

[Hoop Head]

While I agree that Ayton does a poor job boxing out, I want to point out that Amare did not average close to a double-double. He averaged "almost 10 rebounds" once, and got over 9 rebounds two more times for a season. Ayton is a much better rebounder now than Amare ever was, even in his prime.

Amare averaged 19.9 ppg with 8.9 rebounds pre-Nash. That's close to a double double. I know Ayton is a better rebounder than Amare ever was but Ayton isn't playing with a good rebounder like Marion either. I'm not sure how to look up what Amare averaged without Marion playing with him but I would imagine he averaged more without Marion. By the time Marion was traded though we brought in Shaq, who not only kept rebounds from Amare but also moved Amare back to PF. That took away more opportunities for boards but in a different way than Marion did.

As a rookie Amare grabbed 25 double doubles in 71 starts, and played in all 82 games. Right now Ayton has 13 double doubles in 23 games, all starts. So Ayton is racking them up quicker but it's comparable, IMO. Of the 10 double double's he missed out on, he didn't accumulate the rebounds in all 10 and in 3 he didn't get the points or rebounds. Amare had 4 games with 15-19 rebounds during his rookie year, so far Ayton has 1. It wouldn't surprise me if they ended up even doing that.

Amare was here for 7 seasons, not counting the year he played in 3 games, in 3 of those seasons he averaged over 9 rebounds a game. In the other 4 he averaged 8.8, 8.9, 8.1, and 8.9. He averaged 8.9 in the 516 games as a Sun. I don't see how that is "not close to a double double".

 

[Hoop Head]

And he had to compete with Marion who was a double digit rebounder.

I didn't mention that initially because I didn't think anyone would challenge anything I said in that post. I was surprised that Stef said Amare didn't average close to a double double as a Sun though. I know he didn't actually accomplish that feat but he did get a lot of double doubles as a Sun and came close to averaging one. He wasn't a good rebounder and was worse than our 6'7" pogo stick of a Small Forward at rebounding but Marion was also one of the best rebounding SF's in the NBA during his career. Should Amare have rebounded better? Yes, definitely, but so could Ayton. That's all I'm saying. Double doubles don't say someone is a good rebounder. I don't think anyone here would say Westbrook is a great rebounder in general. He's a good rebounder for a guard but averaging 10 boards a game isn't that much of accomplishment for a guy who is 7'1 like Ayton. It's to be expected, IMO. Especially since he doesn't have another good rebounder on his team to compete for rebounds with.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Soooo . . . your solution is to give up? I don’t understand your post. He’s not good at these things. We agree on that. He’s young, I suspect we agree on that. This is already a lost season, I would hope we agree on that. So what better time to make him get into the post and acquire those big man skills? There’s little practice time in an NBA season so let’s get him practicing those skills against bona fide NBA centers. We aren’t contending for a playoff spot so why are you afraid of turnovers? NOW is the time to teach him and turn is weaknesses into strengths.

Not at all - and you changed the context of the discussion. To paraphrase, Cheese said we need the coach to focus on his strengths. I said I think he is focusing on his strengths right out of the gate. Things he can do now while he grows into the true post position. Can/Should he do more and learn more and grow more? Of course. I don't think that that was ever in question.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Yet he’s still averaging a double double. How do you explain that?

It's great! He is big and agile. We all remember saying that Len should get 10 rebounds by default because he was the biggest guy on the court. Well, our current big guy gets 10 without even trying that much. I will assume that you have watched the games. From my vantage point on my couch, he could average 10 more points per game with some tenacity. And 4 more rebounds per game just by trying on the defensive end. I do notice that he gets tired quite quickly, so perhaps that has something to do with it.
I am not complaining about Ayton, at all. All I am saying is that a change to the scheme will most likely not change much and may make it worse. But I have never coached basketball so my observations are just simply that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not at all - and you changed the context of the discussion. To paraphrase, Cheese said we need the coach to focus on his strengths. I said I think he is focusing on his strengths right out of the gate. Things he can do now while he grows into the true post position. Can/Should he do more and learn more and grow more? Of course. I don't think that that was ever in question.

