Backcourt 2005

[Gee!]

Kobe and Tracy wanna be teammates. The Suns will have enuff money to pull it off. My question is, with the Suns so high on Vujonilac, does this really hold merit? It could happen. The Suns will have enuff money after next season. Where would JJ go?

Tracy at PG
Kobe at SG
Zarko at SF
Amare at PF
Lampe at C


Sounds good to me

Oh ya Marion gets traded, he has to, for this to happen

 

[Joe Mama]

Here's halide break down the chances of the Phoenix Suns Landing Kobe Bryant this summer. It's not based on any inside information or anything... just the way I figure things.

20% Kobe Bryant plays for the Phoenix Suns next season.

20% Kobe Bryant stays with the LA Lakers (trial finished)

20% Kobe Bryant stays with the LA Lakers (trial not finished... doesn't opt out)

35% Kobe Bryant signs elsewhere

5% Kobe Bryant is convicted and trying to make friendly with a whole new group of large men.

Joe Mama

 

[scotsman13]

joe the trial isnt even going to start until after the season is over. right now the only thing going on is all of the pre trial junk.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Here's halide break down the chances of the Phoenix Suns Landing Kobe Bryant this summer. It's not based on any inside information or anything... just the way I figure things.

20% Kobe Bryant plays for the Phoenix Suns next season.

20% Kobe Bryant stays with the LA Lakers (trial finished)

20% Kobe Bryant stays with the LA Lakers (trial not finished... doesn't opt out)

35% Kobe Bryant signs elsewhere

5% Kobe Bryant is convicted and trying to make friendly with a whole new group of large men.

Joe Mama

20% sounds awfully optimistic. In order for the Suns to sign Kobe the following has to happen:

1. The Suns move either White or Eisley.

2. The trial in Colorado is over and Kobe is acquitted.

3. The verdict is accepted as "innocent" rather than "not proved".

4. Kobe decides he absolutely cannot play with Shaq for one more year.

5. Kobe decides to play for less money than he can get in Denver and Utah.

6. Kobe decides against playing for the Clippers.

7. Kobe does not force a sign and trade deal that would send him to a team that is not under the cap.

8. Kobe thinks he can get to the finals with the other personnel currently on the Suns.


Since all of these events have to happen for the Suns to get Kobe, I think 20% is wildly optimistic.

 

[slinslin]

The best thing about TMac and Kobe would be to tell every other fans "We told you so". because everyone is saying that would never happen, why wouldn't they go to Atlanta etc... lol

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
The best thing about TMac and Kobe would be to tell every other fans "We told you so". because everyone is saying that would never happen, why wouldn't they go to Atlanta etc... lol

That would certain give new meaning to the term "two man game".

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
20% sounds awfully optimistic. In order for the Suns to sign Kobe the following has to happen:

1. The Suns move either White or Eisley.

2. The trial in Colorado is over and Kobe is acquitted.

3. The verdict is accepted as "innocent" rather than "not proved".

4. Kobe decides he absolutely cannot play with Shaq for one more year.

5. Kobe decides to play for less money than he can get in Denver and Utah.

6. Kobe decides against playing for the Clippers.

7. Kobe does not force a sign and trade deal that would send him to a team that is not under the cap.

8. Kobe thinks he can get to the finals with the other personnel currently on the Suns.


Since all of these events have to happen for the Suns to get Kobe, I think 20% is wildly optimistic.

I don't like this list. Why? Becaus it is based on not only Kobe's "opinions", but your own.

"Innocent" rather than "not proved"? Are you kidding me? I know the C's like squeaky clean players, but come on. Your last 5 are pretty much the same thing. Yes a lot has to happen, there's no question there, but you make it sound like you have a better chance of hitting the lottery. (Which is no surprise, since you don't want Kobe in the first place, and that was murder, not rape)

1) Definitely the biggest obstacle IMO.

2) Trial might not even happen the way things are going. But I agree that the trial does matter a lot here.

