Cardinals not paying Pace's salary

[joeshmo]

Signing bonus and his contract are 2 seperate entities.

Signing bonus=just that, a payment made to sign his contract. He's already fulfilled that. No matter what he's already met the stipulations for his signing bonus. Now, if he did something to "unsign" his name, ala Ricky Williams, then they should get the bonus back. Otherwise it's untouchable.

Regular salary=this is where they can freely withhold payments. This contract is for him to be on the field and participating in football like activities. Since he's not playing he's not living up to his end of the contract, therefore freeing the team from their obligation to pay him.

This is why signing bonuses are considered gauranteed money. That payment is for nothing other than writing your name on the dotted line. Once you've done that you've earned that money, period.

Wrong. There is no such thing as gauranteed money, none. That is a term way overused by the media. A signing bonus is a "In Good Faith" of "Up Front money" that can be taken back if certian stipulations are not met or rules are broken in the contract. This is what the players sign and the players union has agreed to in the collective bargianing agreement.

A signing bonus is for signing the contract and a promise by the player to keep in line with the contract parameters.

 

[clif]

Signing bonus and his contract are 2 seperate entities.

Signing bonus=just that, a payment made to sign his contract. He's already fulfilled that. No matter what he's already met the stipulations for his signing bonus. Now, if he did something to "unsign" his name, ala Ricky Williams, then they should get the bonus back. Otherwise it's untouchable.

Regular salary=this is where they can freely withhold payments. This contract is for him to be on the field and participating in football like activities. Since he's not playing he's not living up to his end of the contract, therefore freeing the team from their obligation to pay him.

This is why signing bonuses are considered gauranteed money. That payment is for nothing other than writing your name on the dotted line. Once you've done that you've earned that money, period.

This can't possibly be right. Why would the Browns be allowed to try to recoup signing bonus? How about the Eagles for TO, or the Dolphins for Ricky, or the Bucs for McCardell?

 

[Assface]

This can't possibly be right. Why would the Browns be allowed to try to recoup signing bonus? How about the Eagles for TO, or the Dolphins for Ricky, or the Bucs for McCardell?

First off, I don't want to try to sound like an expert. Ouchie is a lawyer and would have the best authority on this.

The way I see it though...for TO and Winslow they had clauses specifically written in to their contracts. They agreed in advance to their signing bonuses being fair game and willfuly violated them. Ricky tried to reneg on his contract, as I said in essence trying to "unsign" his name. I'm not familiar with the McCardell situation.b

 

[joeshmo]

First off, I don't want to try to sound like an expert. Ouchie is a lawyer and would have the best authority on this.

That is just it. Player contracts are very big and long, plus the team and the player have to sign on to the CBA contract as well. There are many clauses and stipulations in them that we dont even see the light of day on. And one of those clauses are injuries that occur off of the football field and the money(up front and base) that the team may be able to get back in those situations

 

[joeshmo]

Let me just say that allthough I completely agree with the Cards getting money back and believe it to be in their right to do so, I dont think this is the right situation to do so. Or at least the amount of it. I agree they should not pay him for games missed, that is already a pretty good slap on the wrist, but to make a big deal about 250K of his prorated bonus, is just silly. But I dont know the complete story so I will leave it at that.

 

[Russ Smith]

Let me just say that allthough I completely agree with the Cards getting money back and believe it to be in their right to do so, I dont think this is the right situation to do so. Or at least the amount of it. I agree they should not pay him for games missed, that is already a pretty good slap on the wrist, but to make a big deal about 250K of his prorated bonus, is just silly. But I dont know the complete story so I will leave it at that.

I think that's what myself, Pariah, Assface, Ryan and LV are all saying, take his salary sure he can't play. But don't take the bonus while you may be allowed to do it, you don't HAVE to do it.

As Conrad said in a few months when we're trying to sign a big DT or a big OL the last thing we want is KC's GM telling the guy "you can't seriously want to sign with Arizona, did you see what they did to Calvin Pace?" Right or wrong the perception is we're a cheap franchise, and the only way to change that perception is by actions. We're on the right path but to me this is such a small amount of money to the Cards it's not worth the potential bad rep.

