Cardinals' 2018 Retool is On and QBOF is Off

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
18,174
Reaction score
16,250
Location
Modesto, California
Dalton smokes him in yards..2013 when he was 27 td 2 int is the only reason he's in the ballpark. Dalton can read a D and is consistent. Foles one awesome NFC championship game and 2013. That's it
lol... of course he smokes him in yards. Dalton has started every year of his career,.... Foles has less than half the number of starts.
But the one season Foles did start nearly an entire season he ended with a 119 QBR and a pro bowl berth.
Had he started every year his yards would be very similar to Daltons.

the biggest difference is the bengals invested in Dalton and had faith in him while he was maturing as a QB...but the iggles were impatient with Foles.

Funny enough, what we are seeing now in Foles that nobody knows about Dalton... is that Foles holds up under the pressures of really big games. Does Dalton?
 

Carolinacacti

Hall of Famer
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Posts
2,308
Reaction score
1,306
Location
Charlotte NC
My two cents. Draft a QB and let Wilks rally the troops at the Alamo. Time to build this team right.
 

sdscard4

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Posts
3,640
Reaction score
2,686
Location
Louisville
lol... of course he smokes him in yards. Dalton has started every year of his career,.... Foles has less than half the number of starts.
But the one season Foles did start nearly an entire season he ended with a 119 QBR and a pro bowl berth.
Had he started every year his yards would be very similar to Daltons.

the biggest difference is the bengals invested in Dalton and had faith in him while he was maturing as a QB...but the iggles were impatient with Foles.

Funny enough, what we are seeing now in Foles that nobody knows about Dalton... is that Foles holds up under the pressures of really big games. Does Dalton?
He had plenty of chances....saying he would be just like Dalton had he started is pure speculation. He had 1 great year and then became Nick Freaking Foles again. Remember this when he totally crumbles next week.
 

NeverSayDieFan

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Feb 13, 2004
Posts
2,864
Reaction score
210
Always enjoy your thoughts, bud. Let me add this. NEIL LOMAX- 2nd rounder. I still think he would have had a Dan Marino-career if he'd had the o-line than Marino had. My point is simple. NOT all the "gold" is mined in the 1st round. We WILL get a quality QB somehow...someway. I'm not worried in the least.

Mark in SC :)
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,297
Location
Colorado
Dalton smokes him in yards..2013 when he was 27 td 2 int is the only reason he's in the ballpark. Dalton can read a D and is consistent. Foles one awesome NFC championship game and 2013. That's it
I can't help it if you think Dalton is a QB worth trading for. If you watch the games, you either see an extremely limited QB or you don't know how to watch games. I generally don't get into the "I am smarter about football than you" games on this board, but in this case, I will. If you think Andy Dalton is a top 20 QB in the NFL, you don't understand how to evaluate QBs.
 

sdscard4

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Posts
3,640
Reaction score
2,686
Location
Louisville
I can't help it if you think Dalton is a QB worth trading for. If you watch the games, you either see an extremely limited QB or you don't know how to watch games. I generally don't get into the "I am smarter about football than you" games on this board, but in this case, I will. If you think Andy Dalton is a top 20 QB in the NFL, you don't understand how to evaluate QBs.
Never wanted to trade for him. I believe he's got a good football IQ for a veteran QB. I see the glass half full you see half empty. Yes I believe he's a top 20 qb. There goes my career in QB evaluation. And I will now listen to games instead of watching. Feel better?
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,297
Location
Colorado
Never wanted to trade for him. I believe he's got a good football IQ for a veteran QB. I see the glass half full you see half empty. Yes I believe he's a top 20 qb. There goes my career in QB evaluation. And I will now listen to games instead of watching. Feel better?
Unfortunately, I see no point is debating with someone who believes Andy Dalton is better than

Brady
Flacco
Roethlisberger
Luck
Brissett
Watson
Mariota
Alex Smith
Derek Carr
Rivers
Dak
Wentz
Cousins
Eli
Rodgers
Stafford
Brees
Winston
Cam
Ryan
Wilson
Goff
Garappolo

you are set to ignore
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,172
Reaction score
12,108
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Unfortunately, I see no point is debating with someone who believes Andy Dalton is better than

Brady
Flacco
Roethlisberger
Luck
Brissett
Watson
Mariota

Alex Smith
Derek Carr
Rivers
Dak
Wentz
Cousins
Eli
Rodgers
Stafford
Brees
Winston
Cam
Ryan
Wilson
Goff
Garappolo

you are set to ignore

I highlighted guys I think are either equal, worse, or TBD compared to Dalton.

