ESPN Radio Trade Speculation......

[elindholm]

the problem with this trade is that it leaves Q to the bench.....and IMO he's paid way to much to be delegated to the bench.

I wouldn't be too worried about that. He's paid basically the same as Brian Cardinal. You need good bench players to be a contender, and good players cost money. Besides, as a sixth man on a "skill"-oriented team, he'd still get plenty of minutes.

Your three-way trade reams Memphis. They can't possibly have any interest in Voskuhl (remember they already have Tsakalidis!), and neither Richardson nor Harpring is better than Miller. So they get two mediocre wing players for one -- that's not much in the way of compensation for helping Swift get a nice deal somewhere else.

 

[Joe Mama]

My problem with the Sacramento trade idea is that I don't like Skinner. I mean he's OK, but I don't see him as the big man that's going to come in and really change things for the Phoenix Suns.

This other trade is a rip off for Memphis. They are better off allowing swift to sign somewhere else and keeping Mike Miller.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Couple things:

Suns get way to much in the three team trade. Memphis gets screwed.
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I would consider moving Marion for a few reasons:

-He is 27, he will need start relying on skill and IQ in the next 3-4 years and he doesn't have much of either right now.

-He could posisbly be upset about his role.

-His value is at an alltime high. I mean it is higher now that it ever will be.

With that said, I would be pissed if we did the Sac deal. I want nothing to do with Peja for Marion - in any form.

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The fact that Marion and AK47 have similar deal structures doesn't diminish the financial relief. AK47's deal is just starting, while Marion is half way in. There is about a 4 million dollar difference IIRC - year to year impact is a big deal.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Couple things:

Suns get way to much in the three team trade. Memphis gets screwed.
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I would consider moving Marion for a few reasons:

-He is 27, he will need start relying on skill and IQ in the next 3-4 years and he doesn't have much of either right now.

-He could posisbly be upset about his role.

-His value is at an alltime high. I mean it is higher now that it ever will be.

With that said, I would be pissed if we did the Sac deal. I want nothing to do with Peja for Marion - in any form.

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The fact that Marion and AK47 have similar deal structures doesn't diminish the financial relief. AK47's deal is just starting, while Marion is half way in. There is about a 4 million dollar difference IIRC - year to year impact is a big deal.

I'm starting to think Marion definitely WON'T be traded during the offseason, but if we have the same problems next year during the regular season, I can almost smell a mid-season deal using Marion to get the last piece of the puzzle - whatever that may be, I have no idea, but I just see a Marion trade coming sometime in the next 2 years. It's inevitable IMO - for all of the reasons you detailed above.

 

[George O'Brien]

I guess we have a new candidate for the Slin Slin wacky trade of the week award.

The AK 47 deal may not be a good idea, but it isn't wacky. The Brian Skinner deal is simply trading an all star for a career journeyman.

BTW, before deciding that Marion is a bum because of how he played against the Spurs, look at all the points the Pistons didn't score against the same defense.

 

[elindholm]

The Brian Skinner deal is simply trading an all star for a career journeyman.

Did you even read it? There was another minor player involved, but perhaps it's someone you haven't heard of.

 

[devilalum]

I'm starting to think Marion definitely WON'T be traded during the offseason, but if we have the same problems next year during the regular season, I can almost smell a mid-season deal using Marion to get the last piece of the puzzle - whatever that may be, I have no idea, but I just see a Marion trade coming sometime in the next 2 years. It's inevitable IMO - for all of the reasons you detailed above.

The only team we had any trouble with all year was SA. Why would the Suns trade Marion just to match up better with one team?

 

[elindholm]

Why would the Suns trade Marion just to match up better with one team?

Because that one team happens to be the best in the league. If you can beat the other 28 teams but not the best, what good does that do you?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Why would the Suns trade Marion just to match up better with one team?

Because that one team happens to be the best in the league. If you can beat the other 28 teams but not the best, what good does that do you?

give that man a prize! You have to create a team which can beat EVERYONE - not just 28 other teams.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Brian Skinner deal is simply trading an all star for a career journeyman.

