Cardinals Still Seeking True Identity

[ASUCHRIS]

I don't think anyone wants Kurt throwing 40 times a game. He hasn't thrown 20 times in a game yet. I think around 30 would be fine. Let Kurt come out firing, establish a lead, and then use Edge as a grinder at the end, ala San Fran.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't think anyone wants Kurt throwing 40 times a game. He hasn't thrown 20 times in a game yet. I think around 30 would be fine. Let Kurt come out firing, establish a lead, and then use Edge as a grinder at the end, ala San Fran.

he hasn't thrown 20 times in a game yet? He's throw 30, 24 and 30 times so far, we've been winning the battle of the turnovers, won our first two games by a combined 31 points and lost a game when we had turnovers. I think that's a pretty good formula so far.

I think if we come out with Kurt firing, Wiz is afraid the turnovers come early, which puts us in a hole and then we can't do anything but pass, and while the points may start going up, so will the turnovers and then, we're back to what we were last year - 8-8.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It's very rare that anyone would want any QB throwing 40 times a game or more... That would suggest there is a serious imbalance in the offense.
History shows that to win, consistently and particularly on the road, you MUST be able to run the ball (particularly when you NEED to run the ball - short yardage plays and late in the game).
Edge is averaging 82 yards a game thus far with a 4 yard per carry average. IMHO, given what I've seen thus far, there are many backs in the NFL that would have those numbers much closer, if not above 100 yards per game and 4.7 - 5 yards per carry.

And, the pass the Fitz was damm near picture perfect. Fitz did not have to look back nor did he have to slow down his stride. It was a beautiful throw to a receiver who ran the perfect route...

 

[ASUCHRIS]

he hasn't thrown 20 times in a game yet? He's throw 30, 24 and 30 times so far, we've been winning the battle of the turnovers, won our first two games by a combined 31 points and lost a game when we had turnovers. I think that's a pretty good formula so far.

I think if we come out with Kurt firing, Wiz is afraid the turnovers come early, which puts us in a hole and then we can't do anything but pass, and while the points may start going up, so will the turnovers and then, we're back to what we were last year - 8-8.

I was looking at completions....Don't get me wrong, I think we still need to run, and mix it in early, but have Warner run the no huddle, force opponents to put out extra personnel to stop the pass. It doesn't need to be a traditional no huddle, but similar to what we've done earlier in the season.

 

[Longcolts]

Kurt Warner is all about chemistry...he has plenty of it with Q and Fitz because he's so familiar with them.

How many times did Warner throw to DRC in practice?

He and Breaston have been making so chemistry thus far, but it's not completely unusual for a QB to sometimes underthrow a receiver.

The deep pass he threw to Fitz was picture perfect.

but the difference in this case is Breaston was covered underneath and not over the top. Warner said himself that he tried to be to perfect and under threw him.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I remember hearing Kurt say that he was afraid of overthrowing DRC in San Fran, and then he under throws Breaston on a fly pattern. He needs to get it in his head that they have the speed to get there. The long pass to Larry wasn't a speed pattern, basically because Fitz doesn't have that kind of speed.

He did? I'd be much more worried about underthrowing someone with 4.35 speed.

That's an interesting comment to say the least.

 

[Longcolts]

He did? I'd be much more worried about underthrowing someone with 4.35 speed.

That's an interesting comment to say the least.

I thought so too. But I'm really not sure how often they practiced that play and maybe he just didn't have a good read on how fast DRC is. Wish I could provide a link but it was on the air that he said it.

 

[Stout]

i really think it's pretty simple why we're not throwing 40 times a game - Whiz is limiting the chances of turnovers with a QB who the more you see of him, the more you see turnovers. Wiz comes from the Pittsburg mentality of winning the battle of turnovers which will put you in the best position to win the game, problem is, he doesn't have a defense that generates those turnovers like Pitt did and he doesn't have the absolute smash-mouth running game that he had in Pitt, so he's playing some kind of hybrid to limit mistakes, keep his team in games and win 'em at the end. Basically, I think he's playing the hand he's been dealt until he gets new cards (no pun intended) which would be a QB he can inherently trust with the ball, a DC who knows what he's doing or a running game that can't be stopped and truth be told, he doesn't even need all of them, he just needs one to drop, but I don't believe he thinks he has that... man, this is just a ramble at this point.

you want Warner throwing the ball 40 times a game and we're going to lose more ball games than we win.

