Everything wrong with Kyler vs Seattle Part II - Revenge of the checkdown

[daves]

I thought it was clear, but I will re-explain. There was a definite scheme change to have the ball out of the QBs hand as quickly as possible. The stats have been published already.

OK... I guess I'm not convinced that this was a scheme change, vs. a result of McCoy's better ability to read the defense and make quick decisions and throws post-snap, rather than waiting for receivers to become visibly open. Those same plays might've been there for Murray to make, but he may just not have been making them (as @BritCard has illustrated repeatedly).

...dave

 

[Stout]

Yes. Kliff FINALLY schemed his play calling to not allow Donald beat him. How many times have we asked him to do that? The big question is WHY he did it this game. The average time to throw was lowest since what, Warner? Is it because he thought that Kyler could beat Donald and didn't need to despite history saying otherwise? Or did he think that Colt could handle the scheme change? No one will ever know.

Yes

Yes

Not sure. But it could be.

Whether you see it, or believe it, there was an absolute scheme/play calling change. That absolutely contributed to Colt's and the Cards offensive success. Would Kyler have done the same, maybe. Probably not though considering his play so far this year. I certainly won't 'drop a mic' claiming to be omnipotent.

Cannot disagree more. I think Colt simply does better with the scheme. Did they do a few things differently? Sure, like run plays under center more, but can you picture KM agreeing to do that? I sure can't.

Colt was crisper and better prepared than Kyler has been. I think that was obvious.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Cannot disagree more. I think Colt simply does better with the scheme. Did they do a few things differently? Sure, like run plays under center more, but can you picture KM agreeing to do that? I sure can't.

Colt was crisper and better prepared than Kyler has been. I think that was obvious.

That is why it is a discussion after all. There was a clear game plan away from Donald.

 

[Red on White]

Colt seemed like he knew the O line would struggle, that's why he threw the ball instantly for the first 12 plays. No progressions, no stepping up in the pocket. Quick, instant releases to begin the game.

Didn't give the Rams a chance to exert pressure on him which I'm sure was their Plan A coming in.

Was very smart by Colt/Kliff to begin this way. Accept where we are weak and scheme to counter it. For once it felt like we'd planned adequately for the opposition and were a step ahead, instead of getting blindsided early and having to make adjustments during the game which usually happens. Once the Rams couldn't pressure Colt and adjusted to defend his quick throws, he did hold onto it longer, let plays evolve, went through progressions and he did it very well. Again, one step ahead. He seemed to have a very good feel for what the defence would do. Hopefully Kyler was watching.

I'm a Kyler defender but that our first well-schemed plan for the season didn't involve Kyler is certainly food for thought.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Colt seemed like he knew the O line would struggle, that's why he threw the ball instantly for the first 12 plays. No progressions, no stepping up in the pocket. Quick, instant releases to begin the game.

Didn't give the Rams a chance to exert pressure on him which I'm sure was their Plan A coming in.

Was very smart by Colt/Kliff to begin this way. Accept where we are weak and scheme to counter it. For once it felt like we'd planned adequately for the opposition and were a step ahead, instead of getting blindsided early and having to make adjustments during the game which usually happens. Once the Rams couldn't pressure Colt and adjusted to defend his quick throws, he did hold onto it longer, let plays evolve, went through progressions and he did it very well. Again, one step ahead. He seemed to have a very good feel for what the defence would do. Hopefully Kyler was watching.

I'm a Kyler defender but that our first well-schemed plan for the season didn't involve Kyler is certainly food for thought.

Exactly. There can be a debate on how much of the success was contributed to Colt or the game plan/play calling. The first 12 plays were an absolute switch of play calling.

 

[Stout]

Exactly. There can be a debate on how much of the success was contributed to Colt or the game plan/play calling. The first 12 plays were an absolute switch of play calling.

There can also be a debate as to how much the game plan/calling differences can be attributed to Kyler's lack of ability in a lot of areas. I seriously doubt Kyler could handle or would agree to the game plan KK developed last week.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

There can also be a debate as to how much the game plan/calling differences can be attributed to Kyler's lack of ability in a lot of areas. I seriously doubt Kyler could handle or would agree to the game plan KK developed last week.