Huh, I guess I misunderstood your response because during the conversation you said something to the effect of “and get more turnovers” like you didn’t want them to work in those things if they resulted in turnovers. Fair enough.

 

[Chaplin]

It's great! He is big and agile. We all remember saying that Len should get 10 rebounds by default because he was the biggest guy on the court. Well, our current big guy gets 10 without even trying that much. I will assume that you have watched the games. From my vantage point on my couch, he could average 10 more points per game and 4 more rebounds per game just by trying on the defensive end. I do notice that he gets tired quite quickly, so perhaps that has something to do with it.
I am not complaining about Ayton, at all. All I am saying is that a change to the scheme will most likely not change much and may make it worse. But I have never coached basketball so my observations are just simply that.

The only reason I might disagree with you -- and probably half-heartedly at that -- is that when Ayton is stuck at the top of the key throwing picks every. Single. Play.... he cannot get into reliable position to get rebounds on offense. And on defense, he's usually pulled out far enough that he can't establish position quick enough. Which is weird because he's big AND athletic.

Part of it is lack of effort, but a lot of it is the way he is being coached. An opposing team does a lot of cutting and moving of the ball when he's on the court because they know he isn't going to react as fast as he possibly could. Whether that's effort or coaching, I don't know. But as I've said before, virtually ALL of Ayton's failings are teachable and able to be overcome. It's just a matter of when that will happen and who is going to help him do it.

 

[Raindog]

I agree that Ayton, while really having an impressive rookie season so far (the naysayers aside), has the potential to be doing so much more. Whether the fact that he isn't is a matter of his "greenness" or a lack of drive on his part is something we can only know for certain as time passes. Certainly it is far too early to determine that with certainty... and people calling him a "bust" at this point are either ignorant or foolish.

Not saying that is anyone here, in particular. But go to Real GM (which is admittedly a bastion of the callow and simpleminded) and a few other Suns forums to see the stupidity in action.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's great! He is big and agile. We all remember saying that Len should get 10 rebounds by default because he was the biggest guy on the court. Well, our current big guy gets 10 without even trying that much. I will assume that you have watched the games. From my vantage point on my couch, he could average 10 more points per game with some tenacity. And 4 more rebounds per game just by trying on the defensive end. I do notice that he gets tired quite quickly, so perhaps that has something to do with it.
I am not complaining about Ayton, at all. All I am saying is that a change to the scheme will most likely not change much and may make it worse. But I have never coached basketball so my observations are just simply that.

Hmm, I agree with most of your assessments but I disagree about scheme. He may consider himself a “finesse” player but his pure size and athleticism should net him more success closer to the rim if he’s put down there and forced to develop the usage of those two traits. Keeping him at the top of the key allows him to float too much. I think it provides him an “out,” of you will, from mixing it up inside. I think he should be “allowed” the high post/top of the key as a “treat” when he’s sufficiently punished the opposition inside.

 

[Raindog]

The only reason I might disagree with you -- and probably half-heartedly at that -- is that when Ayton is stuck at the top of the key throwing picks every. Single. Play.... he cannot get into reliable position to get rebounds on offense. And on defense, he's usually pulled out far enough that he can't establish position quick enough. Which is weird because he's big AND athletic.

Part of it is lack of effort, but a lot of it is the way he is being coached. An opposing team does a lot of cutting and moving of the ball when he's on the court because they know he isn't going to react as fast as he possibly could. Whether that's effort or coaching, I don't know. But as I've said before, virtually ALL of Ayton's failings are teachable and able to be overcome. It's just a matter of when that will happen and who is going to help him do it.