Pittsburgh has an 'H' at the end of it, Cheese. Damn you.

 

[BigRedArk]

Mitch...Great Write up...Better than most Sports Networks...And I agree with 98% of what you say.

I do think the reason why Whis hasn't opened it up to much...Is because of what went on with the QB situation. I hope no one here thinks I am drudging that back up, but I feel Whis made a decision to Start Warner and there are alot of fans that were shocked by that. Also I think management wanted Leinart for a few reasons (For a later debate). But he now must sink or swim with Warner...and he doesn't want to start out going full bomb attack and have him throwing 40 times a game. I think we would be better off, but you have to realize Denny Green brought in Warner to do that. Throw alot and attack the defenses...and we had Q and Fitz, and also BJ. And it really never worked. If Warner struggles then his(Coach Whiz) decision of starting him looks bad. We could score 30 a game, but if you remember last years San Fran game. we put up 30 points by throwing all around the place and yet still lost 36-30 to a fairly bad team.

Strongly disagree. Whis isn't Denny Green. He came from the Pittsburgh Steelers not the Minnesota Vikings who were not afraid to throw the ball who also almost and should have gone to the Super Bowl in 1998 with a potent air attack. Whis also doesn't go through OL coaches and Offensive Coordinators like the Federal Govt goes through dollar bills either. He has brought stability to the coaching staff. I will give Cardinal management the benefit of the doubt as to knowing the difference between DG and KW.

KW's decision to start Warner was not shocking in that ML just doesn't look like he is ready to take the reigns for whatever reason. There really is very little basis to second guess him on that decision. Warner has his strengths and weaknesses qualities as a QB and so does ML. Warner's strenghts far outweigh his weaknesses compared to ML. I don't hear much second guessing of his decision at this point. You seem to suggest that there is some or will be some down the road if we don't continue to win. I just don't see that and I wanted ML to win the job hands down because he is younger and might give us stability at the QB position for a long time.

 

[az1965]

Good analysis, Mitch... Agree on everything!

 

[CARDINALIS]

Thanks for a very insightful analysis. I think a lot of coaches, like a lot of managers in the business world, are control freaks who underestimate the abilities of people under their control. These coaches love to keep the game close until the fourth quarter before taking the handcuffs off their skilled players when the game could be won a lot earlier.

 

[earthsci]

Thanks for a very insightful analysis. I think a lot of coaches, like a lot of managers in the business world, are control freaks who underestimate the abilities of people under their control. These coaches love to keep the game close until the fourth quarter before taking the handcuffs off their skilled players when the game could be won a lot earlier.

5 posts in 4 years? Quick..under my avatar click the "Donate" link and donate the $1000 in ASFN Bucks that you have. You aren't using them and they will go to waste!

 

[CARDINALIS]

earthsci: most of your posts are just noise to boost your post count. A lot of members here enjoy reading the contributions of informed people like Mitch, Harry among others. Some of us are not pundits of football that can analyze the game to the depths that others on this forum can.

 

[earthsci]

earthsci: most of your posts are just noise to boost your post count. A lot of members here enjoy reading the contributions of informed people like Mitch, Harry among others. Some of us are not pundits of football that can analyze the game to the depths that others on this forum can.

Yeah, I can see how you could say that since I've all of 4,900 posts and I only joined..oh yeah, the day after this board started.

My post wasn't meant to insult. It was in fun but I guess you don't understand that since you were insulting. Stay classy.

Now we can all go back to reading "The Harry and Mitch Opinion Board".

 

[john h]

Good stuff Mitch!

I have to ask how long that took you?

I agree with most of what you say. My condensed version is we are definitely a passing team and not a running team. We do not have the home run threat at RB. We have perhaps the two best receivers on one team in the NFL and Warner who is very experienced and can change play calls at the line better than our OC. My perception was we tried to be a smash mouth running team without the personnel to do such. We can pass on anyone with our personnel. I also think Warner was restricted as to changing the plays calls at the line of scrimmage in this game. Normally you see him making changes on half the plays after he looks over the defense. Not in this game. He also appeared to be angry much of the game and was talking to the coaches a lot. My guess is he wanted to pass more. 96 yds by James looks good but if it does not score TD's it means jack. We are not Pittsburgh and do not have the personnel to be Pittsburgh.

