For Those of You Who Continue to Apologize for Sarver

[chickenhead]

Offering your GM a pay cut after a major improvement in both regular season record and playoff performance is cheap. If he did it because he has someone else in mind and wanted Kerr to walk, it is ugly.

 

[Mainstreet]

Maybe Sarver is still peeved about the Porter hire. I presume Kerr was a big part of it. Then Gentry was hired on the cheap and has done a great job. Although Kerr can be given credit for the Gentry hire I suppose, but it was not plan "A" and it cost Sarver I believe 2 M in a poor hire in Porter. I bet this still irks Sarver. However, this does not explain the departure of Griffin.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe Sarver is still peeved about the Porter hire. I presume Kerr was a big part of it. Then Gentry was hired on the cheap and has done a great job. Although Kerr can be given credit for the Gentry hire I suppose, but it was not plan "A" and it cost Sarver I believe 2 M in a poor hire in Porter. I bet this still irks Sarver. However, this does not explain the departure of Griffin.

Sarver didn't want a high priced coach with a track record of success to coach a team who was a title contender so we got Porter, a mediocre at best coach who could come on the cheap. you get what you paid for.

 

[Chaplin]

you're right... as far as winning a title, you can't be afford to be stupid with your money. He was stupid with JJ and I believe it cost us a title or two. He was then stupid by trying to go cheap with an awful HC in Porter and that's costing us now. And now he's being stupid with Kerr and ultimately all these decisions will start effecting the bottom line. thank you for making my points for me. Sarver's stupid decisions with money have cost us titles and I believe in the near future, it's gonna cost him revenue.

I tend to agree with you on the current situation, but the JJ thing is just getting out of hand with the false information you are believing.

True, there was a 5 million disagreement at the start of negotiations, but once Atlanta ponied up with their huge contract, Sarver gave in and told JJ that he would match it for him to stay in Phoenix. JJ himself told Sarver he didn't want to stay in Phoenix anymore. People will believe it's because of the early negotiations, but I think it was more about JJ wanting to be "the man" and his relationship with Amare Stoudemire. There was no way JJ was going to be the #1 option on the Phoenix Suns. Even if he was still with the team now, he wouldn't be the #1 option. In Atlanta, he automatically became the #1 guy on that team. That coupled with a big contract was a no-brainer for a selfish pro athlete.

Sarver screwed up by not giving him that extra money to begin with, but hindsight is always 20/20. We should have given it to him based on what happened after that, but at the time, Joe Johnson was terribly inconsistent and was generally considered overpaid.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

These two quotes bother me greatly in light of matt self's comments the other day:

"Robert and I have been meeting over the course of the last couple weeks and one of the things we discussed was our organization and if I were to leave, which obviously was the decision ultimately, how could we make sure we're stable going forward. The answer is Robert knows how many great people we have in here. He and I talked about how important it is to keep that stability. He is committed to that. He doesn't want to lose the people in this building. There's a reason we have the fourth highest winning percentage in NBA history, the third highest winning percentage in the last six years since Robert took over. It's because we have great players but it's because we have great people, a lot of whom are sitting in this room right now who have helped put together this team and who have helped run this organization. We don't have this mass exodus going on. We have a lot of people who are staying here and who are continuing to make this organization what it is and keep us strong."

why do i have difficulty believing this???

"Therein lies the problem. For an organization that was so successful this season, morale around US Airways Center remains an issue. It's the big stuff, such as having to haggle over contracts on the heels of a profitable postseason. And the little stuff, such as Jason Richardson paying for teammates' breakfasts during the playoffs when a team normally would pick up the tab."

very old cardinals-esque

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe Sarver is still peeved about the Porter hire. I presume Kerr was a big part of it. Then Gentry was hired on the cheap and has done a great job. Although Kerr can be given credit for the Gentry hire I suppose, but it was not plan "A" and it cost Sarver I believe 2 M in a poor hire in Porter. I bet this still irks Sarver. However, this does not explain the departure of Griffin.

Was Kerr GM when Gentry was hired as an assistant to D'Antoni?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I tend to agree with you on the current situation, but the JJ thing is just getting out of hand with the false information you are believing.

