Does Keim Have The Guts to Trade Up In the First Round?

[oaken1]

Lol. I still am. I would be very happy if we came out of the draft with a stud D player at 15 & then trade back into the 1st for Lauletta. I was just saying I could see the Cards surprising everyone by trading up to #2 for Mayfield. If we get either Mayfield or Lauletta I would be happy.

why trade back into the first round for a fourth round QB?? The dude is already going to be over drafted when somebody picks him in the late second/early third because of all the hype

 

[GimmedaBall]

why trade back into the first round for a fourth round QB?? The dude is already going to be over drafted when somebody picks him in the late second/early third because of all the hype

You trade back into the first round for a fourth round QB for the same reason you trade to the top of the 1st round for a third round QB.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Did you ever see the bio on Walt Disney that was on PBS?

He loved to play with model trains and had his studio make a miniature train set big enough to carry humans that he could sit on and choo-choo around his home. From that came the concept of Disneyland.

(Last time I went it was so crowded it took hours to get on the 'best' rides. One man in line suffered a heat stroke and passed out in convulsions. A couple of kids thought he was a new ride and jumped on his back until paramedics arrived.)

I'm a professional artist with a masters in painting, I know the story of Disney well. The best story ever was when a little kid told him that he liked the way he drew Mickey Mouse and Disney replied he did not draw Mickey Mouse (which is actually the creation of another, Ub Iwerks). Then the little kid asked him if he drew another character and Disney said he did not. The little kid looked at him and said, "Mr. Disney, you do not do anything do you?"... which Disney replied jokingly "I guess not" lol

 

[Stout]

The difference is that you appear to want to be the GM and have SK do what you want. I am looking at his past draft history and the way SK assembles the roster and making my guess that he is not going to do a major trade up.

I am trying to figure out what SK will do----you are demanding that SK do what you want him to do.

I can't suffer to keep posting everything about draft history and the odds of success with such a move over-and-over. I don't want to sound like a broken record . . . a broken record . . . a broken record. . . a broken record.

There's a better chance that the Bradford-Glennon combo plus all the future draft picks in the bank will give us better results than an unknown NFL commodity minus all the future draft picks it will cost to get him.

Without our draft picks, we'll have no way to get cheap new talent on the team to support any QB that is on the roster.

If you want to aggressively jump from the cliff face to show your guts---fine. Chances are they will be in full view after you crash land on the rocks. I'm just glad SK doesn't have the same notion of 'guts' to run a team.

And have fun suffering losing records with a bad one-two vet QB combination. I'd rather have a chance at a real QB and not rely on never-has-been retreads.

 

[Solar7]

I think I understand why you're so hell-bent against us trying to get a franchise QB: you don't believe in the idea of a franchise QB. Granted, unless you get a top one, he won't be a ginormous difference. If you do get that top franchise QB, however, you're 100 percent wrong--they do turn you into a perennial contender. The all-time greats drag mediocre teams up to contenders just by being on the team. I get that you don't think it's a risk worth taking, but let's not pretend that we won't be perennial contenders if we do hit big on that risk.

I completely believe in the idea of a franchise QB - but that belief is tempered with the idea that I think there are very few franchise QBs, and that they are not as easy to get as "I'm gonna trade up for one." I think true franchise QBs are predicated on a hell of a lot of luck, the right system, and more. I also believe that with few exceptions (the Browns have been poor at this the past two years), teams don't just move away from franchise QBs at the top of the draft. If a team is willing to move past him, especially when they have a need at the position, it means the guy has a lot of warts. And at that point, when they have warts, it's not a good move to give up extra draft capital for him.

It's entirely possible that he doesn't rate any QBs worthy of the risk, but there's a huge difference between "not worth" the risk and won't be a franchise QB. I bet you he'd kill to have Darnold. Is he willing to trust that instinct, that he'd be a great QB? Absolutely not. And I'd give Keim a lot more credit for sticking to his guns if I ever thought, in a million years, he would be willing to ever take the plunge, but I don't. I think he could be the greatest QB prospect ever, by consensus, and Keim still wouldn't want to risk it. That's just who he is.

