Boris

Treesquid PhD

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oh come on now. You make it sound like I'm asking that Boris be the primary focus of the offense. I didn't say that at all. I said he has a defensive mismatch that the Phoenix Suns coaching staff should recognize, and they should take advantage of it more often than they do. I mean honestly, even if they just gave the ball to Diaw in the post (high or low) a few times per game when Amare Stoudemire was out of the game I would be happy. Even if they just gave the ball to him a few times per game when he has the mismatch in the low post I would be happy. Diaw as great moves down low, and those mismatches are not just there against the older San Antonio Spurs.

You guys who would love to trade Diaw should be advocating this. It would make him much, much more tradable. The fact is that the offense the way it's been run the last two years since Amare Stoudemire return has wasted Diaw's skills. Please realize I'm not saying Boris Diaw is blameless here. clearly he's been lazy. As I said before, he needs to stop being such a sissy when the contact is coming. I'm all for him passing out of double teams and situations where he is being well guarded. He needs to play like he did in those two games last week. The coaches need to tell him he's going to get that chance on a regular basis.



I love how being critical of Amare Stoudemire equates to hating him. I think he is an amazing offensive player. Never would I deny that. I would love for him to play defense like Wallace (the Wallace of a few years ago). However my problem with Amare Stoudemire has nothing to do with such lofty expectations, and it's ridiculous of you to imply it is. I would be completely satisfied if he was just an average defender and rebounder. Tease about his bad defensively as Steve Nash, but unlike Steve Nash it doesn't have to do with his physical limitations. He is lazy and stupid (perhaps ignorant is a better word) about the way he defends and rebounds. The guy talks a huge game, and everybody eats it up, but it doesn't translate onto the court.

Joe

I am beginning to think the issue here is some fans don't like Amare's talk, if he was a verbal mute like Barbosa everything would be less of an issue. For me talking is not a big deal and I believe in the fans eyes there is a fine line between talking too much and being the "heart and soul" of the team.

I look at Football where Anquan Boldin is essentially a great individual player but team wise has been a loser his whole NFL career and talks constantly, but because he does a few things fans hold as "with amazing heart" he gets the right to spew as much as he wants.

I get that Amare is terrible at defense (I happen to think coaching is at least partially responsible for this) but his talking isn't the thing that concerns me at all with him. My biggest issue is that he is a mental midget in crunch time and has shown to be over a long period of time.

As for Diaw, thanks for the clarification, I still think he is never going to care about his own game as much as the few Suns fans on this forum do. Amare may talk too much, but if you were going to ask me who would at least put in the time to improve their deficiencies I would have to go with Amare 100% of the time.

I would be completely satisfied if he was just an average defender and rebounder.
He isn't an average rebounder? Again I think there is some strange expectations/definitions with Amare, pls. define average?
 
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Chaplin

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Dirk Nowitzki isn't getting traded, and he certainly doesn't play defense any better than Amare Stoudemire.
 

Treesquid PhD

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Dirk Nowitzki isn't getting traded, and he certainly doesn't play defense any better than Amare Stoudemire.

I think what we have is out of wack expectations for Amare. Terms like one trick pony, lazy, stupid are really quite silly for a guy who is averaging 25 and 9. He isn't hall of fame great or anything but he isn't Brandon Bass either.
 

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Dirk Nowitzki isn't getting traded, and he certainly doesn't play defense any better than Amare Stoudemire.

But Nowitzki will be a monster on the boards when his offensive game is lacking. If Amare isn't killing the opposition offensively, he doesn't seem to pick up the other parts of his game. I think that is the point some posters are making about STAT.
 

Treesquid PhD

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Dirk Nowitzki isn't getting traded, and he certainly doesn't play defense any better than Amare Stoudemire.

But Nowitzki will be a monster on the boards when his offensive game is lacking. If Amare isn't killing the opposition offensively, he doesn't seem to pick up the other parts of his game. I think that is the point some posters are making about STAT.

It's a fair point, but that is consistent across the team, even with Raja now a days, no Suns player has improved defensively in the past 4 years, not one.
 

Errntknght

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Joe,
The Phoenix Suns could use Boris almost every night like they did in the last couple games of this year's playoffs. He has the size and skills to abuse just about any 3 and a lot of the 4's in the post. If they double team him, his passing skills are good enough to pick the defense apart. I've been saying this for the last two years. Hell, the majority of the guys who could guard him effectively in the post would not be able to guard him off the dribble if he would just get over his fear of contact

First of all, Joe, its good to see you posting more.