The "false information I'm believing"? What false info? They were 5 million apart in 2004 and Sarver made a dumb decision, against the Colangelo's protests to make JJ wait, even though he had come on incredibly strong in his third season (which is the time that young players usually come on). I thought it was dumb at the time and I do now. That's not hindsight. It's foresight.

True, there was a 5 million disagreement at the start of negotiations, but once Atlanta ponied up with their huge contract, Sarver gave in and told JJ that he would match it for him to stay in Phoenix.

That's great and all, but you're talking about two different off-seasons. If he hadn't made what I deemed a stupid decision in 2004, he would have been signed and there never would have been an Atlanta standoff.

JJ himself told Sarver he didn't want to stay in Phoenix anymore. People will believe it's because of the early negotiations, but I think it was more about JJ wanting to be "the man" and his relationship with Amare Stoudemire. There was no way JJ was going to be the #1 option on the Phoenix Suns. Even if he was still with the team now, he wouldn't be the #1 option. In Atlanta, he automatically became the #1 guy on that team. That coupled with a big contract was a no-brainer for a selfish pro athlete.

so, I'm believing "false information", yet you can surmise all of this as the truth?

Sarver screwed up by not giving him that extra money to begin with, but hindsight is always 20/20. .

again, it's not hindsight if you were saying it was stupid AT THE TIME. I thought it was stupid then and I thought low-balling AGAIN when he reached FA before even met with the Hawks was even worse.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I think there's a big difference between Sarver's Suns and the Cardinals of the past. For one thing, the Suns routinely win games.

We'll see about that. Sarver is still living off the work of the prior regime, once Nash/Amare are gone we'll see what ol Low Ball Bobby does. To give him credit for succeeding mostly because of the other regimes players is premature.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We'll see about that. Sarver is still living off the work of the prior regime, once Nash/Amare are gone we'll see what ol Low Ball Bobby does. To give him credit for succeeding mostly because of the other regimes players is premature.

Hey, I'm not saying he couldn't turn us into the Cards of the 90's, just that he hasn't done so yet. We're all so far removed from the inner circle (and I'd include most journalists in our group) that it really is hard to tell just what's going on. We get hints when someone like a Steve Kerr walks away from a position that he clearly didn't want to leave but we're still just trying to put together a puzzle with several pieces missing.

Steve

 

[hsandhu]

I tend to agree with you on the current situation, but the JJ thing is just getting out of hand with the false information you are believing.

True, there was a 5 million disagreement at the start of negotiations, but once Atlanta ponied up with their huge contract, Sarver gave in and told JJ that he would match it for him to stay in Phoenix. JJ himself told Sarver he didn't want to stay in Phoenix anymore. People will believe it's because of the early negotiations, but I think it was more about JJ wanting to be "the man" and his relationship with Amare Stoudemire. There was no way JJ was going to be the #1 option on the Phoenix Suns. Even if he was still with the team now, he wouldn't be the #1 option. In Atlanta, he automatically became the #1 guy on that team. That coupled with a big contract was a no-brainer for a selfish pro athlete.

Sarver screwed up by not giving him that extra money to begin with, but hindsight is always 20/20. We should have given it to him based on what happened after that, but at the time, Joe Johnson was terribly inconsistent and was generally considered overpaid.

jj was restricted, it doesn't matter if he told suns not to match. they could match, bring him back, and eventually he would've played great for them.

one of the main arguments at the time was if you match jj, then after 06-07 you would have to trade marion.

um, ok was there really an argument there as to who you would rather have? sadly there was, and i think it's pretty clear who was best in the long run.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columni%ADst=adande_ja&page=kerrsuns-100616

Keep telling yourselves that everything will be alright...

" "Kerr wanted a little raise, Sarver wanted him to take a pay cut," one source said. "There's no other way to spin it."

Well, a second source indicated it wasn't as simple as a money grab by Kerr. He wanted more money for the coaching staff, video crew, front-office secretaries -- all the people who helped produce this unexpected trip to the conference finals that yielded more than $10 million in extra revenue from eight home playoff games. Except when Kerr went to bat with Sarver, "The guy just bludgeoned Steve," the second source said.

So Kerr's out. Stoudemire's next.

"Amare's done," according to the source. "He's gone."

" The way things went down this week "took all the joy out of everything that happened this year," the second source said.