Did you even read it? There was another minor player involved, but perhaps it's someone you haven't heard of.

I should have included a smile face, but in any case I don't think I'd trade Marion for Peja either. Marion is a decent defender. Peja isn't.

For this deal to make sense, I'd have to be convinced the Suns couldn't pick up someone at Skinner's level through the draft or free agency. Here is guy that the Bucks wouldn't match an MLE offer for a year ago and was on the bench for a weak rebounding Sixers team. He may be more of a real PF than the Sun's guys, but that doesn't make he more than a backup.

 

[elindholm]

For this deal to make sense, I'd have to be convinced the Suns couldn't pick up someone at Skinner's level through the draft or free agency.

Sure, I'd go along with that. I don't think that the Suns will be able to get someone at Skinner's level through the draft or free agency, but if they can, that changes things.

Still, for it to be a fair comparison, the Suns would really have to get two such players without making the trade. They'll have the draft and free agency whether they make a trade or not, so the trade provides a net addition in the "mediocre defensive big man" department, no matter how you slice it.

And while I certainly don't think Skinner is The Answer, I also think that (a) the Suns need more than one marginally competent backup big man -- Hunter simply wasn't adequate last season, and that was partly because there was only one of him, and (b) Stojakovic would fit the future Suns offense, which will apparently go through Stoudemire, better than Marion will.

 

[George O'Brien]

For this deal to make sense, I'd have to be convinced the Suns couldn't pick up someone at Skinner's level through the draft or free agency.

Sure, I'd go along with that. I don't think that the Suns will be able to get someone at Skinner's level through the draft or free agency, but if they can, that changes things.

Still, for it to be a fair comparison, the Suns would really have to get two such players without making the trade. They'll have the draft and free agency whether they make a trade or not, so the trade provides a net addition in the "mediocre defensive big man" department, no matter how you slice it.

And while I certainly don't think Skinner is The Answer, I also think that (a) the Suns need more than one marginally competent backup big man -- Hunter simply wasn't adequate last season, and that was partly because there was only one of him, and (b) Stojakovic would fit the future Suns offense, which will apparently go through Stoudemire, better than Marion will.

If this is mostly about offense, then perhaps I'd agree.

BTW, a guy who has similar stats but costs half as much is Sweetney.

Brian Skinner
Sacramento Kings
Position: C
Height: 6-9 Weight: 265
College : Baylor '98
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 4.8
RPG 5.7
APG .9
SPG .63
BPG 1.00
FG% .507
FT% .357
3P% .000
MPG 19.2

Michael Sweetney
New York Knicks
Position: F
Height: 6-8 Weight: 270
College : Georgetown '04
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 8.4
RPG 5.4
APG .6
SPG .35
BPG .36
FG% .531
FT% .749
3P% .000
MPG 19.6

 

[elindholm]

Skinner is (by reputation) a good defender, although I've already confessed I haven't seen him play much. I've watched a lot of Sweetney, however, and he is not a good defender. He's definitely better offensively, but the Knicks are pretty high on him anyway.

 

[tobiazz]

give that man a prize! You have to create a team which can beat EVERYONE - not just 28 other teams.

So next year we have to build to beat the Spurs, this year we should have built to Beat the Pistons, last year we should have built to beat the Lakers. I don't think so. The Suns would not have won 62 doing that. If the Suns change to be better vs the Spurs, they will just be a lesser version of the Spurs. Their composition makes them different than the Spurs, giving them some advantages and some disadvantages. There aren't any trades they can make that will make them as good defensively as the Spurs. And any that do would ruin their offense.

If you take the current Suns team, expect Amare to get better, hope Nash does not get much worse, hope for some better team D (the kind you get by fielding the same team for a few years), and add some bench depth you have your best chance of beating the Spurs next year. They should ONLY trade any core member if it is for a player that will obviously make them better (like the old Horny + Perry + Lang for Barkley trade). Not Marion for Peja or AK. The only trades that would be worth it are ones like Marion + JJ for Garnett, but those trades generally don't happen because of the lopsidedness.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

So next year we have to build to beat the Spurs, this year we should have built to Beat the Pistons, last year we should have built to beat the Lakers. I don't think so. The Suns would not have won 62 doing that. If the Suns change to be better vs the Spurs, they will just be a lesser version of the Spurs. Their composition makes them different than the Spurs, giving them some advantages and some disadvantages. There aren't any trades they can make that will make them as good defensively as the Spurs. And any that do would ruin their offense.

