ESPN Radio Trade Speculation......

[JPlay]

Utah doesn't have any playmakers offensively. No weapons on the perimeter. And they desperately need a point.

 

[elindholm]

It doesn't really matter whether these trades have any chance of happening, since all we're really doing is discussing what players can or could bring to the Suns.

I don't like this trade. It's true that Kirilenko is a great defender, but my feeling is that perimeter defense is not the Suns' biggest concern. Between Marion and Johnson, they can offer credible defense against most penetrating guards or wings. (Yes, I know Tony Parker lit everybody up.) To me, the bigger problem is interior defense and defensive rebounding.

Marion's game might be underrated overall, but in my opinion his rebounding is overrated. How can the league's third leading rebounder be overrated, you ask? Because Marion doesn't deny position to the people he's rebounding against. If the rebound natually comes into his space -- and thanks to his quickness and jumping ability, it's a big space -- he'll get it. But think of the times this season when, with the game on the line, Marion came up with a clutch defensive rebound in a crowd. There just aren't many.

Only two teams in the league had two players in the top 20 for rebounds: Phoenix (Marion #3, 11.3; Stoudemire #17, 8.9) and Cleveland (Gooden #13, 9.2; Ilgauskas #19, 8.6). So why did the Suns continually get killed giving up offensive rebounds? Because it's not just the rebounds you get, it's the rebounds you prevent the other team from getting. Stoudemire finally started boxing out late in the playoff run, but Marion just isn't big enough to get "technique" rebounds against PFs and Cs. And of course it didn't help that Marion, guarding PFs, often needed help in the form of double teams, which would tend to leave opposing players wide open at the rim.

That's why I think the Suns' greater need is for a big man defender and rebounder. Marion's move to PF worked out great on the offensive end, and was even okay from the standpoint of first-shot defense, but it was a disaster on the boards. And that's true in spite of Marion's guady rebounding numbers. The big defender doesn't have to be Skinner, of course, but it can't be Kirilenko, because he just doesn't fit the mold.

And I don't want Harpring. He's a more complete offensive player than Richardson, but he doesn't have the range. Plus he's dorky looking.

 

[tobiazz]

And I don't want Harpring. He's a more complete offensive player than Richardson, but he doesn't have the range. Plus he's dorky looking.

rofl!

 

[Russ Smith]

It doesn't really matter whether these trades have any chance of happening, since all we're really doing is discussing what players can or could bring to the Suns.

I don't like this trade. It's true that Kirilenko is a great defender, but my feeling is that perimeter defense is not the Suns' biggest concern. Between Marion and Johnson, they can offer credible defense against most penetrating guards or wings. (Yes, I know Tony Parker lit everybody up.) To me, the bigger problem is interior defense and defensive rebounding.

Marion's game might be underrated overall, but in my opinion his rebounding is overrated. How can the league's third leading rebounder be overrated, you ask? Because Marion doesn't deny position to the people he's rebounding against. If the rebound natually comes into his space -- and thanks to his quickness and jumping ability, it's a big space -- he'll get it. But think of the times this season when, with the game on the line, Marion came up with a clutch defensive rebound in a crowd. There just aren't many.

Only two teams in the league had two players in the top 20 for rebounds: Phoenix (Marion #3, 11.3; Stoudemire #17, 8.9) and Cleveland (Gooden #13, 9.2; Ilgauskas #19, 8.6). So why did the Suns continually get killed giving up offensive rebounds? Because it's not just the rebounds you get, it's the rebounds you prevent the other team from getting. Stoudemire finally started boxing out late in the playoff run, but Marion just isn't big enough to get "technique" rebounds against PFs and Cs. And of course it didn't help that Marion, guarding PFs, often needed help in the form of double teams, which would tend to leave opposing players wide open at the rim.

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The other thing, without looking, is I would suspect because of the pace Phoenix plays at, they take more shots and miss more shots as do their opponents, thus more rebounds to go around.

AS an outsider(Warrior fan) the biggest issue I see with Phoenix is it's just too damn easy to get into the paint, and there's just too many easy layups or dunks allowed.

Nash is a great offensive player but he's at best a mediocre defender and he's particularly ineffective at keeping guys in front of him which is why he can't guard a guy like Parker.