We are a high powered passing team and that is how we have won. How many running TD's do we have? I think Boldin already has 4 passing TD's and I do not know how many Fitz has.

I think Whiz must have lost it when he made that punting call with 2.5 minutes left in the game near the 50 yd line. I can think of no other explanation. I feel confident every player on that team knew we had to go for 4 yds at that point. Has Whiz given any explanation on radio or Tv interviews that made any sense?

Any team facing us is going to line up to stop Fitz and Boldin and the more James runs the better they like it.

 

[Mitch]

I think Whiz must have lost it when he made that punting call with 2.5 minutes left in the game near the 50 yd line. I can think of no other explanation. I feel confident every player on that team knew we had to go for 4 yds at that point. Has Whiz given any explanation on radio or Tv interviews that made any sense?[/B]

You know, John, I thought the same thing about Whiz losing it...

It's interesting that in his post-game comments he said that the team sucked in this game the way it did in other East coast games last year...

Does anyone else find this comment a little dubious?

Sure the Cardinals were not clicking on all cylinders as they were versus the Dolphins...BUT...the game was still highly competitive--back and forth-- (on the road versus a 2007 playoff team and a difficult environment)...and the outcome of the game was still very much undetermined with 2:32 left...

It almost seemed to me like Whiz was pissed at the offense, and maybe even with Warner...as coaches sometimes get with their teams...and out of frustration...he decided to punt the ball...

Thus, I think you are right when you said he lost it...

There definitely seems like there's some sort of friction between Whiz and Warner...probably because Whiz knows Warner wants to open the offense up, and Whiz want to smashmouth it.

How about the way each of them reacted to the delay of game penalty?

Warner was livid...as he should have been...Whiz was far less demonstrative, when he had every right to vehemently plead his case about the fact that he would have called timeout from the sidelines if it was necessary.

Wonder if Warner not only is frustrated with the conservative play calling, but also still feeling the frustration of Whiz's off-season handling of the QB situation.

Maybe there's more to Q's disdain for Whiz...maybe he too is feeling stifled by the conservative play calling in addition to Whiz's meddling with the contract negotiations, or lack thereof.

Regardless...it's no coincidence that Warner said after the game what all of us were feeling, that he was totally surprised that the coaches weren't going to go for it on 4th and 4.

This is something a QB should know before hand because if Warner had known Whiz would punt, maybe he would have made a more urgent attempt to convert the third down play.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think Whiz must have lost it when he made that punting call with 2.5 minutes left in the game near the 50 yd line. I can think of no other explanation. I feel confident every player on that team knew we had to go for 4 yds at that point. Has Whiz given any explanation on radio or Tv interviews that made any sense?[/b]

You know, John, I thought the same thing about Whiz losing it...

It's interesting that in his post-game comments he said that the team sucked in this game the way it did in other East coast games last year...

Does anyone else find this comment a little dubious?

Sure the Cardinals were not clicking on all cylinders as they were versus the Dolphins...BUT...the game was still highly competitive--back and forth-- (on the road versus a 2007 playoff team and a difficult environment)...and the outcome of the game was still very much undetermined with 2:32 left...

It almost seemed to me like Whiz was pissed at the offense, and maybe even with Warner...as coaches sometimes get with their teams...and out of frustration...he decided to punt the ball...

Thus, I think you are right when you said he lost it...

There definitely seems like there's some sort of friction between Whiz and Warner...probably because Whiz knows Warner wants to open the offense up, and Whiz want to smashmouth it.

How about the way each of them reacted to the delay of game penalty?

Warner was livid...as he should have been...Whiz was far less demonstrative, when he had every right to vehemently plead his case about the fact that he would have called timeout from the sidelines if it was necessary.

Wonder if Warner not only is frustrated with the conservative play calling, but also still feeling the frustration of Whiz's off-season handling of the QB situation.

Maybe there's more to Q's disdain for Whiz...maybe he too is feeling stifled by the conservative play calling in addition to Whiz's meddling with the contract negotiations, or lack thereof.