3) Nitpicking there. I know everyone thinks of OJ, but if there is "not enough evidence" of rape, why does that mean he's probably guilty? If there's not enough evidence, doesn't that mean that the chances that he is actually innocent improve? OJ is different. We all thought there was enough evidence, but were left flabbergasted that the Jury did not.

4) Playing or not playing Shaq will probably be a deciding factor, but certainly not a major one. He just wants his own team--with Shaq, he will never be the man. (Its debatable whether he'd be one with McGrady, but that's another thread)

5) This is probably the most important one. Phoenix has really one thing against them--the money issue. Everything else is better than Utah and Denver. Denver's personnel MIGHT have a slight edge on us if they keep Camby, but otherwise, we have a better bunch of players. Organization, city, weather--we're generally considered one of the best in the league.

6) This is tied into the rest of these "Kobe decides" statements. Of course he'd have to decide not to play for the Clippers, but he'd have to decide not to play with the Hawks, the Celtics, the Magic, etc., etc... The Clippers should be the least of your worries. There has hardly been a whisper about Kobe to the Clippers.

7) Kobe won't force a sign-and-trade simply because the Lakers won't do it no matter what. I just won't happen.

8 ) See #5.

 

[slinslin]

Kobe doesn't have to decide against playing for the Clippers, he only has to decide to play for Phoenix.

Denver, Atlanta or Utah can't offer him more than Phoenix unless Phoenix can't even offer the max.

If Kobe leaves, I am sure Phoenix is #1 on his list.

Atlanta? LOL
Clippers? No way, reputation and history is way too bad.
Denver? Colordado? LOL
Utah? haha

 

[Chaplin]

His top 2 choices have got to be:

1) Lakers
2) Suns

Then,

3) Clippers
4) Nuggets

It just makes sense that way.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Originally posted by slinslin

Denver? Colordado? LOL

Good point

 

[devilalum]

Does anybody know if there's anything in the CBA that would prevent a team from writing a clause into a contract.

If you are found guilty of a felony this contract becomes null and void. And would this effect the cap in any way?

This would enable the Suns to take a much smaller risk by signing Kobe to a contract even if the trial isn't finished.

I still dought C's would do this but I guess Jerry could say he believe's Kobe is innocent?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by devilalum
Does anybody know if there's anything in the CBA that would prevent a team from writing a clause into a contract.

If you are found guilty of a felony this contract becomes null and void. And would this effect the cap in any way?

This would enable the Suns to take a much smaller risk by signing Kobe to a contract even if the trial isn't finished.

I still dought C's would do this but I guess Jerry could say he believe's Kobe is innocent?

You would think so, but right now Kobe gets $14.6 million next year with no risk and he is still a free agent in 2005.

We've gone over this path before (endlessly). The Lakers can offer Kobe almost $50 million more over 6 years than any other team. The Suns are unlikely to be able to offer more than about $13 million even if they can move White. This means that the only way the Suns can replace White is with the draft pick and/or a veteran minimum player.

Could it happen? Sure. If you can get Ratliff and SAR for expiring contracts, anything is possible. Is is likely?

Why am I so skeptical of the deal? I don't think that $13 million will be enough. The Suns would have to give away their first round pick and not sign Vujanic to get the extra money; and they would still not have a backup center let alone a competant one.

Maybe it would all work out. I've seen some player moves I doubted that worked out great and I've seen player moves that looked great on paper and were disasters (remember when Anthony Mason signed with the Bucks?). No, I am not comparing Mason to Kobe - just that what looks great on paper doesn't always work.

BTW, unlike some people on this board, I am not THAT concerned about the impact of Kobe on the team chemistry. If Kobe were available for $7-$8 million a year, I'd take him in a heartbeat. I am just concerned that the total price in terms of money, picks, and cap space is going to be terribly high. There is no room for error.