I think Boris had an advantage at SF against the Spurs because Pops plays small at that position with Fins and Ginobli. If you look around the WC, you'll see that no other team is so lacking in guys that could contend with Boris at that position. The Lakers could and probably would put Odom on him if they're at full strength. Beyond him they have Turiaf and Radmanovic - heck, Ariza could probably defend Boris fairly well. Utah - Kirilenko and Paul Milsap; Houston - Battier, Scola, Hayes and Carl Landry to pick among; Dallas - Josh Howard, Brandon Bass, Dirk; Denver - Carmelo, Najera, Linas Kleiza; NO - West(w. Ely taking over at PF), Julian Wright, Hilton Armstrong; Clips - TT, Josh Powell, Al Thornton; Portland - Channing Frye, Outlaw, Aldredge may well slide over with Oden playing. GS might be more vulnerable but Pietrus played Boris fairly well in the last game I watched. I didn't list the teams that don't figure to be in the playoff hunt but they are fairly well equipped to deal with Boris trying to make hay in the low post, too.

I agree more with your later statements about looking for opportunities to post Diaw when he has a size mismatch, but Boris does that quite regularly already - in fact he loves to pick off a guard going under a screen and bully him down low.

Now if we continued with that line of thought and played Grant Hill at SG we'd have a line up that few teams would match up favorably against - something I was hoping that D'Antoni would try even before we had Shaq. Fat chance, of course, as he's still infatuated with small ball...
 

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Is talking that important of an issue?

Diaw was the best last resort DA could fall back on in the series. No doubt about that, despite his costly last-second turnover. But who forced the Suns into this position in the first place? Don't tell me Amare, who never developed anything independent of Nash, and Nash, who already was killed by Spurs defense the same way in last years and repeatedly in similar ways by Pistons, NO, and the same damn Spurs this year.

Nash and Amare's complaints are essentially directed at this. And Amare made himself look stupid in his wording that appear as if he was jeaulous of Diaw. Both were staged into looking bad against Spurs by stubbornness and myopia by DA. And I'm just amazed that some of you always single out Amare as the one to blame!:(
 

BC867

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First of all, Joe, its good to see you posting more.
Yes, Joe, it's good to see your posts.

Once in awhile, we've seen others comment on how none of us are coaches and we should leave it up to them.

Unfortunately, when it comes to big men, D'Antoni seems to be as much a novice as the rest of us.

I agree that Boris could excel at the Small Forward position (rather than Center). But I'd love to have a Coach who knows how to best use him.

It's beginning to look like D'Antoni getting permission to talk to Chicago and New York will open the door to that. But, as posted elsewhere on this board, will Sarver pay for a well-rounded, talented Head Coach?

Time will tell.
 

Joe Mama

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Joe,

First of all, Joe, its good to see you posting more.

I think Boris had an advantage at SF against the Spurs because Pops plays small at that position with Fins and Ginobli. If you look around the WC, you'll see that no other team is so lacking in guys that could contend with Boris at that position. The Lakers could and probably would put Odom on him if they're at full strength. Beyond him they have Turiaf and Radmanovic - heck, Ariza could probably defend Boris fairly well. Utah - Kirilenko and Paul Milsap; Houston - Battier, Scola, Hayes and Carl Landry to pick among; Dallas - Josh Howard, Brandon Bass, Dirk; Denver - Carmelo, Najera, Linas Kleiza; NO - West(w. Ely taking over at PF), Julian Wright, Hilton Armstrong; Clips - TT, Josh Powell, Al Thornton; Portland - Channing Frye, Outlaw, Aldredge may well slide over with Oden playing. GS might be more vulnerable but Pietrus played Boris fairly well in the last game I watched. I didn't list the teams that don't figure to be in the playoff hunt but they are fairly well equipped to deal with Boris trying to make hay in the low post, too.

I agree more with your later statements about looking for opportunities to post Diaw when he has a size mismatch, but Boris does that quite regularly already - in fact he loves to pick off a guard going under a screen and bully him down low.

Now if we continued with that line of thought and played Grant Hill at SG we'd have a line up that few teams would match up favorably against - something I was hoping that D'Antoni would try even before we had Shaq. Fat chance, of course, as he's still infatuated with small ball...