 

[Ryanwb]

First off, I don't want to try to sound like an expert.

You should just preface all your threads with this statement.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

I think that's what myself, Pariah, Assface, Ryan and LV are all saying, take his salary sure he can't play. But don't take the bonus while you may be allowed to do it, you don't HAVE to do it.

As Conrad said in a few months when we're trying to sign a big DT or a big OL the last thing we want is KC's GM telling the guy "you can't seriously want to sign with Arizona, did you see what they did to Calvin Pace?" Right or wrong the perception is we're a cheap franchise, and the only way to change that perception is by actions. We're on the right path but to me this is such a small amount of money to the Cards it's not worth the potential bad rep.

So you are suggesting that Steve Hutchinson (or whatever sought after FA) will not sign here because Calvin Pace got a portion of his Bonus recouped??

You don't think, Hutchinson, as a veteran will say, "Good for them, I don't want to play for an orginazation that blindly rewards their players for not acting professional."

This actually COULD work for them. I know that kind of takes away from the Bidwill Bashing, just offering an alternative thinking.

 

[jefftheshark]

While I feel sorry for the guy, I think that the Cards had already made the decision that he was gone. Now if he signs with someone else, the Cards are in line to get $250 K of his new bonus money. If he stays (which is a possiblity), they have leverage on any new re-signing bonus.

They can always back off their stance, if the situation dictated, or if they take too much heat from the media (i.e. Gedney).

The Shark

 

[Assface]

You should just preface all your threads with this statement.

Why, some things I am an expert on, like watching porn and fartng, which is what most of my threads are about.

 

[Russ Smith]

So you are suggesting that Steve Hutchinson (or whatever sought after FA) will not sign here because Calvin Pace got a portion of his Bonus recouped??

You don't think, Hutchinson, as a veteran will say, "Good for them, I don't want to play for an orginazation that blindly rewards their players for not acting professional."

This actually COULD work for them. I know that kind of takes away from the Bidwill Bashing, just offering an alternative thinking.

To be frank I don't think NFL players think that way at all. I'm sure there are a ton of NFL players thrilled with the way the Eagles have handled TO, but I doubt many are going to be thrilled with the way we handle Pace, or the way we handled Chris Gedney etc. The Cards have a reputation to live down.

So do I think denying Pace part of his bonus is going to impress Steve Hutchinson, no.

I think people forget the Cards have been around a lot longer than ARizona, there's years and years of history they have to counteract when they pursue FA's who are told by everyone else you don't want to sign there.

That was one reason I was so thrilled we stepped up and gave Quan a new deal, it showed a commitment to a player that by rule we COULD have continued to pay off his rookie contract.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

So you are suggesting that Steve Hutchinson (or whatever sought after FA) will not sign here because Calvin Pace got a portion of his Bonus recouped??

You don't think, Hutchinson, as a veteran will say, "Good for them, I don't want to play for an orginazation that blindly rewards their players for not acting professional."

This actually COULD work for them. I know that kind of takes away from the Bidwill Bashing, just offering an alternative thinking.

I dont buy that for one second. It is hard enough trying to get FA here nitpicking over a prorated signing bonus is just a sad state of affiars and furthers the perception of a "cheap franchise"

Sometimes you have to do what is best for the long term of an organization and stop being so shortsighted, which is what I think the Cards are doing here..Being shortsighted

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Eh, now we are just arguing about things that may or may not happen in the future. If FAs continue to come in and out, receive contract offers, and not sign them, then obviously we botched this.

Green has kind of a tough guy persona to uphold, and this fits right in to it. Some players like it, some hate it. I wonder even how big of a story this is around the league anyway?? I bet most NFL fans are like Calvin Who??

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Look, I don't want it to seem like I have a personal thing against him. I can see from your insight that this is a little more personal for you as you may know him on that level. I personally like Pace and the abilities he brings to the table. You have to admit that he has not always portrayed the right attitude while he has been a cardinal. I can't comment on his days at Wake, because I didn't follow him then.

As for the missing time working out, I was talking about last year. I agree that he seemed to be getting his stuff worked out this year, but this incident just wreaks of a bigger problem and that is a pattern of not always making the right decision. It is unfortunate, but there is a pattern developing.