For sure. Most of it is conjecture anyway since none of us have the inside knowledge needed to make it a fact. Fun either way.

 

[SteveKeimFan]

Kyler is done. His mental game is too weak.

We need a warrior with a big arm like Josh Allen.

 

[jf-08]

We need a warrior with a big arm like Josh Allen.

We had John Skelton.

 

[AZfaninMN]

Do we really thing that Kliff called his best game AND a 3rd string O line did well AND the receivers performed better (including an AJ TD) and all that happened despite Kyler being out and not because he was out?

McCoy was under center more because he's happy doing it, Kyler isn't. The receivers and O line looked better and the passing attack more fluid because McCoy can read a defense and throw with timing and rhythm.

I do think Kliff called his best game. He and the offense stayed ahead of the sticks and didn’t force Colt into 3rd and longs. He kept the defense honest by running plays from under center and utilizing rollouts to move the pocket. He moved Nuk around in formation, knowing Ramsey would most likely follow giving away the coverage they were in. Ramsey follows man, if not it’s done. Lastly, and most importantly in my opinion, he didn’t run fast motions with Rondale Moore and have him either catch a screen or stand next to the sideline as a check down. Rondale was finally used as a WR instead of a gadget tool.

For a 3rd string offensive line, yes they played fine, but that doesn’t mean they played good. Like I said earlier, the lack of run game is concerning and our best runs of the game happened when we were under center. The quick passing game helped in the passing game, but no holes in the running game and, at times, if colt hadn’t delivered a quick ball, he would’ve been sacked. On the play that he hurt his knee, Donald was in so fast on a screen pass that he threw it into the ground and called for intentional grounding. (Example off the top of my head)

The WRs played great. Green made 2 great catches, Rondale had a 1 handed catch, and Nuk made a great contested ball catch. For every great catch was a drop that left yards on the field too. Nuk had one on a high throw that he told Colt was his fault. Stephen Anderson had a bad one in the flat too.

Do you have a link stating Kyler doesn’t like playing under center? Many have said it, but I haven’t found an article with him saying this.

Yes, McCoy is better at reading defenses. Kyler has never been asked to do this before entering the NFL and needs to do the work to get better at it. Colt played a lot of college football and has been in the league for 13 years now. I don’t believe he did much of reading the defenses in college and has worked in the NFL to get where he is now.

 

[nashman]

I do think Kliff called his best game. He and the offense stayed ahead of the sticks and didn’t force Colt into 3rd and longs. He kept the defense honest by running plays from under center and utilizing rollouts to move the pocket. He moved Nuk around in formation, knowing Ramsey would most likely follow giving away the coverage they were in. Ramsey follows man, if not it’s done. Lastly, and most importantly in my opinion, he didn’t run fast motions with Rondale Moore and have him either catch a screen or stand next to the sideline as a check down. Rondale was finally used as a WR instead of a gadget tool.

For a 3rd string offensive line, yes they played fine, but that doesn’t mean they played good. Like I said earlier, the lack of run game is concerning and our best runs of the game happened when we were under center. The quick passing game helped in the passing game, but no holes in the running game and, at times, if colt hadn’t delivered a quick ball, he would’ve been sacked. On the play that he hurt his knee, Donald was in so fast on a screen pass that he threw it into the ground and called for intentional grounding. (Example off the top of my head)

The WRs played great. Green made 2 great catches, Rondale had a 1 handed catch, and Nuk made a great contested ball catch. For every great catch was a drop that left yards on the field too. Nuk had one on a high throw that he told Colt was his fault. Stephen Anderson had a bad one in the flat too.

Do you have a link stating Kyler doesn’t like playing under center? Many have said it, but I haven’t found an article with him saying this.

Yes, McCoy is better at reading defenses. Kyler has never been asked to do this before entering the NFL and needs to do the work to get better at it. Colt played a lot of college football and has been in the league for 13 years now. I don’t believe he did much of reading the defenses in college and has worked in the NFL to get where he is now.

Excellent post with some objective views!

