Butler Denied Permission, Horton Expected to be Next DC

[kerouac9]

i will gladly throw this entire season away if it means we land luck.

my question is, if whiz was really gunning for butler, why didn't he know that pitt was going to turn him down? i'm certain someone from that FO has ties to whiz and could have let him know, "hey buddy, don't get your hopes up on making a run at butler . . . ain't happening."

Shouldn't it be clear at this point? The Steelers organization (maybe not the players, maybe not the coaching staff) did not like Whis OR Grimm. Both got interviews with the front office, and the front office hired someone from outside the organization. Since then, Coach Whisenhunt has done nothing by try and poach their staff. I'm sure that the Steelers' front office is sitting there letting Horton leave and laughing at Whis.

Maybe Horton is a quality assistant waiting to break out like Haley was. Maybe Mike Miller was someone that the Steelers hated to see leave and will turn around the league-second-worst offense that he helped spearhead this season. But the Cards did a wretched job managing expectations this offseason WRT the defensive coordinator search.

 

[joeshmo]

Who denies permission? Is it the GM, ownership, or HC ? Or can any of them do it? I would think there has to be an official protocal and ownership did it.

Apparently the HC Mike Tomlin was willing to let him interview. Even said as such during media days before the Super Bowl. He would not stand in the way of coaches getting promotions, especially considering how he got his job. It is also the reason for the rumors why people were saying just a few days ago that they would not deny permission. But again just rumor, it looks as if it wasn't the Coach or GM it was the owner that said no.

 

[O]

Ten years as a player, two Super Bowl appearances. As a Bengal his position coach was Dick LaBeau.
Seventeen years as a coach with two Super Bowl appearances.

It would seem the only thing missing is an engineering degree.

 

[joeshmo]

What makes a LB coach more qualified than a DB coach?

Actually there are some who think a DB coach makes for a better DC because more game planning goes into the DB position then the LB positions. I forgot who was interviewed last week that actually talked about it but I think it may have been Schefter.

 

[Hypothesis]

I just looked up LeBeau's coaching career. He was never more than a DB before being promoted to DC. What a bunch of idiots. They should have gone with a guy with more experience.

Yeah, I agree...Dick Lebeau has no business being DC..he hasn't proven squat.

 

[joeshmo]

When no one can run the ball on your defense, the only alternative is to throw the ball. A bunch. And, with today's rules, no secondary is going to completely shut down anyone.

Besides, Pittsburgh was 12th in passing defense overall. That is not shabby when you consider they were number one against the rush and teams often had to try to throw to catch up.

Just to expand on your point even more. They were 12th in the NFL in passing yards given up. That is pretty good. But it is actually pretty great when you find out they got to 12th even though teams passed on them 37 times a game 4th most passed on team in the NFL. 3rd fewest TD's given. 2nd fewest big plays given up (20+ and 40+ yard pass plays). 2nd lowest QB rating given up. 3rd fewest 1st downs given up.

People are acting like this guy produced nothing but crap and made a bunch of crappy players. Reality is he helped make a great unit and people are basing their opinions on nothing but one game, a game most fresh in their memories, a game where the NFL D MVP decided not to show up for once in his life.

 

[Snakester]

You have nothing to base this off of or back it up with other than your anger that they didn't hire a"name" guy. Your just being ignorant.

Okay, I can only guess that you don't care who the Cardinals hire or even if the guy is any good. My basis is the guy has never been a DC ever. Pittsburgh's major weakness is the defensive backfield where this guy is the coach. What is your basis for saying that this guy is good and will be a great DC?

 

[sportznutt]

Horton must now choose.

 

[joeshmo]

Well, I just cruised through every Steeler message board I could find. Noticed two things:

Everyone is ecstatic that Butler is staying, and no one gives a crap that Horton is leaving. Hell, some of them are even laughing at us and thanking Whis for taking him away.

Sounds awesome.

Yeah because fans of out going people are really good indicators of what the person actually can do.