Equal:
Flacco
Carr
Manning (He's slipping in old age - clearly his career has been superior, but if you made me pick between the two just for 2018, I would have a hard time making the decision.

Worse:
Mariota (for now, but I do anticipate this to change)
Winston (for now, I don't anticipate this to change but it could)
Brissett

TBD:
Luck (don't think he's going to play another down in the NFL)
Watson (2 ACL tears scares me)
Garoppolo (I anticipate he'll end up being the superior QB but can't promise it with such a small sample size)

I wouldn't want to trade for Andy Dalton but his body of work supports him being in the top 20, I would say. He's just wildly inconsistent.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Never wanted to trade for him. I believe he's got a good football IQ for a veteran QB. I see the glass half full you see half empty. Yes I believe he's a top 20 qb. There goes my career in QB evaluation. And I will now listen to games instead of watching. Feel better?

I agree with you about Andy Dalton. I would love the Cardinals to acquire him. Career stats:

62.3 %
25,534 yds.
167 TDs
93 ints
88.7 QBR

Rushing stats:

1,049 yds., 18 TDs 98 1st Downs...only 4 lost fumbles in his 7 year career.

He's a tough, smart and highly competitive QB. He needs to break through in the playoffs...he and the team. I think his best football is ahead of him.
 

Southpaw

Provocateur aka Wallyburger
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Posts
39,818
Reaction score
3,410
Location
The urban swamp
I want to be the Devil's advocate


Unfortunately, I see no point is debating with someone who believes Andy Dalton is better than

Brady - GOAT
Flacco - Meh. He has the 1 Super Bowl
Roethlisberger - much better Top 10
Luck - Great when healthy
Brissett - meh
Watson - too small of a resume
Mariota - meh so far Mr. Potential
Alex Smith - Top 10
Derek Carr - Jury is out
Rivers - Top 10
Dak - Meh
Wentz - Top 10
Cousins - ??????
Eli - over rated but 2 Super Bowls
Rodgers - #1 right now
Stafford - lots of stats
Brees - Top 10
Winston - Over rated
Cam - Top 10
Ryan - Top 10 barely
Wilson - Top 10
Goff - 2 years and too soon
Garappolo - too soon

Brady - GOAT
Flacco - Meh. He has the 1 Super Bowl
Roethlisberger - much better Top 10
Luck - Great when healthy
Brissett - meh
Watson - too small of a resume
Mariota - meh so far Mr. Potential
Alex Smith - Top 10
Derek Carr - Jury is out
Rivers - Top 10
Dak - Meh
Wentz - Top 10
Cousins - ??????
Eli - over rated but 2 Super Bowls
Rodgers - #1 right now
Stafford - lots of stats
Brees - Top 10
Winston - Over rated
Cam - Top 10
Ryan - Top 10 barely
Wilson - Top 10
Goff - 2 years and too soon
Garappolo - too soon

The mehs are worse than him or on par

Andy Dalton is serviceable at best on a declining team with bad caoching. IMNSHO
 

Lagerfilled

Professional Tailgater
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Posts
1,578
Reaction score
785
Location
Amen Corner
I want to be the Devil's advocate




Brady - GOAT
Flacco - Meh. He has the 1 Super Bowl
Roethlisberger - much better Top 10
Luck - Great when healthy
Brissett - meh
Watson - too small of a resume
Mariota - meh so far Mr. Potential
Alex Smith - Top 10
Derek Carr - Jury is out
Rivers - Top 10
Dak - Meh
Wentz - Top 10
Cousins - ??????
Eli - over rated but 2 Super Bowls
Rodgers - #1 right now
Stafford - lots of stats
Brees - Top 10
Winston - Over rated
Cam - Top 10
Ryan - Top 10 barely
Wilson - Top 10
Goff - 2 years and too soon
Garappolo - too soon