 

[Outerlimits]

"McCoy is better at reading defenses". Or "hopefully Kyler learned some from watching McCoy"

Kyler is in year 4 of his NFL career and just got paid a quarter of a billion dollars to be our franchise QB. The odds of him suddenly changing his approach to the game(studying, leadership) are slim to none at this point.

The fact our offense looked the best all year with a 36 year old career backup is frankly depressing.

 

[AZ Native]

We had John Skelton.

But we didn't have to pay him a quarter of a billion dollars.

 

[BritCard]

Yes. Kliff FINALLY schemed his play calling to not allow Donald beat him. How many times have we asked him to do that? The big question is WHY he did it this game. The average time to throw was lowest since what, Warner? Is it because he thought that Kyler could beat Donald and didn't need to despite history saying otherwise? Or did he think that Colt could handle the scheme change? No one will ever know.

Yes

Yes

Not sure. But it could be.

Whether you see it, or believe it, there was an absolute scheme/play calling change. That absolutely contributed to Colt's and the Cards offensive success. Would Kyler have done the same, maybe. Probably not though considering his play so far this year. I certainly won't 'drop a mic' claiming to be omnipotent.

You mean McCoy was under center more because he can play under center? You think Kliff wouldn't like to do that more considering he just did?

You don't think this is an issue with Kyler?

 

[BritCard]

I do think Kliff called his best game. He and the offense stayed ahead of the sticks and didn’t force Colt into 3rd and longs. He kept the defense honest by running plays from under center and utilizing rollouts to move the pocket. He moved Nuk around in formation, knowing Ramsey would most likely follow giving away the coverage they were in. Ramsey follows man, if not it’s done. Lastly, and most importantly in my opinion, he didn’t run fast motions with Rondale Moore and have him either catch a screen or stand next to the sideline as a check down. Rondale was finally used as a WR instead of a gadget tool.

For a 3rd string offensive line, yes they played fine, but that doesn’t mean they played good. Like I said earlier, the lack of run game is concerning and our best runs of the game happened when we were under center. The quick passing game helped in the passing game, but no holes in the running game and, at times, if colt hadn’t delivered a quick ball, he would’ve been sacked. On the play that he hurt his knee, Donald was in so fast on a screen pass that he threw it into the ground and called for intentional grounding. (Example off the top of my head)

The WRs played great. Green made 2 great catches, Rondale had a 1 handed catch, and Nuk made a great contested ball catch. For every great catch was a drop that left yards on the field too. Nuk had one on a high throw that he told Colt was his fault. Stephen Anderson had a bad one in the flat too.

Do you have a link stating Kyler doesn’t like playing under center? Many have said it, but I haven’t found an article with him saying this.

Yes, McCoy is better at reading defenses. Kyler has never been asked to do this before entering the NFL and needs to do the work to get better at it. Colt played a lot of college football and has been in the league for 13 years now. I don’t believe he did much of reading the defenses in college and has worked in the NFL to get where he is now.

I agree all those areas were better but people seem to be suggesting they are better completely independently of Kyler not starting. As if they all just decided to be better.

And not the far more obvious answer that they were all better at the same time BECAUSE Kyler was not starting.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

You mean McCoy was under center more because he can play under center? You think Kliff wouldn't like to do that more considering he just did?

You don't think this is an issue with Kyler?

I think KM playing under center gives him more options

Play action and roll outs would really help him a lot IMO

 

[BritCard]

I think KM playing under center gives him more options

Play action and roll outs would really help him a lot IMO

We all agree. I'm sure Kliff agrees to. He didn't just discover under center in the last game.

Which is why I'm pretty sure it's an issue with the guy that's played shotgun his whole career.

 

[Stout]

I agree all those areas were better but people seem to be suggesting they are better completely independently of Kyler not starting. As if they all just decided to be better.

And not the far more obvious answer that they were all better at the same time BECAUSE Kyler was not starting.

Agreed.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You mean McCoy was under center more because he can play under center? You think Kliff wouldn't like to do that more considering he just did?

You don't think this is an issue with Kyler?