I have the same issue with Stoudemire that I do with Kevin Garnett, great player, but their teams need them to be more dominant in the post. Garnett does not want to be a 7 footer, he wants to be a SF he wants to guard guys all over the floor when in many ways you can argue he'd help his team more as a dominant post defender swatting away shots and manning the middle. Stoudemire is smaller, but stronger and again he doesn't want to be a C he wants to be a PF. AT least amare took the challenge and played out of position, Garnett has essentially refused to do so for years. Amare should be a MUCH better rebounder than he is and a much better shot blocker than he is, that he's never averaged more than 1.6 BPG tells you he's not dominating in the paint as much as he could. But he's so good offensively you can certainly tolerate his rebounding and defense while you wait for him to improve in those areas. He was an absolute beast in the playoffs, especially in the San Antonio series.

 

[George O'Brien]

I happen to like AK's game, but it is clearly a tradeoff that doesn't do that much for either team unless you think AK can move inside and defend the post better than Marion. (Maybe).

IMHO opinion this is not a real deal because it means the Suns would trade an offense player for a defense oriented player. When was the last time they did that?

BTW, I don't take the notion of the Suns getting the #6 pick seriously in this proposal. If it was legit, I guess it might make the deal worth it to the Suns. Without it, I would seriously doubt it.

 

[elindholm]

IMHO opinion this is not a real deal because it means the Suns would trade an offense player for a defense oriented player.

It's certainly not a real deal. Your reason is a good one, but there are many others.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Even though it might be a little high to pick him, would Channing Frye be a good fit? Honestly, if they got this pick, and hit a home run with it, would they be able to afford to keep him? Meanwhile, if Frye develops into a good starting center for us, it'd absolutely be worth it.

C Channing Frye
PF Amaré Stoudemire
SF Andre Kirilenko
SG Joe Johnson
PG Steve Nash

Bench:
Jim Jackson
Matt Harpring
Leandro Barbosa
Steven Hunter?
Paul Shirley?
Second round picks...?

That sounds like a pretty devastating team.

Martinas is a long term prospect.. To me, he's another Big Jake, and I'm not too sure I want to see the Suns go that direction. Now Frye is a completely different story. His biggest weakness is that he lacks some inside toughness, but if working with Amare daily in practice doesn't toughen you up, nothing will.

As for this trade, I like Harpring and especially Kirilenko (he is a ball of energy and can play shut down D) but I don't like the idea of blowing the team up and starting a new. Truthfully, like a previous poster mentioned, when you're as close as the Suns are, tinkering here and there is nice but to trade Marion and Q Rich is a bit much for my tastes.

 

[elindholm]

I'm all for giving this group another go. But I can't help but think about the Suns from the late 80's, with Chambers, Johnson, Hornacek, and eventually Majerle. That was a very good team that came close for a few years but couldn't take the final step. Eventually they decided to trade three players from the eight-man core (Hornacek, Perry, and Lang) for Barkley, and that helped. But their window after the trade was pretty short, since Barkley was already getting on in years and Johnson's perennial hamstring problems were starting to catch up with him. Barkley wasn't available two years previously, but if he had been, that would have been the time to make the trade.

The key to the present Suns team is Nash. He can't keep going like this forever. If the Suns spend two or three years losing in the WCF and then decide it's time to make a trade, it will be too late. The Suns have the luxury of time with Stoudemire and Johnson (assuming both are re-signed), but not with Nash and not really with Marion, whose game will not translate well into his 30s.

I don't think the Suns should be desperate to make a trade this summer, and I'm sure they aren't. But if the right opportunity comes along, even if it involves a key player, I hope they'll seriously consider it. A trade never guarantees success, but neither does staying the course.

 

[George O'Brien]

Last summer I kept insisting the best trades are often the ones NOT made. There was quite a bit of support for the Marion AND JJ for McGrady deal - which I insisted was just too much. I suspect most Suns fans agree (though possibly not all).

The dangerous thing that happens when a team gets close to winning it all is they start making dumb trade to get over the top or get back quickly. Thunder Dan for Hot Rod was a classic example. Actually, the Suns went through a period in the mid to late 90's when a great many of their trades proved to be disasters.