+++1

Spot on... Igor is running an offensive scheme that clearly utilizes the 5 as a high post non-option on offense. I get that that is a standard approach in the contemporary NBA, with the perimeter-oriented trend of recent years... and all well and good when your 5 is someone like Robin Lopez, for example. But it's completely insipid when you have a player with Ayton's abilities. I would allow that POSSIBLY Igor is open to amending his approach, but it sure seems like he is slow to get it at this point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree that Ayton, while really having an impressive rookie season so far (the naysayers aside), has the potential to be doing so much more. Whether the fact that he isn't is a matter of his "greenness" or a lack of drive on his part is something we can only know for certain as time passes. Certainly it is far too early to determine that with certainty... and people calling him a "bust" at this point are either ignorant or foolish.

Not saying that is anyone here, in particular. But go to Real GM (which is admittedly a bastion of the callow and simpleminded) and a few other Suns forums to see the stupidity in action.

As one of ayton’s harshest critics and biggest fans (yes it’s possible to be both simultaneously) I find it incredible that anyone could consider him a bust.

 

[Western Font]

The only reason I might disagree with you -- and probably half-heartedly at that -- is that when Ayton is stuck at the top of the key throwing picks every. Single. Play.... he cannot get into reliable position to get rebounds on offense. And on defense, he's usually pulled out far enough that he can't establish position quick enough. Which is weird because he's big AND athletic.

I'm always noticing this as well. Probably because I'm most interested in Ayton right now, and having grown up with traditional centers I naturally look for him in the paint first--before spotting him out at the key. It constantly makes me pine for a PF to execute picks, giving the PG a clean shot with Ayton in great position to tap in or rebound, or rolling to the rim while Ayton is doubled in the paint.

Hopefully we get improvement in Ayton's game plus some better pieces on the roster, but I'm stating the obvious.

 

[Chaplin]

+++1

Spot on... Igor is running an offensive scheme that clearly utilizes the 5 as a high post non-option on offense. I get that that is a standard approach in the contemporary NBA, with the perimeter-oriented trend of recent years... and all well and good when your 5 is someone like Robin Lopez, for example. But it's completely insipid when you have a player with Ayton's abilities. I would allow that POSSIBLY Igor is open to amending his approach, but it sure seems like he is slow to get it at this point.

Here's the way I look at it, even if it is a little simplistic.

The success of Igor's offense has always been dependent on the play of the point guard and the big men have always been secondary, or even third on the pecking order. Igor has the exact opposite kind of roster he's used to, whether that's for his asst coaching days or his national team days. I would almost guarantee we would see IMMEDIATE dividends if we acquired a point guard with some inherent NBA skill. You can see it coming out of Point Book. Problem there is that he's a natural SG and will never be totally comfortable in that spot.

I'm not saying we'd be an automatic playoff team with an established point guard, but I think we would see a big difference with the product on the court, pretty much with EVERY player.

The offense itself is dependent on something we don't have. Now the problem is adjustments. Igor is learning, as evidenced by his starting lineup changes and the release of Canaan/trade of Chandler. However, he needs to go another step further and change the fundamentals of his offense to fit his personnel. I think it's painfully obvious that he doesn't know how to do that yet. In today's NBA, you can't adapt the personnel to the offense, you have to adapt the offense to the personnel. It's no secret most NBA players from bottom to top are usually pretty one-dimensional.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

As one of ayton’s harshest critics and biggest fans (yes it’s possible to be both simultaneously) I find it incredible that anyone could consider him a bust.

Some folks wanted the ready-to-contribute-right-away Doncic, see the surprise success of the Mavs, and posit that Ayton was the wrong choice. I disagree with them. But it is always easier to be negative - that's what the forums are for.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Some folks wanted the ready-to-contribute-right-away Doncic, see the surprise success of the Mavs, and posit that Ayton was the wrong choice. I disagree with them. But it is always easier to be negative - that's what the forums are for.

Really? I haven't seen hardly anyone here pining for Doncic over Ayton and saying it was the wrong choice.

in fact, I think it's kind of the opposite. What I see more than anything are the people who were Ayton's biggest supporters banging on both him for being passive and Koko for marooning him outside the offense.