If you take the current Suns team, expect Amare to get better, hope Nash does not get much worse, hope for some better team D (the kind you get by fielding the same team for a few years), and add some bench depth you have your best chance of beating the Spurs next year. They should ONLY trade any core member if it is for a player that will obviously make them better (like the old Horny + Perry + Lang for Barkley trade). Not Marion for Peja or AK. The only trades that would be worth it are ones like Marion + JJ for Garnett, but those trades generally don't happen because of the lopsidedness.

You don't build to beat the Spurs or any particular team. You build to have the best team in the league. One that can take out any opponent - without a good amount of luck.

Could that be with this group? Possibly, but who knows. I have said from the beginning that the group earned another year, but I agree with Cheese that if it doesn't happen next season we need to move some people in order to retool.

Also, I hate to do this - being the homer that I am - but the 62 wins was a lot about luck (more so than normal).

1.) The team played relatively injury free. I would expect to see that their starters missed in the bottom 3 of player games missed.

2.) The Jackson holdout. This situation doesn't happen often, and the Suns were able to turn 2 non players and a bad role player into an incredible sixth man.

3.) Catching teams off guard with a totally radical style of play. We blew teams out in the beginning of the season because no one knew what to do. This will not happen again.

4.) The conditioning aspect. Back before the season I predicted the Pac crown simply because I thought the team would get off to a hot start then cool down (obviously not to the extremes) This is because the team played together a full month before camp. No other team did this. The team came into the season in amazing shape - and good familiarity. With all the player movement last summer this was very important. Most teams didn't get their legs under them until 10 games into the year - and didn't mesh with their new pieces until around then either. The Suns got a jump on everyone.


No I think this team would have won 55 looking back on it if they didn't have the advantages. I don't want to discount the 62 wins - but I want to express that this was simply a special season where things fell right. The likelyhood of us winning 62 next season in our current form isn't that good. (Not that mid 50s is a bad thing )

 

[Cheesebeef]

So next year we have to build to beat the Spurs, this year we should have built to Beat the Pistons, last year we should have built to beat the Lakers. I don't think so.

dude - what part of the "Suns need to field a team which can beat EVERYONE" did you not understand? Where did I say anything about beating one team?

As far as defense getting better with time - huh? Like the Kings defense did, or the Mavs defense did before Cuban went Trader Bob? Or the Magic with Penny and Shaq? Or the Suns with Barkley and the boys? Or the Suns with KJ, Horny and the boys? Defense doesn't just get magically better with time. That's a bit silly and completely unprovable.

As far as trades go - who knows, but I do know this - even when missing one of our best offensive players against Dallas we were still able to average 116 and even with Marion and Q going AWOL against the Spurs - not even shooting the ball - our offense still wasn't a problem - our Defense was. That's why I don't think that ultimately in the playoffs, losing Marion (if we were able to swing a deal to add some defense - don't know who that would be) wouldn't kill us.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You don't build to beat the Spurs or any particular team. You build to have the best team in the league. One that can take out any opponent - without a good amount of luck.

Could that be with this group? Possibly, but who knows. I have said from the beginning that the group earned another year, but I agree with Cheese that if it doesn't happen next season we need to move some people in order to retool.

Also, I hate to do this - being the homer that I am - but the 62 wins was a lot about luck (more so than normal).

1.) The team played relatively injury free. I would expect to see that their starters missed in the bottom 3 of player games missed.

2.) The Jackson holdout. This situation doesn't happen often, and the Suns were able to turn 2 non players and a bad role player into an incredible sixth man.

3.) Catching teams off guard with a totally radical style of play. We blew teams out in the beginning of the season because no one knew what to do. This will not happen again.