Yeah I know you dont "not like him" I just dont see the pattern you are talking about. I can tell you that you are spot on on one thing. His first year about not working out. Happens to a lot of rookies. Enjoying the money, freedom, and not committing himself to an off season program. Thats a big adjustment from college.

I think the improvements and hard work he put in this year were really paying off and I think he will be a solid NFL player. I was hoping it would be for the Cards, I doubt that is going to happen now.

We will see what happens, but it is kinda sad to lose someone over this type of , what I consider, relativly minor, incident.

 

[Russ Smith]

Eh, now we are just arguing about things that may or may not happen in the future. If FAs continue to come in and out, receive contract offers, and not sign them, then obviously we botched this.

Green has kind of a tough guy persona to uphold, and this fits right in to it. Some players like it, some hate it. I wonder even how big of a story this is around the league anyway?? I bet most NFL fans are like Calvin Who??

Except for apparently Steve Hutchinson

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Eh, now we are just arguing about things that may or may not happen in the future. If FAs continue to come in and out, receive contract offers, and not sign them, then obviously we botched this.

Green has kind of a tough guy persona to uphold, and this fits right in to it. Some players like it, some hate it. I wonder even how big of a story this is around the league anyway?? I bet most NFL fans are like Calvin Who??

Players know other player by way of agents mostly. I dont think any player is sitting there saying "look what they did to Calvin Pace". But I guarantee you all agents are very very aware of what is going on here. And they WILL remind their clients come FA time. Thats just the way it works.

 

[conraddobler]

So you are suggesting that Steve Hutchinson (or whatever sought after FA) will not sign here because Calvin Pace got a portion of his Bonus recouped??

You don't think, Hutchinson, as a veteran will say, "Good for them, I don't want to play for an orginazation that blindly rewards their players for not acting professional."

This actually COULD work for them. I know that kind of takes away from the Bidwill Bashing, just offering an alternative thinking.

I'd think most of them have seen weird things happen and if I am picking between two relatively equal suitors then things like this could easily decide it.

For instance, if I am picking between here and Cleveland then I know they could have easily popped K2 for the bonus back but they didn't.

Or I could choose the Cardinals and know if I do anything stupid I have to give it back 100% based on past occurances.

Knowing how things go if its all equal it'd take a lot more money to sign with AZ over Cleveland, A LOT!

It isn't coincidence that we get tons of mercs this way. The money finally does the trick and you get for the most part a money player out of the deal.

It's not a tough concept to figure out, it's not like our history is replete with people willingly signing here, no it's like pulling teeth on average and there is a reason for that.

Berry was a wonderful exception to the rule and looked as if we had turned the corner.

I will grant everyone that the team is different now but we are about the only ones in the world that know that, to the rest of the world we look like the same old Cardinals.

 

[Sandan]

For instance, if I am picking between here and Cleveland then I know they could have easily popped K2 for the bonus back but they didn't.

Yes they did ask for it back. They just gave him a chance to earn most of it back.

Yes they did, if you want us to think that you aren't leading with a 'Bidwill's are cheap' mindset. they don't misrepresent other teams in what appears to be an effort to make the Cardinals look cheap.

I don't know if you intent this or not but it comes acrosss loud and clear

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Yes they did ask for it back. They just gave him a chance to earn most of it back.

Yes they did, if you want us to think that you aren't leading with a 'Bidwill's are cheap' mindset. they don't misrepresent other teams in what appears to be an effort to make the Cardinals look cheap.

I don't know if you intent this or not but it comes acrosss loud and clear

Nidan...as stated before this organization, whether right or wrong, has a perception of being cheap. You can try to convince all of us that it isnt the case, but it is.

No one is saying that the Cardinals dont have the right to take all the money back. What most of us are saying is that to go after a prorated portion of the signing bonus AFTER you have already taken away the game checks, is very, well cheapish . (if that is a word) And furthers the perception of the AZ Cardinals being a cheap, money grubbing franchise.

Additonally, I am pretty sure Paces agent is not very happy with the Cards taking back the signing bonus money and he will make sure the rest of his clients/reps heres about it!