As someone who grew up in Vegas, I'm with him. I've been around too many people who have "risked it all" because they might have had an awesome weekend or been able to buy a new house, but walked away with nothing. The feeling of "hitting" is intoxicating, but you have to play it smart. In Keim's position, he's literally risking his livelihood, where his kids grow up, his lifelong career on another guy. A guy who could "break his hand answering the phone" and suddenly make the risked capital all useless.

As fans, yeah, we want to see the risk sometime. We want the wins, the flashy QB, the excitement of always contending. But we forget that this is definitely a business. One in which the stakes are extremely high for the people running it.

Yeah, and will you come back to gloat if we go 2-14 and 3-13? Will you be so happy that Keim has a 4-year contract then, or will you be calling for his ouster? Yuk it up, buddy; your support of Keim's QB passivity means you're going to deserve our suckiness this year and beyond. Be happy with Bradford and Glennon.

Dear God, those are our QBs. That's so very depressing.

That wasn't directed at me, but yeah, if we go 2-14 or 3-13, I'll come back to gloat - and say thank God we didn't give up our now #1 overall pick for a rookie QB that will mainly sit on the bench in year 1. If we go 2-14, or 3-13 and DID draft a QB, I'll be back to say "I told you so" for one post, and then headed to the bar to drink away my sorrows, because we'll be doomed to a lot of bad football for a long time in the desert.

 

[GimmedaBall]

And have fun suffering losing records with a bad one-two vet QB combination. I'd rather have a chance at a real QB and not rely on never-has-been retreads.

That's the challenge---do you gamble that a guy who has never played a down of NFL football is a real QB OR do you gamble that one of the retread QBs gets surrounded with enough talent to take us to the big game?

Time to relax Stout---enjoy the draft no matter what happens. You don't have a say in the matter anyway so might as well lower expectations and you might get what you want. A rookie QB bust and an empty draft pick pantry.

(Hoist a few of your favorite beverage then join Otis down at the Mayberry Jail---the key is hanging next to the door if Andy and Barney aren't around.)

 

[Stout]

I completely believe in the idea of a franchise QB - but that belief is tempered with the idea that I think there are very few franchise QBs, and that they are not as easy to get as "I'm gonna trade up for one." I think true franchise QBs are predicated on a hell of a lot of luck, the right system, and more. I also believe that with few exceptions (the Browns have been poor at this the past two years), teams don't just move away from franchise QBs at the top of the draft. If a team is willing to move past him, especially when they have a need at the position, it means the guy has a lot of warts. And at that point, when they have warts, it's not a good move to give up extra draft capital for him.



As someone who grew up in Vegas, I'm with him. I've been around too many people who have "risked it all" because they might have had an awesome weekend or been able to buy a new house, but walked away with nothing. The feeling of "hitting" is intoxicating, but you have to play it smart. In Keim's position, he's literally risking his livelihood, where his kids grow up, his lifelong career on another guy. A guy who could "break his hand answering the phone" and suddenly make the risked capital all useless.

As fans, yeah, we want to see the risk sometime. We want the wins, the flashy QB, the excitement of always contending. But we forget that this is definitely a business. One in which the stakes are extremely high for the people running it.



That wasn't directed at me, but yeah, if we go 2-14 or 3-13, I'll come back to gloat - and say thank God we didn't give up our now #1 overall pick for a rookie QB that will mainly sit on the bench in year 1. If we go 2-14, or 3-13 and DID draft a QB, I'll be back to say "I told you so" for one post, and then headed to the bar to drink away my sorrows, because we'll be doomed to a lot of bad football for a long time in the desert.

If that's how he's basing his decisions as a GM, he should definitely be fired. You can't function as a GM and only play it safe every time all the time; you'll never compile a winning roster. No chance. None. And he's not 100 percent like this. If he were this scared crapless as a GM, he wouldn't have traded for Jones or Palmer. The problem is, he's unwilling to risk anything--even a small bit of draft capital (see past drafts) to get a young star QBOF. THAT is worrying.

Also, what you're trying to say is, if we go your QB route (the one we've already gone) and fail, you were somehow right, and if we don't go your QB route and we fail, you were right. Ha, nice try, but really, that's a pathetic try, Solar You don't get to be right no matter. If we go 2-14 with those QBs, I'll expect you to admit your faith in Keim's "all in" QB strategy was completely misguided. You're all in with Keim and his plan, so...