Okay, there's no way on going to go through this entire list of players and are you on each one of them. Some of these guys would definitely beatable to play Boris. Several of them are centers, and a bunch of them are power forwards. and honestly I think he would surprise a lot of people if they just tried going to him down low more often. More than his size advantage on many nights I think his biggest advantage down there is probably his footwork. Of course that leads to my biggest frustration within which is his aversion to contact. It's my belief that he could get a lot of these guys in foul trouble fairly quickly because he is so good at getting defenders up in the air and out of position.

My biggest fear about changing coaches is that we are going to end up with someone worse than Mike D'Antoni. I really don't want a coach who will slow the offense to a screeching halt, and insist on calling every single play, and take away all the reasons people loved watching this team. I'm not against replacing coach Mike. I'm just afraid of who might replace him.

Joe
 

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Joe,

First of all, Joe, its good to see you posting more.

I think Boris had an advantage at SF against the Spurs because Pops plays small at that position with Fins and Ginobli. If you look around the WC, you'll see that no other team is so lacking in guys that could contend with Boris at that position. The Lakers could and probably would put Odom on him if they're at full strength. Beyond him they have Turiaf and Radmanovic - heck, Ariza could probably defend Boris fairly well. Utah - Kirilenko and Paul Milsap; Houston - Battier, Scola, Hayes and Carl Landry to pick among; Dallas - Josh Howard, Brandon Bass, Dirk; Denver - Carmelo, Najera, Linas Kleiza; NO - West(w. Ely taking over at PF), Julian Wright, Hilton Armstrong; Clips - TT, Josh Powell, Al Thornton; Portland - Channing Frye, Outlaw, Aldredge may well slide over with Oden playing. GS might be more vulnerable but Pietrus played Boris fairly well in the last game I watched. I didn't list the teams that don't figure to be in the playoff hunt but they are fairly well equipped to deal with Boris trying to make hay in the low post, too.

I agree more with your later statements about looking for opportunities to post Diaw when he has a size mismatch, but Boris does that quite regularly already - in fact he loves to pick off a guard going under a screen and bully him down low.

Now if we continued with that line of thought and played Grant Hill at SG we'd have a line up that few teams would match up favorably against - something I was hoping that D'Antoni would try even before we had Shaq. Fat chance, of course, as he's still infatuated with small ball...

Wow, I think you have accumulated way too many guys on that list that supposedly can guard Diaw. TT???, are you kidding, not near quick enough, ridiculous! Radmonivic???, he's terrible on D, preposterous! Josh howard is just not strong enough on the low block. Carmello, Kleiza, and Najerha, not a chance, terrible defenders. The guys who have done well on Boris, as I recall are:

odom down low(long arms, as long as boris doesnt get him 15' from the basket)

scola: stong and cagey, good down low, not so up high
Bass: physical, and smart, has all the tools
Chuck Hayes: an excellent defender down low
Battier: can guard any '3' one of the best.
Roy can do it, no doubt, aldridge will be on a PF not a SF

the rest have some defficiency in experience, size, or quickness. Oh yeah a healthy elton brand can guard him very well, shut him down. But brand plays PF.

The problem with running plays through amare is he doesnt pass well, not at all. If amare develops a decent passing game his offensive capability will be realized, if not, he will be much easier to defend with various double teaming schemes and flops. My concern with amare offensively is when the ball gets stuck with him, it becomes a problem. He has great difficulty getting rid of the ball against good defense without a TO or losing alot of time off the clock, and setting the suns up for a deperation shot as the clock expires. Amare does not read the double and punish it like a top notch big man(Duncan, KG, Rasheed, Dirk). In this area, he still acts like a very young player. Some think that amare needs to be developed, but most dominant big guys either have defensive instincts or they dont. Lamarcus aldrige has them, Elton Brand has them, Tim Duncan has them, KG has them, Bynum has them, Dwight Howard has them, chris bosch has them. The only big I can think of that came in and was poor defensively, and then got much better was Dirk. Dirk is a much better defender than he was, it took a long time and he still isnt that good a defender. But dirk uses his body/length way better than amare doesn down low.
 

Errntknght

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Wow, I think you have accumulated way too many guys on that list that supposedly can guard Diaw. TT???, are you kidding, not near quick enough, ridiculous! Radmonivic???, he's terrible on D, preposterous! Josh howard is just not strong enough on the low block. Carmello, Kleiza, and Najerha, not a chance, terrible defenders.