How many coaches or players have left us only to have good careers somewhere and us fans say good riddance? "Hah, Ha, I cant believe they paid so and so that money, idiots"

 

[O]

People are acting like this guy produced nothing but crap and made a bunch of crappy players. Reality is he helped make a great unit and people are basing their opinions on nothing but one game, a game most fresh in their memories, a game where the NFL D MVP decided not to show up for once in his life.

As one who works in the live entertainment industry I can attest to that fact.
You're only as good as your last show or in this case your last game.

 

[Snakester]

Well, I just cruised through every Steeler message board I could find. Noticed two things:

Everyone is ecstatic that Butler is staying, and no one gives a crap that Horton is leaving. Hell, some of them are even laughing at us and thanking Whis for taking him away.

Sounds awesome.

That sounds about right. But some will say that Pitt fans are just jealous of the Cardinals and Horton is really the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[joeshmo]

On Luck I am right there with you. Tank it and get him. Maybe Lebeau is going to call it a day and retire? Steelers deny permission on this basis and we have to scramble and end up with Horton or someone else because they are available(why is Pitts dumping him and letting his contract expire?). It just seems as if it was played to make the Cards look incompetent. They may just be.

Besides Butler their whole D staff contracts has expired. None of them have been re-signed yet. It isn't like they don't like Horton, its just they they don't want to stop a promotion, and in Butlers case they still think they will be giving him a promotion at some point, maybe even this year.

 

[joeshmo]

1. I may be wrong, but it seems that most assistant coach's contracts expire and then are resigned after their contracts expire. I can't remember the last time one of our assistant coach's contract was renewed in the middle of a season.

Just last year more then a few were. Not sure who but most of them were extended and given clauses that coincide with what they will get paid if there is a lock out.

 

[Hypothesis]

Just to expand on your point even more. They were 12th in the NFL in passing yards given up. That is pretty good. But it is actually pretty great when you find out they got to 12th even though teams passed on them 37 times a game 4th most passed on team in the NFL. 3rd fewest TD's given. 2nd fewest big plays given up (20+ and 40+ yard pass plays). 2nd lowest QB rating given up. 3rd fewest 1st downs given up.

People are acting like this guy produced nothing but crap and made a bunch of crappy players. Reality is he helped make a great unit and people are basing their opinions on nothing but one game, a game most fresh in their memories, a game where the NFL D MVP decided not to show up for once in his life.

Excellent points.

But because Horton has been a coach for 16 years and never been a DC he must suck right?

 

[joeshmo]

everyone that's saying "Pitts dumping him and letting his contract expire" also has to realize that though the rooneys are extremely successful, they've also been historically extremely frugal. when something costs too much for them, they usually let it walk with the thought that they're good enough to adequately replace it. with butler's big contract they may have just thought, "geez, horton's hearing rumblings about DC-ship too now, i don't think we can afford two big-time assistant contracts, gotta let one of 'em go and we just like butler more." doesn't mean that they think horton's garbage, may just be a cost-benefit analysis on their part.

look, i don't know much about horton other than the fact that he's studied under lebeau for years, has coached on one of the top defenses for years, and was instrumental in making polamalu the DPOY. did the secondary get torched in the superbowl? yup. did that secondary make it to the superbowl? yup. i like his pedigree. i hope he lives up to lebeau's standards. ain't nothing else out there that sends fireworks in the sky for me.

Good even unemotional analysis. I agree.

 

[Shane]

Okay, I can only guess that you don't care who the Cardinals hire or even if the guy is any good. My basis is the guy has never been a DC ever. Pittsburgh's major weakness is the defensive backfield where this guy is the coach. What is your basis for saying that this guy is good and will be a great DC?

I care and Horton isn't fron left field. If you care to look you would know that while the secondary was a weakness it was far from horrible and was in fact good. You again are just spouting off at the mouth with nothing to back it up. NOTHING! Just because he has never been a DC doesn't make him a bad choice. No matter how much you say that doesn't make it true!

 

[joeshmo]

Pittsburgh's major weakness is the defensive backfield where this guy is the coach.

It may have been their "weakness", but 12th in the NFL along with other stats I just posted on this very page prove that it was still a good pass defense. But its my first time looking up stats so I could be wrong.