 

[Chaplin]

Are we absolutely, positively sure that Kobe would demand a maximum deal? I'm sure his agent will push for that, but if he looks at his options, would he take a less-than-max deal? AND, the Lakers have had an extension on the table for Kobe for a few months now--is that extension a max extension?

We're assuming to keep Kobe the Lakers will offer him a max contract. I'm not certain that even that is true.

 

[se7en]

Vujanic can be signed after Kobe. True the Suns will be out of cap space. However the mid level exception will be available at that point.

 

[elindholm]

The Lakers can offer Kobe almost $50 million more over 6 years than any other team.

Isn't it that the Lakers can offer seven years and other teams only six? An average of $8 million more per season cannot be right.

Anyway, to put the number that way is misleading. You should put it in the form, "The Lakers can offer x% more over six years than any other team can." Then it sounds like a much smaller gap, which it is.

Kobe Bryant is not immune to state income taxes (very, very high in California), nor to differing property values, nor to any other cost-of-living issues. A difference of something like 10% per year (which is about right, I think) is not going to be the deciding factor for him, especially when the extra 10% comes in a city and state where everything costs more.

I still think it's unlikely that he'll leave the Lakers, but money will not be the reason. Other teams will offer him a financial package that is essentially equivalent to what he'd get from the Lakers over the same period.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Are we absolutely, positively sure that Kobe would demand a maximum deal?

Yes. Anything less would be insulting.

(And of course the Lakers' offer is a supermax contract.)


I still think that the Clippers are a clear #2 in the Kobe sweepstakes--not having to move would be a major, major factor for me if I was Kobe. Frankly, I'm starting to think that San Antonio will be the third team considered, since it looks like the Wolves and Kings have a good shot to win it all this year.


Anybody who thinks that the Suns are that much more talented than the Clips (or that the management is that much better, in light of this last trade) is blinded by home-team loyalty IMO.

 

[slinslin]

The Lakers could offer 140M$ for 7 years if they even offer the max.
Other teams could offer 6yrs 100M$.

So the difference isn't that big. If Kobe leaves LA it won't be because of money anyway.

I am not sure but since he would be FA a year earlier that could be an advantage for Kobe even.

That news about the MLE is good.

So the Suns would sign Kobe to the max, Dampier with the rest that they have available and then split the MLE between Vujanic and McDyess.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
That news about the MLE is good.

So the Suns would sign Kobe to the max, Dampier with the rest that they have available and then split the MLE between Vujanic and McDyess.

That is not how I understand how the mid cap works. My understanding is that a team gets to use their cap space or the mid cap, whichever is higher, but not both.

Does anyone have details on this either way?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
Yes. Anything less would be insulting.

(And of course the Lakers' offer is a supermax contract.)


I still think that the Clippers are a clear #2 in the Kobe sweepstakes--not having to move would be a major, major factor for me if I was Kobe. Frankly, I'm starting to think that San Antonio will be the third team considered, since it looks like the Wolves and Kings have a good shot to win it all this year.


Anybody who thinks that the Suns are that much more talented than the Clips (or that the management is that much better, in light of this last trade) is blinded by home-team loyalty IMO.

Insulting... Come on now, who are you, his agent?

#1, if the extension/contract that the Lakers have on the table is a supermax, why hasn't he signed it? Oh, he want's to "find out his worth on the market". Well, duh. Any idiot can tell what his value is on the market. He can get a max contract from another team--which won't be as much as what the Lakers offer. If money is the issue, then why not just sign the Laker extension (if it is a max extension)?

Why does he need to gauge interest, if it's already known that he'll get a max contract from another team? The only reason is because the offer the Lakers made to him is NOT the supermax contract they are able to offer. Don't you think that makes sense?

Oh, and let's clear this up--You are NOT Kobe. If I was Kobe I don't care how much I make, I'd sign for a million bucks a year--it's more than I make now.