That's the challenge---do you gamble that a guy who has never played a down of NFL football is a real QB OR do you gamble that one of the retread QBs gets surrounded with enough talent to take us to the big game?

Time to relax Stout---enjoy the draft no matter what happens. You don't have a say in the matter anyway so might as well lower expectations and you might get what you want. A rookie QB bust and an empty draft pick pantry.

(Hoist a few of your favorite beverage then join Otis down at the Mayberry Jail---the key is hanging next to the door if Andy and Barney aren't around.)

Actually, I'm not going to get fired up when we don't take a QBOF. I've known since we signed those two retreads that we weren't, so I've had plenty of time to come to terms with it. And I won't be watching live--I have to record it while I'm out at Infinity Wars. I expect I'll come back to find the board has blown up in some fashion or another.

Now LAST year, when Keim horrifically reached yet again in the first round, with the star safety from my home town on the board--I absolutely melted down. About as bad as when we overpaid the Saints to trade back in the 1st round.

 

[JeffGollin]

I think he is dynamic, but I have reservations to the extent of his ability as a full time back in my opinion

I recall something written about Barclay's so-called intangibles - leadership skills & clean living coupled with Badger-like football IQ.

Could this be why he's being rated so high?

 

[Solar7]

If that's how he's basing his decisions as a GM, he should definitely be fired. You can't function as a GM and only play it safe every time all the time; you'll never compile a winning roster. No chance. None. And he's not 100 percent like this. If he were this scared crapless as a GM, he wouldn't have traded for Jones or Palmer. The problem is, he's unwilling to risk anything--even a small bit of draft capital (see past drafts) to get a young star QBOF. THAT is worrying.

I don't think he's scared crapless at all, I think he's playing it smart. This entire thread is about him "not having the guts" though. And part of what factors into those big moves is partially maintaining his tenure as GM. The less bold moves he makes that could blow up in his face, the longer he's going to stay. Let's be honest, Jones & Palmer were really not "big" moves in the sense that he was giving away everything to acquire them. They were both reasonable deals for proven players. Even if Chandler Jones had come here and only gotten 5 sacks, would we have really bemoaned the loss of Cooper and a 2nd round pick? Not really.

But this "small amount of capital" thing doesn't make much sense. The Browns/Bills weren't going to take our 3rd rounder for us to move when they had offers for a 1st rounder on the table. I can agree with you that I'm unhappy that he hasn't taken a QB at any pick since Logan Thomas, but last year is really the only year it made sense for us to trade up for a guy, and we simply got outbid.

Also, what you're trying to say is, if we go your QB route (the one we've already gone) and fail, you were somehow right, and if we don't go your QB route and we fail, you were right. Ha, nice try, but really, that's a pathetic try, Solar You don't get to be right no matter. If we go 2-14 with those QBs, I'll expect you to admit your faith in Keim's "all in" QB strategy was completely misguided. You're all in with Keim and his plan, so...

Don't get me wrong here - I don't think this is a winning recipe. I think Glennon is bad, and I think Bradford won't be on the field enough to make a difference. I think we'll be picking in the top 5. But we'll be picking in the top 5 and have some hope in some young guys on the roster because we kept our picks. If we trade up, we're going to have Baker Mayfield and 2-3 years where we have to hope free agency fits our needs, or he'll be throwing to Brice Butler. Or paying through the nose for the equivalent of Jarvis Landry.

It might be a bad year now, but a bad year where 2-3 years down the line we'll be back to full strength and contending again.

 

[Stout]

Don't get me wrong here - I don't think this is a winning recipe. I think Glennon is bad, and I think Bradford won't be on the field enough to make a difference. I think we'll be picking in the top 5. But we'll be picking in the top 5 and have some hope in some young guys on the roster because we kept our picks. If we trade up, we're going to have Baker Mayfield and 2-3 years where we have to hope free agency fits our needs, or he'll be throwing to Brice Butler. Or paying through the nose for the equivalent of Jarvis Landry.

It might be a bad year now, but a bad year where 2-3 years down the line we'll be back to full strength and contending again.

I get what you're saying here. The way you couched it before was just in a way that said you would be right no matter what happens. The more I'm reading, the more I'm thinking you're just in the we'll be crap no matter what camp. And I can understand that.