In the long run, the way to build a strong team is to collect a lot of really good players, so if you do trade you don't have to give away stars. Swapping stars is usually the path to mediocrity.

 

[Russ Smith]

The key to the present Suns team is Nash. He can't keep going like this forever. If the Suns spend two or three years losing in the WCF and then decide it's time to make a trade, it will be too late. The Suns have the luxury of time with Stoudemire and Johnson (assuming both are re-signed), but not with Nash and not really with Marion, whose game will not translate well into his 30s.

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FWIW I wouldn't expect Nash to slow down too much in the near future, he's only 31 and from what I recall when he was at Santa Clara he was a legendary conditioning guy, worked harder on his own in the offseason than most guys work when controlled by a team conditioning expert.

Obviously in 2-3 years he's going to be at a point where you figure he might start breaking down but as far as I know he's one of the best conditioned athletes in the NBA.

I worry about Stoudemire though, I think you should trade him to Golden State for Dunleavy and the Warriors first pick.

 

[elindholm]

Thunder Dan for Hot Rod was a classic example.

Why? Because Williams didn't lead the Suns to a title? Majerle wasn't going to either. Majerle was a better player, but Williams gave them a chance. The chance didn't pan out, but it was worth trying.

I agree with you that most of this board was against a trade of Marion and Johnson for McGrady. I doubt that the Suns ever seriously considered the deal in that form.

 

[JPlay]

I worry about Stoudemire though, I think you should trade him to Golden State for Dunleavy and the Warriors first pick.

What? I hope that's a joke.

I say don't start tinkering with the team like Dallas does every year. This team is really young and needs to grow some more. As you can see in this years finals, defense still wins championships, especially with the way the refs call the playoffs still. We need to improve defensively and get an inside presence. You stil can't win without a good center.

 

[PhxGametime]

I worry about Stoudemire though, I think you should trade him to Golden State for Dunleavy and the Warriors first pick.

Send $3 Million cash and that's a deal! The Suns add another skillball player, etc. and the Warriors get a dominating F/C,...










and I ummm get the money.

 

[Russ Smith]

What? I hope that's a joke.

I say don't start tinkering with the team like Dallas does every year. This team is really young and needs to grow some more. As you can see in this years finals, defense still wins championships, especially with the way the refs call the playoffs still. We need to improve defensively and get an inside presence. You stil can't win without a good center.

Yes joking, I'm a Warrior fan.

The problem with we must get an inside presence is it's not all that easy to do. ONce you get to a point where you're drafting that late in the first round, it becomes even harder to get that key piece.

It's not as bad as it used to be because of all the Euros and underclassmen you somethimes get a good player later, but its' still the case in the NBA that you can get "stuck" where you're not good enough to win it all, but too good to get a high enough pick to put you over the top.

 

[JPlay]

Yes joking, I'm a Warrior fan.

The problem with we must get an inside presence is it's not all that easy to do. ONce you get to a point where you're drafting that late in the first round, it becomes even harder to get that key piece.

It's not as bad as it used to be because of all the Euros and underclassmen you somethimes get a good player later, but its' still the case in the NBA that you can get "stuck" where you're not good enough to win it all, but too good to get a high enough pick to put you over the top.

I don't think the Suns are close to that point. They are still way too young and Amare is still developing. JJ is looking like he can be a real star. If he was healthy things may have been different with SA. I think we need a perimeter defender, a backup PG and an interior rebounder and shotblocker.

PG- someone like Earl Watson
Perimeter defender- someone like Rubben Patterson or Gerald Wallace
Rebounder/Shotblocker-someone like Reggie Evans or Melvin Ely.

 

[coloradosun]

I happen to like AK's game, but it is clearly a tradeoff that doesn't do that much for either team unless you think AK can move inside and defend the post better than Marion. (Maybe).

IMHO opinion this is not a real deal because it means the Suns would trade an offense player for a defense oriented player. When was the last time they did that?

BTW, I don't take the notion of the Suns getting the #6 pick seriously in this proposal. If it was legit, I guess it might make the deal worth it to the Suns. Without it, I would seriously doubt it.

George

You just answered your own question of when did the Suns last trade offense for defense 4 posts after this one. Majerle for Williams.