 

[clif]

I get what you guys are saying, but why is it ok for the Eagles to try and take money back from TO? Are they not being petty in trying to take back bonus money even though the suspension will already cost him salary?

Let's compare the situations and how they adversly affect the 'team'.

TO talks alot.. says some dumb stuff.. does some dumb things ... BUT he still produces. He is still on the field every week making plays, blocking, etc.


Calvin Pace.. gets injured and is no longer able to help the team on the field in any way this year.

Why is it Ok to take TO's money but not Calvin Pace's? You can tell me how much of an ass TO is all you want, but his actions did not hurt the team on the field as did this situation with Pace.

This again is a situation where the Cards were doing something that is fairly common to do, but they would be the only ones considered 'cheap'.

If I'm not mistaken didn't the Bucs also try to get money back from Keyshawn?
I

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Yes they did ask for it back. They just gave him a chance to earn most of it back.

Yes they did, if you want us to think that you aren't leading with a 'Bidwill's are cheap' mindset. they don't misrepresent other teams in what appears to be an effort to make the Cardinals look cheap.

I don't know if you intent this or not but it comes acrosss loud and clear

Nidan your point is valid. But you cannot expect 2 years to make up for 20. The Cardinals have the stereotype of being cheap. They followed that stereotype for a LOOOONG time. Are they currently acting like they are cheap? Nope. But as I stated 2 years don't make up for 20.



On to other things.

FIRST, ANY NFL TEAM takes back money if a player doesn't hold up to the contract signed. The Cardinals taking back money from Pace isn't anything new. The Patriots do it, the Steelers do it, etc., etc.

It is simple logic.

Pace gets paid to play football. Pace cannot play football. Pace cannot get paid.

The dumb@ss fell out a FRICKIN WINDOW! I wouldn't pay his clumsy, stupid butt a dime either.

 

[Avondale_Larry]

Russ, I know that.

I was trying to come up with an analogy that made sense.

The point was that his body [in large part] is what he brings to the table along with experience. In our cases few of us have such a responsiblity.

I think I heard the military does

The military analogy is dead on.

Some military folks collect enlistment and reenlistment bonuses.

Some of these people occasionally do incredibly stupid stuff and get their ass kicked out. The bonuses are recouped when this happens.

An example a few years ago when I was stationed in Germany:

A guy went home on leave to the States. He decided to drive from San Diego to Houston by himself, non-stop.

He fell asleep at the wheel (of course) and was in a pretty serious accident.

The military paid for his hospitalization, and made a "line of duty" determination. They decided what the Airman did was negligent. (We are restricted to 400 miles a day solo driving.) He crashed after over 1000 non-stop miles behind him at about 3 AM. Since he was no longer fit for duty because of his injuries, he was separated from service, and made to pay back the pro-rated portion of his enlistment bonus.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. We're talking about a kid that makes less than $25K/year, and the bonus was probably $15K.

If it's reasonable for a kid falling asleep on the road trying to go see his girlfriend, it's sure as hell reasonable for a millionaire athlete getting drunk and wrestling himself into a season-ending injury.

 

[Russ Smith]

If it's reasonable for a kid falling asleep on the road trying to go see his girlfriend, it's sure as hell reasonable for a millionaire athlete getting drunk and wrestling himself into a season-ending injury.

And if Pace was drunk that'd be true but every report I've read says alcohol was not involved. Nidan was just making an example, not saying Pace was drunk.

 

[Sandan]

Neither was the serviceman mentioned.

They both just did something really stupid

 

[conraddobler]

Nidan, it's more perception than reality.

The reality is that a team like the Patriots can do the same exact thing the Cardinals just did and no one will think twice about it.

The Cardinals do it and it just reinforces the former reputation, well earned in the past, of being cheap.

It's politics NFL style and when you have a reputation as one thing, you usually counter it by going to the other extreme.

Now it's the Bidwill's team and they can do what they want but they can't simultaneously have it both ways.

I don't think Michael is cheap or the team now is cheap, frugal maybe out of necessity but not cheap.

Do you really think anyone outside of AZ really takes the time to tell the difference though? I don't.