 

[GimmedaBall]

So . . . for all those who want to make the trade up for a QB:

(1) Who is the guy you want? We've had plenty of time to slice and dice these guys----time to declare your choice.

(2) How much draft capital and/or players will you give to move up?

 

[HoodieBets]

So . . . for all those who want to make the trade up for a QB:

(1) Who is the guy you want? We've had plenty of time to slice and dice these guys----time to declare your choice.

(2) How much draft capital and/or players will you give to move up?

Rosen and it’s not close. 2 1st,2 2nd, next years 3rd and 5th


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GatorAZ]

Rosen and it’s not close. 2 1st,2 2nd, next years 3rd and 5th


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#2 for Mayfield

Peterson, #15, #45, 2019 1st

 

[TRW]

Rosen and it’s not close. 2 1st,2 2nd, next years 3rd and 5th


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Scary. Shoulder issue, concussion issue...he's a real gamble. And, I know, so is everyone else. I just don't like arm/shoulder issues in a QB or head trauma issues either.

 

[HoodieBets]

Scary. Shoulder issue, concussion issue...he's a real gamble. And, I know, so is everyone else. I just don't like arm/shoulder issues in a QB or head trauma issues either.

NFL protects QBs so hard unless he’s becomes wentz he shouldn’t have any head issues. He is just so much more polished and complete than any other guy coming out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jetstream Green]

So . . . for all those who want to make the trade up for a QB:

(1) Who is the guy you want? We've had plenty of time to slice and dice these guys----time to declare your choice.

(2) How much draft capital and/or players will you give to move up?

Baker Mayfield and I am willing to give them the farm, swindle the neighbor's properity and the first born for another Super Bowl birth, which I think Baker can offer but I do not like getting in lengthy discussions with you since you keep changing your avatar... I feel like I am getting ganged up on by multiple posters when it's actually only you lol

 

[TRW]

NFL protects QBs so hard unless he’s becomes wentz he shouldn’t have any head issues. He is just so much more polished and complete than any other guy coming out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh, he's talented, there's no doubt on that. I actually would be more concerned about the hits to his surgically repaired shoulder over the long term (especially behind the Cards' line)

 

[GimmedaBall]

Baker Mayfield and I am willing to give them the farm, swindle the neighbor's properity and the first born for another Super Bowl birth, which I think Baker can offer but I do not like getting in lengthy discussions with you since you keep changing your avatar... I feel like I am getting ganged up on by multiple posters when it's actually only you lol

I don't eat the same thing for dinner every day, try to change my socks at least once a week if they need it or not, and honor all those who never got the ball in sandlot football by posting their picture as my avatar.

So far, 1 for Rosen and 2 for Mayfield.

PS You never mentioned if you saw the Walt Disney bio on PBS.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I don't eat the same thing for dinner every day, try to change my socks at least once a week if they need it or not, and honor all those who never got the ball in sandlot football by posting their picture as my avatar.

So far, 1 for Rosen and 2 for Mayfield.

PS You never mentioned if you saw the Walt Disney bio on PBS.

Did not but read more than a few books on him

 

[Stout]

So . . . for all those who want to make the trade up for a QB:

(1) Who is the guy you want? We've had plenty of time to slice and dice these guys----time to declare your choice.

(2) How much draft capital and/or players will you give to move up?

Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, in that order. As for what to give up? There's no telling, because we don't know what pick or what position or what player we're talking about.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, in that order. As for what to give up? There's no telling, because we don't know what pick or what position or what player we're talking about.

For the goal of coming up with a tally, what would be the maximum number of draft picks you would be willing to give for Darnold?

 

[Buckybird]

Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold:
Two 1s
One 2

To get to 5 if Denver traded

I still don’t think it takes more than that

 

[HoodieBets]

Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold:
Two 1s
One 2

To get to 5 if Denver traded

I still don’t think it takes more than that

That’s not even close to a realistic offer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[juza76]

I think our possible trade partners considering the amount of picks we have and the several holes in the roster are Bucs(keim is friend of licth)and raiders

 

[Stout]

For the goal of coming up with a tally, what would be the maximum number of draft picks you would be willing to give for Darnold?

Considering it would have to be Cleveland and the 1st overall pick, 3 #1s, 3 #2s, and a 3rd. It ain't going to be cheap.