Cardinals not paying Pace's salary

[Ryanwb]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2225914

This franchise is shrew

League and team sources confirmed that the Cardinals have opted, as is their prerogative for players on the non-football injury list, to withhold $306,544 of Pace's scheduled base salary of $473,750 for the 2005 season. That represents 65 percent of Pace's base salary.

Further, the team is expected to seek reimbursement for a prorated portion of the $2.1 million signing bonus that Pace received as a first-round choice in the 2003 draft. That could amount to approximately $271,000 more in penalties.

 

[TheCardFan]

Well...that is pretty much it for Pace in AZ.

 

[clif]

I really don't have a problem with it. If you are dumb enough to get into a wrestling match over a weekend so sever that it requires surgery and causes you to miss work.. I don't have a problem with him not getting paid. With his past history and the teams past history of quirky non football injuries I can see why they would do this.

 

[Ryanwb]

The only part I have an issue with is them going after his signing bonus. I consider that guaranteed money just as the word "bonus" indicates.

It's a damn shame because I think Pace is going to get released and will be a KVB situation and get a lot of sacks for another team.

 

[vince56]

Pace gets the honorary Carlos Mencia "Duh de duh" award.

 

[Russ Smith]

The only part I have an issue with is them going after his signing bonus. I consider that guaranteed money just as the word "bonus" indicates.

It's a damn shame because I think Pace is going to get released and will be a KVB situation and get a lot of sacks for another team.

Ditto, salary no problem, bonus seems a bit draconian. And I agree Pace will be somewhere else next year assuming he recovers fully.

 

[Ryanwb]

Was there any indication that Pace lied about the injury like Thomas Jones? I seem to remember that the Cardinals only came after his salary when the story of him being in a bar fight or something was the cause of his injury and not answering the phone.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Pace gets the honorary Carlos Mencia "Duh de duh" award.

I remember that award Grammatica received that one too.

 

[joeshmo]

The only part I have an issue with is them going after his signing bonus. I consider that guaranteed money just as the word "bonus" indicates.

It's a damn shame because I think Pace is going to get released and will be a KVB situation and get a lot of sacks for another team.

They arent going after his entire Signing bonus. Just the pro rated portion for this years games that he has missed. Comes out to about $271,000 of the 2.1 mill signing bonus.

 

[clif]

Was there any indication that Pace lied about the injury like Thomas Jones? I seem to remember that the Cardinals only came after his salary when the story of him being in a bar fight or something was the cause of his injury and not answering the phone.

I think it was a ... I won't tell the whole story type situation. I remember Denny trying to answer questions about what happened that monday morning after, and he seemed lost as to what happened.

With the cops apparently being involved it kinda raises a red flag even though no charges were filed.

 

[conraddobler]

Was there any indication that Pace lied about the injury like Thomas Jones? I seem to remember that the Cardinals only came after his salary when the story of him being in a bar fight or something was the cause of his injury and not answering the phone.

I think initially he had a different story that he was just leaning on it.

Then the whole wrestling thing came out and he came clean.

I don't have a problem with it per se but if it means that we are more draconian than other teams then it means FA et al will look at stuff like that and pass more than they would have.

It all adds up.

 

[CardinalLaw]

"Wow, What a Shocker."

 

[Sandan]

Ditto, salary no problem, bonus seems a bit draconian. And I agree Pace will be somewhere else next year assuming he recovers fully.

Why, if he violated his contract or are teams the only ones supposed to be held accountable for the contracts they sign.

I mean if the guy is stupid enough to do this, do we really give a damn. In his shoes I would have spent my vacation mostly at the training facility, trying to make the first team [or at least not get cut next year].

The example of Fred W shows that Denny responds well to players that are prepared to work their rears off to make the team.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Why, if he violated his contract or are teams the only ones supposed to be held accountable for the contracts they sign.

I mean if the guy is stupid enough to do this, do we really give a damn. In his shoes I would have spent my vacation mostly at the training facility, trying to make the first team [or at least not get cut next year].

The example of Fred W shows that Denny responds well to players that are prepared to work their rears off to make the team.

Exactly. I have no problem with the organization going after a pro rated amount of the signing bonus. They gave him that money, upfront, in good faith that he would fulfill his contract.

Wrestling with dudes in the wee hours of the morning, such as to injure your arm so much so that your season ends, is not fulfilling your contract.

 

[Russ Smith]

Why, if he violated his contract or are teams the only ones supposed to be held accountable for the contracts they sign.

I mean if the guy is stupid enough to do this, do we really give a damn. In his shoes I would have spent my vacation mostly at the training facility, trying to make the first team [or at least not get cut next year].