Regardless...it's no coincidence that Warner said after the game what all of us were feeling, that he was totally surprised that the coaches weren't going to go for it on 4th and 4.

This is something a QB should know before hand because if Warner had known Whiz would punt, maybe he would have made a more urgent attempt to convert the third down play.

Mitch - I love your stuff but Q, Warner, and everyone else be damned. This is Wiz's team and I trust in him enough to have the final say in what they want to do and the direction. Sure he should have gone for it on 4th and 4 in hindsight. But I can guarantee you 22 of 32 NFL coaches would have done the same thing. He was just following the coaching 101 handbook and if they would have gone for it and didn't pick it up we would be crucifying him for not having faith in the defense.

Do you remember the scores of games when we use to just fling it? Its not the right way to play - especially when you have a QB with a looong history of turning the ball over. Thats why I believe he really WANTED Matt to win the job - because he trusts him with the ball more. And I can't fault him for that. The Rams and Giants all came to the same conclusion too.

In the Dolphins game we are at home against an inferior team. If we turn the ball over a couple times we can probably still win that game. So its still safe to throw it around the field. Miami doesn't have the defensive playmakers to really make them pay.

Not against Washington and on the road. If we were flinging it we might have lost the game 37 - 24. Did you see what Washington did the one time they had a short field?

I know we can all look back and say its a bad decision. And maybe without a running back that anyone is actually scared of its folly. But I don't fault the premise and think ultimately when he gets more of his types of players, it will pay off.

They need to find a balance and hopefully they will. But I cant for the life of me understand why people would take issue with Wiz being gun shy with Warner - and so far the results have been pretty dang good based on the performances of our two wins and how those teams looked last week.

If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it.

Trust in Wiz boys. The rebirth of Warner is BECAUSE of Wiz - not in spite of him.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch - I love your stuff but Q, Warner, and everyone else be damned. This is Wiz's team and I trust in him enough to have the final say in what they want to do and the direction. Sure he should have gone for it on 4th and 4 in hindsight. But I can guarantee you 22 of 32 NFL coaches would have done the same thing. He was just following the coaching 101 handbook and if they would have gone for it and didn't pick it up we would be crucifying him for not having faith in the defense.

Do you remember the scores of games when we use to just fling it? Its not the right way to play - especially when you have a QB with a looong history of turning the ball over. Thats why I believe he really WANTED Matt to win the job - because he trusts him with the ball more. And I can't fault him for that. The Rams and Giants all came to the same conclusion too.

In the Dolphins game we are at home against an inferior team. If we turn the ball over a couple times we can probably still win that game. So its still safe to throw it around the field. Miami doesn't have the defensive playmakers to really make them pay.

Not against Washington and on the road. If we were flinging it we might have lost the game 37 - 24. Did you see what Washington did the one time they had a short field?

I know we can all look back and say its a bad decision. And maybe without a running back that anyone is actually scared of its folly. But I don't fault the premise and think ultimately when he gets more of his types of players, it will pay off.

They need to find a balance and hopefully they will. But I cant for the life of me understand why people would take issue with Wiz being gun shy with Warner - and so far the results have been pretty dang good based on the performances of our two wins and how those teams looked last week.

If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it.

Trust in Wiz boys. The rebirth of Warner is BECAUSE of Wiz - not in spite of him.

Honestly, AF, I'd like to agree with you, but I believe that Warner and Q have a better sense of what the identity of this offense should be.

Look at it this way: this offense has three legitmate Pro Bowl players in Boldin, Fitzgerald and Warner...is anyone else even close?

Playing 3-4 yards and a cloud of dust football with this personnel is like the Lakers feeding Andrew Bynam on the post over and over, while Kobe sits on the perimeter. Sorry, but Kobe Bryant is going to win the games, not Andrew Bynam. Also, when Kobe starts going off, the other team gets nervous and demoralized. Look at how the Niners reacted when Q started lighting them up...

Anquan Boldin was thrown to 3 times in this game...heck the Cardinal practically had as many trick plays (Urban's pass and Rolle's hitch screen).

The Cardinals' coaches reaction to Q getting pressed was to run the ball and throw to other people.