The mehs are worse than him or on par

Andy Dalton is serviceable at best on a declining team with bad caoching. IMNSHO

I'm having a real hard time putting Cam or DangeRuss in the Top 10. Maybe just outside the Top 10.
 

sdscard4

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Posts
3,640
Reaction score
2,686
Location
Louisville
Unfortunately, I see no point is debating with someone who believes Andy Dalton is better than

Brady
Flacco
Roethlisberger
Luck
Brissett
Watson
Mariota
Alex Smith
Derek Carr
Rivers
Dak
Wentz
Cousins
Eli
Rodgers
Stafford
Brees
Winston
Cam
Ryan
Wilson
Goff
Garappolo

you are set to ignore
Lol I'm not debating just stating my opinion . looks like most feel the same. Lots of people for you to ignore. Relax... Dalton must have cost you some serious money
 

sdscard4

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Posts
3,640
Reaction score
2,686
Location
Louisville
I agree with you about Andy Dalton. I would love the Cardinals to acquire him. Career stats:

62.3 %
25,534 yds.
167 TDs
93 ints
88.7 QBR

Rushing stats:

1,049 yds., 18 TDs 98 1st Downs...only 4 lost fumbles in his 7 year career.

He's a tough, smart and highly competitive QB. He needs to break through in the playoffs...he and the team. I think his best football is ahead of him.
Most impressive is the only 4 lost fumbles. That's actually pretty amazing!
 

wit3card

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Posts
2,948
Reaction score
1,782
If you get Daton for a 6th rounder like Carson Palmer, than you stole 2 QB from Cincy & Oakland that can be good enough to bring you to the playoffs.

That is more you can ask for.

On the other hand, Dalton is very inconsistant, like Palmer, he doesn't have the "I got you" wipe around you like Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Eli Manning (When on fire), Roethlisberger, Luck when healthy or sometimes Wilson(and sometimes he needs the D so badly to stay in the game that he can make that game wining drive).

And no Cam doesn't have it, Cam is I win it from the get go or I surrender it. Like Matty Iced ... he isn't good enough to win you the game. But they are good enough to put your D in position to win it, same goes for Flacco, Cousins, Carr, Wentz, Goff, Foels(under the right system), Stafford, Smith, Garappolo(from what we saw he could be better), Watson(for what we saw), Dalton, Rivers, Bridgewater(before injury), Bradford(when healthy) and Palmer (was on this level too expect for 1 season and post season in post season he somehow only showed up once).

Brisett, Taylor, Keenum, Gabbert, Stanton and so on, need a D to win the game, Prescott needs Zeke and the D. But ultimatly some of them aren't able to win the game without the D.

And that means only 4 teams have a QB that can shoulder the team at the moment and win it for them. Luck, Manning,Wilson aren't at that level, Manning isn't anymore, Luck maybe will never be again and Wilson is to inconsistent between really bad and good enough.

So when you don't have Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Brady you have to hope for a great D player that comes up strong. When Payton won his second SB it was Von Miller.

And Dalton didn't cost them the last 2 playoff games, one was soley on Burfict.

For me, Cousins/Dalton with our D and good ST play, can be a QB that is good enough to go every year to the playoffs, and with a good postseason run they could end up winning one or two SB, maybe in the right situation even more or none because of bad luck.

You don't know. Would I pay Cousins 20 Mio $ a year, yes, but 30 Mio $ will be maybe too much, expect someone knows exactly how to use him(and Washington is a bad franchise, they wouldn't recognize a franchise QB even if one would win them a SB expect it is the Backup and played only the SB and won because pure luck).

Would I take a risk on Luck if aviable, yes for sure, Brees showed you can have luck with that [luck with Luck ...]