The example of Fred W shows that Denny responds well to players that are prepared to work their rears off to make the team.

Depends on the terms of the contract but in general signing bonuses are said to be guaranteed money paid for signing the contract. If this was a TO situation or Keyshawn or Ricky yeah go after the bonus, but in this case while Pace was clearly being stupid, it wasn't intentional.

I guess we'd have to see how another team handled a similar situation to really say is this the norm?

 

[Ryanwb]

I guess we'd have to see how another team handled a similar situation to really say is this the norm?

That's hard to say because only crap like this happens to this team

 

[Sandan]

Wrestling with dudes in the wee hours of the morning, such as to injure your arm so much so that your season ends, is not fulfilling your contract.

It's also very, very stupid

 

[Sandan]

No it happens to other teams as well but usually only big time names make the news.

I'm still seeing the Bidwill's are cheap implications here and what we really should be talking about is Pace is stupid.

Do we really want to retain a marginal [though improving] player who is this stupid ? What would he do next, maybe buy a motorbike and try stunt riding.

I have no problem with this

 

[joeshmo]

Depends on the terms of the contract but in general signing bonuses are said to be guaranteed money paid for signing the contract. If this was a TO situation or Keyshawn or Ricky yeah go after the bonus, but in this case while Pace was clearly being stupid, it wasn't intentional.

The Gauranteed word gets thrown around way way to often. There is no such thing and the media has made it to far of an envogue word when talking about contracts.

In all contracts there are outs in getting back the up front money.

What is the difference between not intentional and being stupid, either way its his fault. People dont purposely rear end people thats why its called an accident, but they still ahve to pay for anyways.

 

[Russ Smith]

The Gauranteed word gets thrown around way way to often. There is no such thing and the media has made it to far of an envogue word when talking about contracts.

In all contracts there are outs in getting back the up front money.

What is the difference between not intentional and being stupid, either way its his fault. People dont purposely rear end people thats why its called an accident, but they still ahve to pay for anyways.

To be fair we don't know precisely what happened but if it was a legit accident, it seems a bit over the top to me to go after the bonus.

But as Conrad said it did appear Pace wasn't completely upfront when it first happened.

 

[Sandan]

Russ I think you are missing the point.

Pace is paid to be a profesional athelte. Therefore it is part of his responsibilty to look after his body as part of his job. It's not the same as if you or I got hurt.

How would your employer feel if you turned up drunk to work ?

 

[Ryanwb]

How would your employer feel if you turned up drunk to work ?

They're going to fire your ass, not take away money they've already given you

 

[earthsci]

They're going to fire your ass, not take away money they've already given you

Does your boss typically give you money before you've earned it?

 

[conraddobler]

Russ I think you are missing the point.

Pace is paid to be a profesional athelte. Therefore it is part of his responsibilty to look after his body as part of his job. It's not the same as if you or I got hurt.

How would your employer feel if you turned up drunk to work ?

As I have said I don't have a problem with it per se.

The only issue about it is if we are going farther than a normal team would in the same situation then we take the legit risk that other players will note it and file it away for later thought if they happen to have a chance of landing here.

Players understand the salary part, the bonus part may also be understood by them, or it may not we don't know.

I am just saying that it's the win the battle lose the war kind of event. You may be right all day long but in the end it may cost you more than it's worth.

Again, they have every right I assume to do what they did, but that dosen't mean it had to be done that way or that it should.

I think a better way to handle it would be to say you don't condone that type of activity and you don't condone the inital fake story and you didn't buy it and that you want half his salary back.

That is more than fair, sends the signal you won't tolerate it but also says you aren't a cheapskate taking every chance to get your money back.

This team especially could benefit from just a little bit of that PR wise... we are known as cheap, this was an opportunity to prove otherwise and we didn't take it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ I think you are missing the point.

Pace is paid to be a profesional athelte. Therefore it is part of his responsibilty to look after his body as part of his job. It's not the same as if you or I got hurt.

How would your employer feel if you turned up drunk to work ?

I would get fired and I've seen it happen. Pace didn't show up drunk. Without knowing the whole story and going on what we've been told, it seems too much to me. Now if Pace was pounding beers right before the accident maybe I feel differently, if Pace was playing mumblypeg with a Rambo knife and cut himself I feel differently. All I can go in is what I've read and heard and that is alcohol was not involved. If it was, by all means withold the bonus.

Winslow specifically violated a clause in his contract about riding a motorcyle, he deserved to lose his bonus (and I believe Cleveland didn't actually take it back they considered it but opted to let him keep it), I don't think Calvin was violating a specific clause, it was an accident. A stupid one for sure, but an accident.