Its like Saying Harrison is the weaker of the two OLB. Sure Woodley may be better but does that make Harrison crap or a major weakness?

 

[joeshmo]

I care and Horton isn't fron left field. If you care to look you would know that while the secondary was a weakness it was far from horrible and was in fact good. You again are just spouting off at the mouth with nothing to back it up. NOTHING! Just because he has never been a DC doesn't make him a bad choice. No matter how much you say that doesn't make it true!

Its just like free agency. A month or two before it happens people get these small lists in their heads of people they want and only getting those people will make things a success. Nothing else will appease. They get those names stuck in their heads for so long and dreams of grandeur that if they don't get one of those name players the whole off season is ruined.

 

[ajcardfan]

Its just like free agency. A month or two before it happens people get these small lists in their heads of people they want and only getting those people will make things a success. Nothing else will appease. They get those names stuck in their heads for so long and dreams of grandeur that if they don't get one of those name players the whole off season is ruined.

I can understand that. What I don't get is the complaint that we waited too long. What? :dcr: By waiting this long, coaches who were in the Super Bowl became options!

 

[TJ]

The two DCs in this year's Superbowl:

Dom Capers - DBs coach at the collegiate and professional ranks from 1975 - 1991

Dick LeBeau - DBs coach at the professional ranks 1976 - 1983 and from 1992 - 1994

In short: two of the best DCs in the league started as defensive backs coaches.

In contrast, Clancy Pendergast and Billy Davis came through the ranks as linebackers coaches.



I think this is a good change of pace, especially for a guy who was given a ringing endorsement from Bill Cowher. Ill admit, I dont know much about Horton except that he played an integral part in the development of Troy Polamalu and coached other successful DBs like Ike Taylor.

 

[Snakester]

It may have been their "weakness", but 12th in the NFL along with other stats I just posted on this very page prove that it was still a good pass defense. But its my first time looking up stats so I could be wrong.

Its like Saying Harrison is the weaker of the two OLB. Sure Woodley may be better but does that make Harrison crap or a major weakness?

I think alot of what got them that 12th ranking had to do with their passrush and not their DB's. Anyway, we will find out just how good this guy is at the end of this season. Anyone think we will have a top ten defense because we hired Horton?

 

[perivolaki]

Besides Butler their whole D staff contracts has expired. None of them have been re-signed yet. It isn't like they don't like Horton, its just they they don't want to stop a promotion, and in Butlers case they still think they will be giving him a promotion at some point, maybe even this year.

I agree. I also heard that to keep Butler last year they gave him a two year contract at about 750,000 per year, a big amount foe a linebackers coach.

I heard because of that investment in Butler they weren't just going to let him walk away with a year left on his contract.

Hortons contract on the other hand expires.

Also heard Jurecki say that Horton was extremely impressive and that he is a high energy guy and a high motivational guy and will certainly command respect from players.

 

[ajcardfan]

I think alot of what got them that 12th ranking had to do with their passrush and not their DB's. Anyway, we will find out just how good this guy is at the end of this season. Anyone think we will have a top ten defense because we hired Horton?

No, not him alone. We also need an elite pass rusher, and an ILB, at the very least, to even sniff the top half of defenses. But, no DC was going to be able to overcome those holes.

 

[Duckjake]

So you would rather have a DC that has been calling plays against college spread offenses his whole career instead?

So why did the Ravens, who have a far, far, better track record on defense hire Greg Mattison who had never coached a down in the NFL to be their DC?

How about the Defensive Backs coach for the Patriots? His last 3 jobs before joining NE were at Kent State, Bryant University and South Dakota School of Mines and Technology.

 

[Hypothesis]

For anyone that missed it, here is the interview of Ray Horton on Bickley & MJ.

http://archive.xtra910.com

He's a well spoken guy who describes himself as "a duck on the water. Everything looks calm and peaceful on the surface, but underneath you're paddling like hell." Seems his idea of a defense is pressure and turnovers. Seems to have a "we'll hit you mentality". Says he is very involved with game planning. I like him.