I wouldn't touch Eli, Rivers or Smith. Eli isn't good anymore, not bad but not good enough, Rivers is to old for what we need and not good enoug and Smith showed, even with supporting Cast and D he can't win it all or go further in the playoffs.

Taylor for me is a interim QB a bit better than Gabbert or Stanton but not good enough. Bridgewater would be a game Manager like Smith that in my Opinion was good enough to win it all with a good enough D and RB support. Bradford ... is Bradford you get what you pay for he will miss some games.

So really it is, signing Cousins, trading Dalton or sign someone else and draft a QBoF. So yes no rebuild, but a new QB it will be, they will draft one this year, depending who is the starting QB it will be a #1 #2 or later round pick. And I wouldn't be surprised if they pick a small school QB or a sleeper like Riley Ferguson, Kyle Lauletta, Nick Stevens or Jeremiah Briscoe. And no I'm noit saying that any of this 4 guys is a NFL starting QB by now, but this guys have the potential to be at least a good Backup and they would be cheap, behind a expensive veteran QB. Although I think now Lauletta will rise to at least a day two selection as a pro style QB he has something many other QB in this draft don't have.
 

SissyBoyFloyd

Pawnee, Skidi Clan
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Posts
5,077
Reaction score
2,384
Location
Mesa, AZ
I predict the Cards will have a QB or 2 on the roster before OTAs and training camp :)

My dream is that it would be Smith and Josh Allen. I wish the Cards would just go ahead and offer the Brown's whatever it would take to move up and get him, like next year's 1st and 2nd and this year's first, or even Patrick peterson, this year's 1 and next year's 3 or 4.
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
18,174
Reaction score
16,250
Location
Modesto, California
My dream is that it would be Smith and Josh Allen. I wish the Cards would just go ahead and offer the Brown's whatever it would take to move up and get him, like next year's 1st and 2nd and this year's first, or even Patrick peterson, this year's 1 and next year's 3 or 4.
lol...if PP21 were in the mix first round picks wouldnt be... the league has set the value on franchise level players at two #1's, negotiable... but a player like that packs a lot of trade juice.
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
13,017
Reaction score
23,172
My dream is that it would be Smith and Josh Allen. I wish the Cards would just go ahead and offer the Brown's whatever it would take to move up and get him, like next year's 1st and 2nd and this year's first, or even Patrick peterson, this year's 1 and next year's 3 or 4.
You need to give me some of that stuff you’ve been on for like the past 2 months.
 

Vacard

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Posts
4,512
Reaction score
4,069
Location
VA
Cam & Russ are easily top 10, imo. Outside of Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Wentz, & somewhat Ben, I don’t think there’s anyone that’s truly better.
Russell is definately top 10 maybe Top 5.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,297
Location
Colorado
I highlighted guys I think are either equal, worse, or TBD compared to Dalton.

Equal:
Flacco
Carr
Manning (He's slipping in old age - clearly his career has been superior, but if you made me pick between the two just for 2018, I would have a hard time making the decision.

Worse:
Mariota (for now, but I do anticipate this to change)
Winston (for now, I don't anticipate this to change but it could)
Brissett

TBD:
Luck (don't think he's going to play another down in the NFL)
Watson (2 ACL tears scares me)
Garoppolo (I anticipate he'll end up being the superior QB but can't promise it with such a small sample size)

I wouldn't want to trade for Andy Dalton but his body of work supports him being in the top 20, I would say. He's just wildly inconsistent.


Andy Dalton is 30 years old. He isn't inconsistent, he is a fringe back up QB. The gap between him and Trevor Simien is not very large. Both are limited players who are smart, but do not have the physical tools to win games outside of optimal circumstances. For years Dalton has been buoyed by a very talented roster, and he has consistently under achieved.
 

daves

Keepin' it real!
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2003
Posts
3,526
Reaction score
7,209
Location
Orange County, CA
I don't want to argue the whole list, though i think Dalton is better than at least "several" of your guys, but seriously, Brissett?!?

I guess he did OK in his first year starting, but i really didn't see anything to get excited about. Looks like a career backup to me.