The real question is how much does money affect his decision to sign wherever he goes. If money matters, then you would ASSUME that he'd stay with the Lakers--UNLESS they aren't offering him the maximum extension. (Disregarding the fact that he an opt-out right and one year remaining on his contract)

The Clippers are still the Clippers. They still have some contracts they need to renew this summer, not just Kobe. IF they sign Kobe and ignore those other contracts, then the Clippers without Kobe will be much worse than the Suns without Kobe. Today, right now, you might be right, the Clippers might have a little bit better talent than the Suns. But their margin for improvement is also a lot smaller than ours.

 

[George O'Brien]

I never really understood what Kidd was doing when he talked to the Spurs. About all I can figure is that he enjoyed the attention and wineing and dining -- plus he could make the Nets feel like he was doing them a favor.

What does Kobe get from testing the market? A massive ego trip and he still gets to sign for the amount he would have received anyway.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Insulting... Come on now, who are you, his agent?

#1, if the extension/contract that the Lakers have on the table is a supermax, why hasn't he signed it? ...Why does he need to gauge interest, if it's already known that he'll get a max contract from another team?

Because money (and winning) clearly isn't as important to him as respect at this point. That doesn't mean that it's not important for him to get the largest contract his prospective team can offer, obviously.


Kobe's going to go into this summer asking the Lakers to make changes--maybe even getting rid of Phil Jackson and/or Shaq--and going around to the other franchises, seeing what perks they are willing to offer him in addition to max money. That's why he's opting out of his contract, not because of the $$$.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
Because money (and winning) clearly isn't as important to him as respect at this point. That doesn't mean that it's not important for him to get the largest contract his prospective team can offer, obviously.

Please. That street cred crap may work for Allen Iverson, but Kobe Bryant? He's got a RAPE trial and there will still be several teams wanting to sign him to max contracts (whether the Suns are one is still up for debate).

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Please. That street cred crap may work for Allen Iverson, but Kobe Bryant? He's got a RAPE trial and there will still be several teams wanting to sign him to max contracts (whether the Suns are one is still up for debate).

Not 'street cred' respect, GOAT respect--the kind of respect he's never going to get while Shaq is his teammate. (I don't think he'll ever get it in any case, but definitely not while Shaq is around.)

 

[elindholm]

My understanding is that a team gets to use their cap space or the mid cap, whichever is higher, but not both.

They can't use both simultaneously, if that's what you mean. But any team over the cap can use the MLE, regardless of how much space under the cap they might have had recently.

So basically, a team has to use up their cap space while under the cap, then figure out a way to inch over the magic number, and then they have access to the MLE.

I don't know what all of the options are for that middle step, but I think that signing first-round draft picks is one of them. Once a player is drafted, the median number of his designated salary range is added to the team's salary "structure," to use your terminology. But in fact the team has some discretion with respect to exactly what the salary is -- they're permitted to offer an amount in a range of something like 80% - 120% of the base figure, although those numbers may not be exactly right. (And it is basically automatic to just decide on the maximum figure, 120% or whatever it is.)

So...

A team makes its first-round draft choice, spontaneously adding some number to their cap figure. Then they use all of their space to sign a free agent, ending up exactly at the cap line. Then they actually sign their draft pick, but now for 120% of his "designated" salary. Now they're over the cap, so they can use the MLE.

I'm sure there are other ways to make it work, but that's one. The bottom line is that a team can use both under-the-cap space and the MLE in the same summer.

 

[elindholm]

#1, if the extension/contract that the Lakers have on the table is a supermax, why hasn't he signed it?

I believe it's true that he can get a longer contract from the Lakers if he opts out than if he signs an extension immediately.

He may also be waiting to see how the Lakers do in the playoffs this year, what Payton and Malone are going to do, whether the O'Neal extension is settled, or whether Jackson can be bothered to stick around. If I were Bryant, I could think of a lot of reasons to wait until this summer before signing my life away to the Lakers, even if I was fairly sure that was what I wanted to do.