Recall that I said these were players that could contend with Boris on the low block but it is necessarily somewhat speculative because we've rarely tried using him that way so I went with players that did play fairly consistently for their teams, had the height or strength to do it and were not notoriously slow afoot. Nor could they be players needed to guard our PF & C - that was why I didn't include Elton Brand for the Clips, among a number of others. On the other hand I didn't worry about the guy's listed position because coaches generally don't hesitate to move guys around to where they're needed. (West and Aldridge I listed because their teams have the resources to allow them to guard Boris, if need be.)

I did hesitate putting Josh Howard on the list for just the reason you stated but I'm not so sure he's that weak and he'd probably do a good job of denying Boris the ball - I think he's comparable to Pietrus who Boris did not have his way with down low.

Interesting that you picked TT and Radman to object to - I know as well as you that they are not noted for their defensive prowess, but I've seen them matched up against Boris and they held their own with him. Boris certainly didn't overpower either one of them down low - so much for your 'ridiculous' and 'preposterous'.

When it comes to the Denver bunch, you're speculating as much as I am because those guys have not been matched up against Diaw. True they are not good defenders but the question is: would Diaw punish them in the low post like he did Finley & Gino? I'm fairly sure 'Mello is stronger than Boris and Kleiza looks like he is, though that could be illusory. Maybe Kenyon Martin would have been a better choice than Najera but he didn't come to mind when I was contriving my list.
 

nowagimp

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Recall that I said these were players that could contend with Boris on the low block but it is necessarily somewhat speculative because we've rarely tried using him that way so I went with players that did play fairly consistently for their teams, had the height or strength to do it and were not notoriously slow afoot. Nor could they be players needed to guard our PF & C - that was why I didn't include Elton Brand for the Clips, among a number of others. On the other hand I didn't worry about the guy's listed position because coaches generally don't hesitate to move guys around to where they're needed. (West and Aldridge I listed because their teams have the resources to allow them to guard Boris, if need be.)

I did hesitate putting Josh Howard on the list for just the reason you stated but I'm not so sure he's that weak and he'd probably do a good job of denying Boris the ball - I think he's comparable to Pietrus who Boris did not have his way with down low.

Interesting that you picked TT and Radman to object to - I know as well as you that they are not noted for their defensive prowess, but I've seen them matched up against Boris and they held their own with him. Boris certainly didn't overpower either one of them down low - so much for your 'ridiculous' and 'preposterous'.

When it comes to the Denver bunch, you're speculating as much as I am because those guys have not been matched up against Diaw. True they are not good defenders but the question is: would Diaw punish them in the low post like he did Finley & Gino? I'm fairly sure 'Mello is stronger than Boris and Kleiza looks like he is, though that could be illusory. Maybe Kenyon Martin would have been a better choice than Najera but he didn't come to mind when I was contriving my list.

You have your projections I have mine, I just disagree on many of your projected defenders against boris. I do not give credit to TT for defending boris straight up if he needs double team help, same for radman and many of the others you identify. I gave a short listy fo guys who can do it straight up, and there aint that many.
 

Errntknght

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I do not give credit to TT for defending boris straight up if he needs double team help, same for radman and many of the others you identify.

They didn't need help defending Boris on the low block because Boris didn't even challenge them on that part of the floor. Its true that further out from the basket Boris had some success against them but at the other end of the floor they did as well against him - so what triumph is there in a wash against two middling, offensive minded players?

In one of Joe's first posts that started this sequence, he opined that Boris could give bigger defenders on the block some trouble - if he suddenly became aggressive going to the bucket. That may well be true but we know by now that that is one mighty big 'if'. Guys of TT's and Radman's ilk are probably the ones he could do well against but to date he's never tried - he only gets aggressive when he has a size/strength mismatch.
 

95pro

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s A smith was just on espn.

saying that teammates are at odds.

claiming 3D wants a more defensive minded coach, while other players want to keep Dumbtoni.

i think, nash, stat, & barbs want to keep dtoni. lol
 

Hat

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s A smith was just on espn.

saying that teammates are at odds.

claiming 3D wants a more defensive minded coach, while other players want to keep Dumbtoni.

i think, nash, stat, & barbs want to keep dtoni. lol

who's 3D?
 

Bufalay

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Boris Diaw.

His number is 3.

Could go for a triple double every night.

3D

You are forgetting the key ingredient he can dribble, drive and dish. or something like that. I remember Leander seemed really proud about how perfect the nickname fit. He even explained it to Diaw. Luckily for Leander Diaw is a pretty polite guy and just kind of nodded along with him. Anyone else probably would've stabbed him.
 
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