4.) The conditioning aspect. Back before the season I predicted the Pac crown simply because I thought the team would get off to a hot start then cool down (obviously not to the extremes) This is because the team played together a full month before camp. No other team did this. The team came into the season in amazing shape - and good familiarity. With all the player movement last summer this was very important. Most teams didn't get their legs under them until 10 games into the year - and didn't mesh with their new pieces until around then either. The Suns got a jump on everyone.


No I think this team would have won 55 looking back on it if they didn't have the advantages. I don't want to discount the 62 wins - but I want to express that this was simply a special season where things fell right. The likelyhood of us winning 62 next season in our current form isn't that good. (Not that mid 50s is a bad thing )

 

[George O'Brien]

dude - what part of the "Suns need to field a team which can beat EVERYONE" did you not understand? Where did I say anything about beating one team?

As far as defense getting better with time - huh? Like the Kings defense did, or the Mavs defense did before Cuban went Trader Bob? Or the Magic with Penny and Shaq? Or the Suns with Barkley and the boys? Or the Suns with KJ, Horny and the boys? Defense doesn't just get magically better with time. That's a bit silly and completely unprovable.

As far as trades go - who knows, but I do know this - even when missing one of our best offensive players against Dallas we were still able to average 116 and even with Marion and Q going AWOL against the Spurs - not even shooting the ball - our offense still wasn't a problem - our Defense was. That's why I don't think that ultimately in the playoffs, losing Marion (if we were able to swing a deal to add some defense - don't know who that would be) wouldn't kill us.

The Suns need to add a lot of depth, especially on the inside. One of the keys to playing good defense is insisting that everyone play defense or sit - which doesn't happen when you know that all the team has is Jake Voskuhl coming in off the bench.

However, I honestly feel the Suns need to hire a defense guru to focus on technique. Everyone needs to make their rotations quicker, anticipate where the opponent is going, and better rebounding technique. Maybe the current staff has the knowledge, but so far they haven't had the luck at selling defense the way they have selling running.

 

[cly2tw]

As far as trades go - who knows, but I do know this - even when missing one of our best offensive players against Dallas we were still able to average 116 and even with Marion and Q going AWOL against the Spurs - not even shooting the ball - our offense still wasn't a problem - our Defense was. That's why I don't think that ultimately in the playoffs, losing Marion (if we were able to swing a deal to add some defense - don't know who that would be) wouldn't kill us.

That's so true that many stats-obsessed posters don't want to see it. The offense in Suns is Nash-Amare and hopefully getting adjusted and expanded to Amare-Nash-JJ. Complementary players can be replaced rather easily without much drop in the SYSTEM's procduction, notwithstanding a complementary player being paid the max. Yet, many people are so fixed on saying we don't find a single player that will have the stats this guy had, forgetting it's about the total TEAM production and performance. More specifically, if Ben Wallace replaced Marion on the current team, I don't think our offense would suffer much in total despite expected low offensive numbers by Ben compared to Shawn.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

What if the rumored deal was simplified a bit?

Marion+Barbosa+21 for AK+#6+#34 works cap wise.

We trade Marion for some immediate financial relief - and long term as well. I don't know how many people remember this, but I am pretty sure AK's deal has payments deferred for 10 years or something. Same with Gasol's. We get back a similar player - do it all type - that is more defense than offense. Hopefully Amare picks up on rebounding and Joe on scoring.

We cut losses on Barbosa - and nab the #6.


It is a lot simpler than the propsed deal, and isn't as earthshattering as trading two starters - but the premise is the same. I mean we would probably get into the same contract talks in 2 seasons about Andrei's deal, but who cares? I am a fan of addressing issues when they come up, as long as you don't screw yourself in the process.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

BTW - any concerns of injuries with Andrei is overstated. He recovered perfectly from the knee injury, which is the only thing of worry. He broke his wrist playing basketball - it happens. It does not point to a tendency to get injured in any ways.

It isn't like he missed a season with an abdominal strain.