This reaction is one of the major reasons why the Cardinals lost that game. The reaction played right into DC Greg Blache's hand...as did the absurd decision to punt the ball with 2:32 left.

I will say this...if Warner was given the autonomy to call the plays himself, this offense would be a top three offense in the NFL. The coaches are getting in the way.

I'll even tell you what Warner would have done...because he is a master at beating press man coverage. He would have isolated Q to one side and thrown him fades until the Redskins brought the safety over and then he would have exploited the other side of the field with Fitz and Patrick.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I will say this...if Warner was given the autonomy to call the plays himself, this offense would be a top three offense in the NFL. The coaches are getting in the way.

And our record would be 6-10 and he would have broken the record for most turnovers in a season.

 

[Sandan]

Wow, what a write up.

Can we get Mitch set up to publish to the front page?!?

I keep trying

 

[jefftheshark]

Mitch,

Great write-up, although for the comfort of the reader, the addition of an intermission would be nice.

But I have a question I didn't see addressed by anyone else in this thread. The question is, is Warner being asked to do anything that Leinart couldn't do, and if he isn't, isn't that a waste of Warner's talents? And further, if he isn't, why did Whiz put the team and its fans through the headache of a QB controversy, and just stick with Leinart?

I'll hang up and listen to your response off the air.

JTS

 

[Mitch]

Mitch,

Great write-up, although for the comfort of the reader, the addition of an intermission would be nice.

But I have a question I didn't see addressed by anyone else in this thread. The question is, is Warner being asked to do anything that Leinart couldn't do, and if he isn't, isn't that a waste of Warner's talents? And further, if he isn't, why did Whiz put the team and its fans through the headache of a QB controversy, and just stick with Leinart?

I'll hang up and listen to your response off the air.

JTS

Hi Jeff:

First of all, you didn't paraphrase my entire post in three tidy JTS quips!
What's up with that?

Warner is making the basic throws that Leinart doesn't make just yet because Leinart does not have as strong an arm and, to compound matters, his timing and his delivery are slower...although in the last pre-season game Leinart's delivery look a lot crisper...which is good.

If what you mean is....can Leinart hand the ball off to Edge just as well as Warner???, you've got a real point...and thus I understand your confusion.

The whole QB controversy was poorly handled right from the start...and the Cardinals to some degree are still playing catch up.

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

Whiz' is the BEST HC we've had since Coryell!!

"Nuff said!

 

[bg7brd]

If Warner completed that pass to Breaston we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[john h]

Thanks, Chris.

Imagine this: if Q is having trouble with a big physical corner like Springs, what I would do is put him in the backfield, in a spread formation (Fitz wide left, Doucet in the left slot, Breaston in the right slot and Urban wide right) and Warner in the shotgun.

How would anyone defend this?

They would have to go zone, IMO.

If not, who covers Q?

The middle linebacker?

If it's the MLB, slip Q right at him and have him deke hard one way and cut the other fopr easy completions and killer RACs...all day long.

If not the MLB, do they line up Shawn Springs at MLB?

Then what do they do with the MLB?

They's have to shift him over to play Doucet or Breaston in the slot.

Good luck with that.

Also, if they put Springs at MLB, how about running the ball with Q versus a spread out defense? Springs wouldn't hold up in the middle and Boldin would punish him if he ever got close.

This weekend we saw the breakout of the old Arkansas Offense when McFadden and Felix Jones were there. We called it the Wild Hog and the Pros are now calling it the Wildcat. The running back takes the direct snap from center about 8 yds behind the LOS. Some tmes the QB is split out and sometimes he elsewhere. The RB then can just run the ball, throw it out to the QB who may sit back to throw the ball or the QB may act like a wideout and run down the field. McFadden would often just hand it off to Felix Jones. Out of this formation Arkansas broke nearly every SEC running record on the books. The Coordinator was Lee who is now with Miami OC and he used it against New England with Ronnie Brown taking the snaps. He threw a TD and ran wild against New England. I think Lee was the innovator of this offense while he was at Arkansas. Some other team also used this offense this week. It may have been Oakland with McFadden. Anyway, the NFL is going to have to figure out how to counter this, Especially when you have a running back that can pass like McFadden or Ronnie Brown. McFadden had about 8 throwing TD's out of this formation and it was super effective when combined with a no huddle.