And it gave us one fewer reason to look forward to next year. "

What a POS. My favorite team is getting dismantled, after being two games away from the finals.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Hey, I'm not saying he couldn't turn us into the Cards of the 90's, just that he hasn't done so yet. We're all so far removed from the inner circle (and I'd include most journalists in our group) that it really is hard to tell just what's going on. We get hints when someone like a Steve Kerr walks away from a position that he clearly didn't want to leave but we're still just trying to put together a puzzle with several pieces missing.

Steve

I hate to jump to conclusions, but considering his negotiations in the past, and the circumstances of Kerr's departure, it seems pretty clear what is going on here. Combine that with source after source coming with the same information, putting 2 and 2 together isn't too difficult.

The biggest red flag of them all has to be the departure of Griffin. Griffin, who grew up a Suns fan, and has been with the organization for 18 freaking years has decided to quit on the Suns. Somebody who has more passion for the team than probably any of us (which is saying something) deserting the team. If that isn't a huge item of concern, I can't imagine what would be.

 

[Covert Rain]

We'll see about that. Sarver is still living off the work of the prior regime, once Nash/Amare are gone we'll see what ol Low Ball Bobby does. To give him credit for succeeding mostly because of the other regimes players is premature.

I 100% agree. The infrastructure of this organization is still very much Jerry's. Under Sarver's regime, we have lost free agents, gave up future draft picks, changed coaches twice and now lost a GM. Many of which were motivated financially.

The fact that this team is still winning is only because of what Jerry built before Sarver got here. IMO, the ONLY reason Sarver has spent what he has so far is because the team, albeit last season, has been a winner and perennial playoff off team. He couldn't sell to the public blowing it up when he took over this team.

Seriously, Sarver's track record so far should have every Suns fans worried about the future of this franchise. What is going to happen when Steve, Hill and possibly Amare are not here and he does blow it up? Where will that motivation be for him to spend money then? Remember that Sarver in his own words stated he doesn't mind spending money if the team is winning. Now we know it's not entirely true. He will just move money around or make other cuts to help offset what he spends on players even if that means cutting front office salaries our being cheap with players on the road.

We know if you start over there won't be much winning and I doubt he spends in that case.

Now with media reports coming out that Sarver's "environment" has moral really low in the front office and stories like Jason Richardson picking up the teams breakfast tab because Sarver is too cheap.

He might not be the second coming of Bill but he is sure looking like he is built in the same mold. I hope I am wrong because the last thing the Suns needs is an owner who cares more about hit bottom line then winning. Especially, when you are a franchise that is one of the most consistent winners in all professional sports without a title and still searching for it's first.

 

[Cheesebeef]

jj was restricted, it doesn't matter if he told suns not to match. they could match, bring him back, and eventually he would've played great for them.

one of the main arguments at the time was if you match jj, then after 06-07 you would have to trade marion.

um, ok was there really an argument there as to who you would rather have? sadly there was, and i think it's pretty clear who was best in the long run.

agree with this too. I couldn't believe it back then when people thought there was actually a discussion as to who was more valuable JJ or Marion.

 

[Chaplin]

agree with this too. I couldn't believe it back then when people thought there was actually a discussion as to who was more valuable JJ or Marion.

You can't be serious. Everyone was complaining about how inconsistent JJ was at the time. That was a huge problem that was talked about ad nauseum on this board. Marion was a better player at the time, no question about it. I'll concede that that changed fairly quickly after JJ left.

 

[SunsTzu]

Was Kerr GM when Gentry was hired as an assistant to D'Antoni?

No, he's been with the Suns since 2004.

 

[AzStevenCal]

um, ok was there really an argument there as to who you would rather have? sadly there was, and i think it's pretty clear who was best in the long run.

AFAIC, if it really was clear who we'd be better off with than the answer is Marion. If we had matched, IMO, we WOULD NOT have been improved. JJ would have been the most overpaid player in the game (by far) and he still would have been unhappy. This is a very fragile personality and his dour attitude would have destroyed the clubhouse.

There's a reason he went from being a star rookie to the trading block so quickly in Boston. The guy is one of the best examples in this league of a mentally soft player. He had the physical tools to almost rival Michael Jordan but that's where the comparisons end.