 

[George O'Brien]

That's so true that many stats-obsessed posters don't want to see it. The offense in Suns is Nash-Amare and hopefully getting adjusted and expanded to Amare-Nash-JJ. Complementary players can be replaced rather easily without much drop in the SYSTEM's procduction, notwithstanding a complementary player being paid the max. Yet, many people are so fixed on saying we don't find a single player that will have the stats this guy had, forgetting it's about the total TEAM production and performance. More specifically, if Ben Wallace replaced Marion on the current team, I don't think our offense would suffer much in total despite expected low offensive numbers by Ben compared to Shawn.

A key to the Suns offense is that it penalizes opponents that double team either Amare or Nash. Everyone in the starting lineup is capable of scoring 20 points without much trouble - especially if left open. The threat to score is just as important as the actual scoring in some cases.

If the Suns do pick up some inside help, I'm pretty sure the player will have to be pretty good on offense. That's why I like guys like Ike and Simien who can shoot a bit and most important, hit free throws.

 

[cly2tw]

If the Suns do pick up some inside help, I'm pretty sure the player will have to be pretty good on offense. That's why I like guys like Ike and Simien who can shoot a bit and most important, hit free throws.

Shooting from the big is a plus but not a must. The main issue is court smarts.
I think Reggie Evans from the Sonics would be perfect for this team. His positioning, both defensively and offensively, is great, like Ben or Rodman. People often claim that DA wouldn't play any big without scoring ability while referring to his not playing Jake and Outlaw at all while Hunter only limited. But they are all different from Evans. Jake is too slow, not strong enough, not as good at setting picks. Outlaw is squarely a husle player not suited for man-on defense to Duncan. Hunter just isn't smart enough on the court, particualrly on offensive end despite athletic.

In fact, if we don't like our chance already winning the title next season, I'd keep this team intact by trying to lure Evans with the MLE and draft somebody like Ike with good experience and hope Amare and Q improve on their defense and for the Suns to expand their offense with Nash offball.

 

[overseascardfan]

i just thought of something that kinda builds off the rumor from the original post.....with Phoenx, Memphis, and Utah doing a huge shuffle.

Utah Trades: $27,106,316
Boozer - $11,593,816
AK - $10,967,500
Harping - $4,545,000

Utah Recieves: $25,834,688
Swift - $6,500,000
Mike Miller - $6,750,000
Marion - $12,584,688

Memphis Trades: $12,950,000
Swift - $6,200,000 (S&T 5 year $37.5mil with $500,000 raises)
Mike Miller - $6,750,000

Memphis Recieves: $12,782,500
Q - $6,300,000
Harping - $4,545,000
Voskuhl - $1,937,500

Phoenix Trades: $20,822,188
Marion - $12,584,688
Q - $6,300,000
Voskuhl - $1,937,500

Phoenix Recieves: $22,561,316
Boozer - $11,593,816
AK - $10,967,500

Utah: after an extremely dissappointing season, they really need to think about moving some of their pieces. here they get some great talent for what they give up. Marion does the job of AK, while Swift replaces Boozer for cheap, and Miller does the job of Harping, but better.

Memphis: they get something for Swift. Q would probably fit in nice with Memphis. Harping and Voskuhl also give them more than $6.5mil in expiring contracts that could help them.

Phoenix: they get some nice pieces that could bring them over the top. a starting lineup of Amare/Boozer/AK/JJ/Nash would be AMAZING.

we could then draft Ike Diogu with the #21
sign Chris Anderson as a backup PF to a 3 year $9.3mil contract
resign Hunter to a 3 year $6.6mil contract
sign Jay Williams to a 2 year $2.5mil contract.

new lineup:
amare/hunter
boozer/anderson/diogu
ak/jjax
jj/barbs
nash/williams/barbs

it would also be nice to pry that #33 from Utah to draft McCants/Hodge as a backup for the SF/SG spot.

I like Boozer, but Kirilenko is coming off major knee surgery and his salary is going to skyrocket over the next couple of years which is a risk not worth taking.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I like Boozer, but Kirilenko is coming off major knee surgery and his salary is going to skyrocket over the next couple of years which is a risk not worth taking.

Kirilenko didn't have surgery on his knee. He simply had a bad sprain.