I'm not a huge Dalton fan, but he has made three Pro Bowls in 7 years, plus somehow missed in 2015 despite going 10-3 with a 106 passer rating.

...dbs

P.S. And will people PLEASE stop using "QBR" when they mean "passer rating"? The former is ESPN's wholly different rating, on a 0-100 scale, which factors in all kinds of things besides passing. Kinda cool, but not widely used. "Passer rating" is the very long-time NFL stat which may be less meaningful, but is much more widely used.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,297
Location
Colorado
I want to be the Devil's advocate




Brady - GOAT
Flacco - Meh. He has the 1 Super Bowl
Roethlisberger - much better Top 10
Luck - Great when healthy
Brissett - meh
Watson - too small of a resume
Mariota - meh so far Mr. Potential
Alex Smith - Top 10
Derek Carr - Jury is out
Rivers - Top 10
Dak - Meh
Wentz - Top 10
Cousins - ??????
Eli - over rated but 2 Super Bowls
Rodgers - #1 right now
Stafford - lots of stats
Brees - Top 10
Winston - Over rated
Cam - Top 10
Ryan - Top 10 barely
Wilson - Top 10
Goff - 2 years and too soon
Garappolo - too soon

The mehs are worse than him or on par

Andy Dalton is serviceable at best on a declining team with bad caoching. IMNSHO
So, in this scenario, which would you pick for your QB moving forward?

Flacco (33)
Brissett (24)
Watson (22)
Mariota (24)
Carr (26)
Dak (24)
Winston (24)
Goff (23)
Garappolo (26)
Dalton (30)

Most people would choose the younger player, with more physical ability than the older player who has established himself as limited.

I understand that the gap may not be huge between some of these players, but if you are looking at that list, Dalton is the guy who is lacking the most. He is small. He has a very limited arm. He is risk averse. He has zero post season success. He is older. I said it in another post, I would almost rather have Trevor Siemian than Dalton, if just to save money as both need loaded rosters to be a viable starting QB.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,297
Location
Colorado
I don't want to argue the whole list, though i think Dalton is better than at least "several" of your guys, but seriously, Brissett?!?

I guess he did OK in his first year starting, but i really didn't see anything to get excited about. Looks like a career backup to me.

I'm not a huge Dalton fan, but he has made three Pro Bowls in 7 years, plus somehow missed in 2015 despite going 10-3 with a 106 passer rating.

...dbs

P.S. And will people PLEASE stop using "QBR" when they mean "passer rating"? The former is ESPN's wholly different rating, on a 0-100 scale, which factors in all kinds of things besides passing. Kinda cool, but not widely used. "Passer rating" is the very long-time NFL stat which may be less meaningful, but is much more widely used.

Here is what I know about Brissett. He is big. He has enough arm strength to pressure a defense on every part of the field. He was part of a dumpster fire in Indy this year and came up with 4 wins. He is 24 and still has room to grow.

Andy Dalton is mediocre in every way. I was more forgiving of that when he was 25. I am less forgiving of that when he is 30. Andy Dalton was given a top 10 NFL offensive line, along with AJ Green, Marvin Jones, and Sanu. He couldn't win a playoff game. He has been given more stability than most QBs ever get. He has been given all of the tools to be successful and yet has nothing to show for it.

I will take Brissett every time.
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,172
Reaction score
12,108
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Andy Dalton is 30 years old. He isn't inconsistent, he is a fringe back up QB. The gap between him and Trevor Simien is not very large. Both are limited players who are smart, but do not have the physical tools to win games outside of optimal circumstances. For years Dalton has been buoyed by a very talented roster, and he has consistently under achieved.

There’s no way he’s a fringe backup. I’m not making any crazy claims here, just that he’s a top 20 QB right now, for this season. Yes, he has been given solid rosters to work with, but that franchise is also... weird.

Don’t mix this up as me wanting to trade for him, just that there’s 12 guys worse than him.
 

Latest posts

Staff online

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
553,590
Posts
5,408,554
Members
6,319
Latest member
route66
Top