No. I have been very clear multiple times now. Getting the ball out quickly, not being under center.

 

[BritCard]

No. I have been very clear multiple times now. Getting the ball out quickly, not being under center.

Really don't think thats a Kliff thing. I think that's very much a McCoy thing.

He's doing all the work pre snap so he knows where he's going to go with the ball and doesn't have to stand around post snap waiting to see a guy clearly open.

I found it interesting during Hard Knocks that Kliff twice called the pass pre snap. On the AJ Green TD and the big 4th down play to Rondale Kliff saw the same thing pre snap that Colt did. They felt much more on the same page than he seems to be with Kyler.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Really don't think thats a Kliff thing. I think that's very much a McCoy thing.

He's doing all the work pre snap so he knows where he's going to go with the ball and doesn't have to stand around post snap waiting to see a guy clearly open.

I found it interesting during Hard Knocks that Kliff twice called the pass pre snap. On the AJ Green TD and the big 4th down play to Rondale Kliff saw the same thing pre snap that Colt did. They felt much more on the same page than he seems to be with Kyler.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[AZfaninMN]

I agree all those areas were better but people seem to be suggesting they are better completely independently of Kyler not starting. As if they all just decided to be better.

And not the far more obvious answer that they were all better at the same time BECAUSE Kyler was not starting.

Players are human and will have good and bad days. If Colt plays again this week, we’ll see if they have another good day. If they do, then we can start making claims that they are playing better because Kyler is not starting. Using one game as an absolute is how players like Matt Flynn and Brock Osweiler can swindle franchises.

 

[Stout]

Players are human and will have good and bad days. If Colt plays again this week, we’ll see if they have another good day. If they do, then we can start making claims that they are playing better because Kyler is not starting. Using one game as an absolute is how players like Matt Flynn and Brock Osweiler can swindle franchises.

Nah, that's moving the goal posts. Just about everyone was curious to see how this offense would run with Colt, to see how big a problem Kyler has been. Now we're getting a loooot of excuses about how this game meant nothing and we have to see another game before we can know anything. Then if Colt does good again, the excuses will come pouring in about how we need and extended run of games, or the rest of the season, to know for sure. It's pretty clear that, with Colt, the offense simply ran smoother. No excuses, no yeah buts, it was simply smoother.

Not pointing the finger at you here, @AZfaninMN, because you've been pretty even keeled on this topic. I just don't agree that we need to wait for Colt to have another good day first. Because the extended logic to that is if our career backup QB does poorly against a really good defense, the Kyler excuses will just start flooding in. And, for my money, we've seen enough to know that Kyler is a big problem.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Nah, that's moving the goal posts. Just about everyone was curious to see how this offense would run with Colt, to see how big a problem Kyler has been. Now we're getting a loooot of excuses about how this game meant nothing and we have to see another game before we can know anything. Then if Colt does good again, the excuses will come pouring in about how we need and extended run of games, or the rest of the season, to know for sure. It's pretty clear that, with Colt, the offense simply ran smoother. No excuses, no yeah buts, it was simply smoother.

Not pointing the finger at you here, @AZfaninMN, because you've been pretty even keeled on this topic. I just don't agree that we need to wait for Colt to have another good day first. Because the extended logic to that is if our career backup QB does poorly against a really good defense, the Kyler excuses will just start flooding in. And, for my money, we've seen enough to know that Kyler is a big problem.

Kyler is a big problem. I’m looking at colt starting another game to better quantify what we have in kliff.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Kyler is a big problem. I’m looking at colt starting another game to better quantify what we have in kliff.

I thought it was interesting that you didn't see presnap penalties. Take away all the BS presnap issues we've seen with Kyler out there and the team would likely be significantly better.

What if Kyler is the one constantly screwing it up? What if he is struggling to understand the defense and where he should go with the ball? What if he is being combative with Kliff about the playcalls? There are a lot of things that could be going on that we just can't see right now.

I've given (and still give) Kliff a lot more slack because of what we have see Colt do in now 4 starts. The team looks totally different with a guy that is significantly less talented. The difference is game management at the QB position. Kyler needs to actually learn from Colt.