I think at #6 you can get a player as athletic as Marion: Warrick, Granger Graham. At 21, its a gamble.

In FA there is no one like AK47 available that the Suns could afford, so the only way to get someone of his caliber is to create a trade.

As far as last summer we all know it was not and never going to be Marion and JJ for TMac.

 

[coloradosun]

I am begining to think that Utah might just pull the trigger on this, they have put themselves in a position to do so. Last summer was suppose to be a turnaround offseason. They had three 1st round draft choices, two courtesy of the Suns, one of which was traded away for a 1st rounder this year (#27). They had a lot of cap space, signed Okur and Boozer as RFA's. Yet a team that was just barely nudged out of the playoffs by a division rival, Denver, and had the worst record in the West. That has got to piss off an owner.

This summer they still have some cap space, 2 1st rounders and 3 second rounders. I don't think they have enough to get a impact player with their capspace. 2 first rounders are not going to turn the ship around right away. They can't trade Okur or Boozer, that would make them look foolish. They can't trade the first rounders from last year, Snyder and Humphries, they are the only athletes other than AK47. Players like Marion and Q could insert some desperately needed energy and experience immediately.

Utah might seriously consider this deal. Sloan is probably considering retirement and his offense might be out the door anyhow.

edit: forgot NO is now in the West.

Back to Utah's 2004 offseason. They also signed Arroyo and Giricek to 4 year, 4 M contracts. We all know what happened to Arroyo but Giricek did not do much to earn his money. Who ever their GM is, he has got to be pretty insecure about his job security. A trade as what is mentioned above could save his career if it works out.

BC on the other hand is coming off executive of the year, he might continue to go out on the limb instead of resting on his laurels.

Edit: another interesting footnote, Stockton is still involved with the Jazz, they may look at signing Dan Dickau (Gonzaga cohort) for an immediate fix at point guard and settle for Jarret Jack later in the draft. Dickau would be a great fit in Utah.

 

[Cheesebeef]

the reason I really don'tlike any major trades this offseason is that it sets us up as Dallas/Trailblazers Part II - The Blazers were so close to beating the Lakers and then they kept adding and subtracting players to make a team that had gone to the Conference Finals 2 years in a row a laughingstock of the league. Dallas continues to play musical chairs with their roster and it hasn't done squat for them either.

This isn't the offseason to panic and just start trading guys away - especially considering the undeniable chemistry on the team. If they get whupped again in the WCF next year then yeah - start tinkering - but give this group - with hopefully some depth more than one year together. Get some vets on the club - mix it up and give it another run. We were basicaly playing with 6 guys all season long - HUnter was and IS a marginal player out there and don't even get me starte don Barbosa at this point. When you compare those two guys with guys like Robert Horry, Brent Barry and Rasho Nesterivic or Antonio McDyess and Lindsay Hunter - it's easy to see why those teams (The Spurs and the Pistons) beat us and the Heat. Experience and depth are the keys for our club in the future - we got a nice dose of experience this year - this offseason is where hopefully we compliment that with some depth.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Back to Utah's 2004 offseason. They also signed Arroyo and Giricek to 4 year, 4 M contracts. We all know what happened to Arroyo but Giricek did not do much to earn his money. Who ever their GM is, he has got to be pretty insecure about his job security. A trade as what is mentioned above could save his career if it works out.

BC on the other hand is coming off executive of the year, he might continue to go out on the limb instead of resting on his laurels.

Edit: another interesting footnote, Stockton is still involved with the Jazz, they may look at signing Dan Dickau (Gonzaga cohort) for an immediate fix at point guard and settle for Jarret Jack later in the draft. Dickau would be a great fit in Utah.

Utah's GM is Kevin O'connor. I have a feeling his job is safe, the owner signed off on everything - and Larry Miller is pretty involved I think.

I didn't think Stockton was involved with the Jazz at all. Last I heard he was taking time away from bball.

 

[George O'Brien]

the reason I really don'tlike any major trades this offseason is that it sets us up as Dallas/Trailblazers Part II - The Blazers were so close to beating the Lakers and then they kept adding and subtracting players to make a team that had gone to the Conference Finals 2 years in a row a laughingstock of the league. Dallas continues to play musical chairs with their roster and it hasn't done squat for them either.