I'm not even sure if we'd have been better off with JJ had we initially met his asking price. I think we might have done well for one season (perhaps even a championship) but he's the kind of guy that would have quickly grown dissatisfied with his position on the team and even his new salary. This guy quits on his teammates like no one's business and he would have done the same to us. Granted, with a championship under our belt, we'd probably forgive the guy when his true colors showed. But if we still came up short, we'd have an untenable salary situation and a screwed up locker room.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

No, he's been with the Suns since 2004.

So for those people that keep saying it, how can Kerr be credited for Alvin Gentry? If anything, Gentry's ascension as head coach could be attributed to Sarver for not wanting to spend big money to get a big-name head coach.

 

[AzStevenCal]

agree with this too. I couldn't believe it back then when people thought there was actually a discussion as to who was more valuable JJ or Marion.

I think the JJ vs Marion could be argued forever and it wouldn't make a difference. Neither one should have been a near max player. I think (in their prime) they both make excellent number 3 guys but I'd hate to have either one as my 2nd best player. They're both mentally soft.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

More fallout on the departure of Griffin:

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/86672

"Griffin has been with the team since 1993, starting as a media relations intern and quickly working his way into a basketball operations position by 1997. He became a video coordinator who ran the Suns' statistical databases for the draft. He was a self-proclaimed "fantasy nerd" working in a dream job as a Phoenix native and lifelong Suns fan who cried as a 7-year-old kid when Ricky Sobers was traded."

"Griffin and Kerr shared a vision for the future of the franchise. Without Kerr, Griffin could no longer connect to the direction of the club."

 

[Covert Rain]

You can't be serious. Everyone was complaining about how inconsistent JJ was at the time. That was a huge problem that was talked about ad nauseum on this board. Marion was a better player at the time, no question about it. I'll concede that that changed fairly quickly after JJ left.

I remember that most of the talk was about how inconsistent his offense was. However, JJ was always a good defensive player. Despite that, I don't recall very many people clammering to let him go or trade him.

You have to put that complaining in perspective. Most people were saying that the Suns needed more consistent scoring because of Marion's perceived disappearing act at times. The expectation was that it would come from Joe.

That's a far cry from linking that complaining to fans wanting Joe to go.

 

[Chaplin]

I remember that most of the talk was about how inconsistent his offense was. However, JJ was always a good defensive player. Despite that, I don't recall very many people clammering to let him go or trade him.

You have to put that complaining in perspective. Most people were saying that the Suns needed more consistent scoring because of Marion's perceived disappearing act at times. The expectation was that it would come from Joe.

That's a far cry from linking that complaining to fans wanting Joe to go.

I never said that. I'm saying that everyone here saying that Joe Johnson was this star for the Suns are wrong. He wasn't a star and didn't deserve to be paid like one at the time. Atlanta took a chance, and it worked out for them.

 

[Mainstreet]

Was Kerr GM when Gentry was hired as an assistant to D'Antoni?

I believe BC hired Gentry as an assistant coach to DA.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I remember that most of the talk was about how inconsistent his offense was. However, JJ was always a good defensive player. Despite that, I don't recall very many people clammering to let him go or trade him.

You have to put that complaining in perspective. Most people were saying that the Suns needed more consistent scoring because of Marion's perceived disappearing act at times. The expectation was that it would come from Joe.

That's a far cry from linking that complaining to fans wanting Joe to go.

There were a lot of people on this board that were against JJ and his quest for more money. He was demanding a contract that was well above what he'd been worth in the past. His defense was solid at times but he was often unfocused. He had finished the previous season strongly and that left us with dreams of greatness for the guy but he'd hardly proved himself.

I'm sure there were several people that thought he was worth his demands but there were a lot of us that didn't. I'd have paid what he was asking but I would have considered it a huge gamble that was only worth it because of how close we were to the promised land.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

There were a lot of people on this board that were against JJ and his quest for more money. He was demanding a contract that was well above what he'd been worth in the past. His defense was solid at times but he was often unfocused. He had finished the previous season strongly and that left us with dreams of greatness for the guy but he'd hardly proved himself.

I'm sure there were several people that thought he was worth his demands but there were a lot of us that didn't. I'd have paid what he was asking but I would have considered it a huge gamble that was only worth it because of how close we were to the promised land.

Steve

I'm with you Steve, surprisingly enough.