This isn't the offseason to panic and just start trading guys away - especially considering the undeniable chemistry on the team. If they get whupped again in the WCF next year then yeah - start tinkering - but give this group - with hopefully some depth more than one year together. Get some vets on the club - mix it up and give it another run. We were basicaly playing with 6 guys all season long - HUnter was and IS a marginal player out there and don't even get me starte don Barbosa at this point. When you compare those two guys with guys like Robert Horry, Brent Barry and Rasho Nesterivic or Antonio McDyess and Lindsay Hunter - it's easy to see why those teams (The Spurs and the Pistons) beat us and the Heat. Experience and depth are the keys for our club in the future - we got a nice dose of experience this year - this offseason is where hopefully we compliment that with some depth.

From what I can tell, Mark Cuban is calling the shots in Dallas these days. He has put together a talented team but doesn't really have a plan for solving their biggest problem - Dirk cannot defend. Amare doesn't know how, but has the ability to be pretty good. Dirk simply cannot defend and their team is built around him.

Portland's problems go well beyond shuffling players. They've always tried to get the most talented guys available without thinking about whether they fit together as a team. Is there an opposite to the concept of team chemistry?

 

[George O'Brien]

Thunder Dan for Hot Rod was a classic example.

Why? Because Williams didn't lead the Suns to a title? Majerle wasn't going to either. Majerle was a better player, but Williams gave them a chance. The chance didn't pan out, but it was worth trying.

Hot Rod had a history of injuries before the Suns got him and continued afterwards. BC followed up with a similar mistake when trading for Hardaway. Googs did not have a history of injuries, but Hardaway sure did and the Suns vastly overpaid to get him.

 

[asudevil83]

does anyone listen to 910AM here? some guy on the azcentral board said that 910 reported that Hunter was looking for a 5year $20mil contract. has anyone else heard this?

 

[Evil Ash]

does anyone listen to 910AM here? some guy on the azcentral board said that 910 reported that Hunter was looking for a 5year $20mil contract. has anyone else heard this?

I didn't hear this report but it sounds about right. The league has a ton of teams desperate for big men and there are quite a few GMs that would overpay for a 7 footer with athletic abilities. I'm still willing to bet that a few teams will offer him the full MLE just based on the flashes of potential he showed this past season.

Anyone that thinks we're going to be able to sign him to less than a $2 million per season contract is fooling themselves

 

[George O'Brien]

does anyone listen to 910AM here? some guy on the azcentral board said that 910 reported that Hunter was looking for a 5year $20mil contract. has anyone else heard this?

Me too.

Seriously, there are several big guys who are likely to get more attention than Hunter.

Eddie Curry rfa
Tyson Chandler rfa
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Dikembe Mutombo
Dale Davis
Zeljko Rebracca
Stromile Swift
Alonzo Mourning
Dan Gadzuric rfa
Zaza Pachulia rfa
Samuel Dalembert rfa
Jerome James
Vitaly Potapenko
Reggie Evans rfa
Kwame Brown rfa
Alan Henderson
Mikki Moore

Not many are a great fit for the Suns, but no one else insists on a center/pf who can run up and down the court like the Suns do.

 

[asudevil83]

I didn't hear this report but it sounds about right. The league has a ton of teams desperate for big men and there are quite a few GMs that would overpay for a 7 footer with athletic abilities. I'm still willing to bet that a few teams will offer him the full MLE just based on the flashes of potential he showed this past season.

Anyone that thinks we're going to be able to sign him to less than a $2 million per season contract is fooling themselves

i'd be willing to spend $6mil over 3 seasons....maybe $4 over 2 season so that if hunter turns into something he can get his due sooner.

a MLE type contract is ridiculous. not many teams really need him as much as we do. he can run up the floor and block.....AND THATS IT. he's got NO offensive game whatsoever, and cant shoot the FT.

if he were to improve his game, i'd love to keep him. but he hasnt shown me anything that says he worth more than $2mil.

just think that just under a year ago this guy could only get a one year guarranteed contract for the min.....now he's looking for the full MLE for 4 years. he hasnt improved THAT much. he's had MAYBE 4 good months of basketball.